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EVE API and Public CREST discussion

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iLLeLogicaL
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#301 - 2014-05-06 16:25:47 UTC
Just make sure that you disable auto signature update in wh space then.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#302 - 2014-05-06 16:29:18 UTC
iLLeLogicaL wrote:
Just make sure that you disable auto signature update in wh space then.

Incidentally, they are thinking about doing just this; to make new wormhole signatures delay their appearance on scanners while they are new. There were some dev posts about it, but I can't be arsed to dig them up.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#303 - 2014-05-06 16:29:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
CCP Prism X wrote:


I repeat: This is not data you have access to except through the API. Hence it should not be in the API. This goes for all data returned from it. The API is allowed to make your life easier, but it's not allowed to expose information you have no access to elsewhere.



Hey guy, when did this become the new CCP policy? Are you sure you want to go down this road with us because we will throw a laundry list of things that are not in the client?. How about this one *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal., if you copy a Killmail of a Carrier from the client, none of the items in the Hangar are copied from the client. YET this data exists in the API. So how about them apples?
Valterra Craven
#304 - 2014-05-06 16:29:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
CCP Prism X wrote:


I repeat: This is not data you have access to except through the API. Hence it should not be in the API. This goes for all data returned from it. The API is allowed to make your life easier, but it's not allowed to expose information you have no access to elsewhere.

If the lack of this information is causing you excessive grief that you need addressed then you're asking for a design change in EVE Online, the spaceship game. I'll freely admit that I, as a framework programmer, am in no situation to judge design suggestions on a professional basis. That's why I'm trying to refrain from passing judgement on any ideas proposed here. But whilst the data is not available for you in the client it cannot be available in the API.

That being sad I can fully sympathize if you feel like WH space lacks the tools to be all it can be. If you are relying on a third party tool to enjoy the game because the client is lacking: Well it's a situation you shouldn't accept quietly. But the API is not a backdoor to effect game design changes, and a programmer (me and FoxFour when he has his API hat on) is not the right person to make game design changes.

So I hope this explains at least that we're not doing this just to be difficult and make you people feel offended. But if that's still your opinion I'm afraid we'll simply have to agree to disagree on this.


But you are missing a key point here. This change is intentionally making these people's lives harder. If you or someone else from CCP were to come out and state that this data will NEVER be available in client and thus will be removed from the API, thats one thing, but you are saying that while it could be possible in the client, it won't be available in the API until it is.

The problem is that as paying customers you are taking something away without a proper fix in place for it. If it existed this long in this form, then there should be no harm in leaving it as is UNTIL a game design choice can be made one way or the other. The real issue here is that you guys want to "fix" stuff (see the previous incartion of or pos hangers not dropping stuff) by removing things players have depended on for several years without suitable alternatives being in place FIRST. Those hanger array changes dropping nothing should have never seen the light of day before the wreck solution was put in place. And I say that as a player that's NEVER shot at a POS before!

TL;DR If you want to fix this, get the correct order in place first.

A. Get a game design dev to comment this will never be available in client and remove it from the api
B. Get a game design dev to comment this could be added to the client and leave it in the api for now
C. Get a game design dev to comment this will be added to the client and leave it in the api for now
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#305 - 2014-05-06 16:30:01 UTC
This is terrible.


Remember how like, ONE friggin month ago you guys were talking about removing incoming sigs to make it impossible to see a gank coming? Remember how wormhole space was supposed to be dangerous and had become too safe?

Suddenly today we find out that the API "favours one side too much" and you're making it harder to find bears.


Could you just for the player's sake at least TRY to make it look like you guys have some kind of plan for wormhole space instead of just randomly tossing out major mechanics changes at a whim?
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#306 - 2014-05-06 16:30:53 UTC
Can we please continue this disscussion over here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4558401#post4558401

:)

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#307 - 2014-05-06 16:31:54 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
e: ^^^^ my bad -- I started this reply before you posted.

Gnaw LF wrote:
CCP Prism X wrote:


I repeat: This is not data you have access to except through the API. Hence it should not be in the API. This goes for all data returned from it. The API is allowed to make your life easier, but it's not allowed to expose information you have no access to elsewhere.



Hey guy, when did this become the new CCP policy? Are you sure you want to go down this road with us because we will throw a laundry list of things that are not in the client?. How about this one*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal., if you copy a Killmail of a Carrier from the client, none of the items in the Hangar are copied from the client. YET this data exists in the API. So how about them apples?

Yet another false equivalency. The only data being exposed here is for entertainment value and has no strategic use whatsoever.

You can't just vomit up a laundry list of discrepancies and expect it to serve as a counterbalance to the change you dislike. You have to prove that it is relevant.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Thor66777
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#308 - 2014-05-06 16:33:35 UTC
fido goran wrote:
CCP Prism X wrote:
Nitrah wrote:
Stuff


This is not data you have access to except through the API. Hence it should not be in the API. This goes for all data returned from it. The API is allowed to make your life easier, but it's not allowed to expose information you have no access to elsewhere.

I can't for the life of me find in the client where the data is that shows me jump distances in numerical format between systems in light years. Don't forget to remove that data out of the API while you are going.



Whats this then? http://i.imgur.com/SSTuIMQ.png
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#309 - 2014-05-06 16:33:54 UTC
fido goran wrote:
CCP Prism X wrote:
Nitrah wrote:
Stuff


This is not data you have access to except through the API. Hence it should not be in the API. This goes for all data returned from it. The API is allowed to make your life easier, but it's not allowed to expose information you have no access to elsewhere.

I can't for the life of me find in the client where the data is that shows me jump distances in numerical format between systems in light years. Don't forget to remove that data out of the API while you are going.


Good call.

Let's remove all extraneous info from the API since we're on an information witch hunt.
MaxDEL
Quantum Explosion
#310 - 2014-05-06 16:34:15 UTC
Over 5 years of Wormholes CPP did nothing new in them .
There were no interesting innovations that would be used only for WH (new scanning, scan ships - is more for beginners)

You , CCP, for several years now talking about new classes WH, new anomalies , new activities , changes POS structures ( this is the only way to live in WH if you do not know )

Now you want to remove the only entertainment for active residents WH. Do you think what happens after that ? I personally stop disburse about 30 accounts.

You do not see the world that you created and do not even know that there are people doing .
Cue Who
Q-Pids
#311 - 2014-05-06 16:39:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Cue Who
The only thing this change does is make it easier to PvE. EVE has always maintained a balance between risk and reward, with WHs being the best ISK in the game, why are you decreasing risk? As it stands, it's too safe in W-Space already, now it's going to be even safer? As it stands, WHs are dead empty. There's a limited number of people who want to live in wormholes. Removing the ability to tell when a wormhole is active will make them even more empty.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#312 - 2014-05-06 16:39:35 UTC
Please move the disscussion about the WH NPC kills to this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4558401#post4558401

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Jonny Baconbits
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#313 - 2014-05-06 17:02:44 UTC
Hidden Fremen wrote:


If you're gonna farm in wspace, use the tools to ensure your own "safety". How fuct does that sound? Changes to make farming Sleepers safer... What in the ****...

You know what this change is going to do instead? It's going to incentivize evictions again. I promise you.


Happy farmers are rich farmers. Can't say I disagree with Hidden Fremen here. Burning carebear systems to the ground might end up being more common. We'll get our tears one way or another.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#314 - 2014-05-06 17:06:17 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Bloemkoolsaus wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
as a heads up as soon as I can find the time I will be removing WH systems map/kills endpoint.


Our wormhole mapper software relies on this information to determine the current status of the systems we are connected to. I would very much like to keep this information in the API as the information it provides is essential for us.


What do you mean by status?

Finding other pilots in wh space is already a chore even with the NPC kill info. That's content we're talking about. That's the info we need. We have a number of tools built over the years to make occupying wspace feasible (maps, etc).

Please explain the thought process behind wanting to remove this and breaking some player made tools that this community rely upon.



Fixed the quoting. ISD Ezwal.

I'm right behind you
Mike C
Perkone
Caldari State
#315 - 2014-05-06 17:09:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike C
CCP Prism X wrote:
The fact that we screwed up and forgot to sanitize the API calls does not change that design.
I don't think sanitize is quite the right word for that, but I digress:

Yes, actually, your mistake does change that design. Wormhole communities have grown and been significantly affected by this information for six years. Because of this your model, alledgedly not intending to have had this information, is inaccurate. To reconcile them either the model has to change or the game has to change.

The question is: can you account for and investigate the results of all of the changes this will cause? I seriously doubt you can, and I know there are members of the community several orders of magnitude better at it than you. After six years such a fundamental adjustment requires a bit more than "it's not what we wanted."

edit: Wormhole money is balanced to the risk of having this information. It's not necessarily a bad change, but without an accompanying nerf to the profitability such an increase in safety is utterly ridiculous.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#316 - 2014-05-06 17:10:33 UTC
Please move the disscussion about the WH NPC kills to this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4558401#post4558401

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#317 - 2014-05-06 17:15:28 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
So lets answer a few questions:

Bloemkoolsaus wrote:
Our wormhole mapper software relies on this information to determine the current status of the systems we are connected to. I would very much like to keep this information in the API as the information it provides is essential for us.


Your software relying on it is basically why we are doing this. This is information that you guys using software outside the game get a huge advantage over those who do not. CCP by design specifically did not include a map of WH space, and we specifically did not include this information in the client.

Earlier we removed jumps for WH systems from the API. Removing this was something that should have been done then.


Then by all means place 'your money where your mouth is' and break all api based market and industrial and PI tools under the same logic since they confer great advantage for those with the ability to use them over those without said ability.

It is exactly the same thing.

I'm right behind you
War Fairy
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#318 - 2014-05-06 17:16:31 UTC
fido goran wrote:
CCP Prism X wrote:
Nitrah wrote:
Stuff


This is not data you have access to except through the API. Hence it should not be in the API. This goes for all data returned from it. The API is allowed to make your life easier, but it's not allowed to expose information you have no access to elsewhere.

I can't for the life of me find in the client where the data is that shows me jump distances in numerical format between systems in light years. Don't forget to remove that data out of the API while you are going.


Apples and oranges.

Jump distances are publicly available in the SDE.
mkint
#319 - 2014-05-06 17:16:32 UTC
Querns wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
CCP Prism X wrote:
Well it's a situation you shouldn't accept quietly.


No, it's clearly something that people should talk about ad-nauseum for the next six to seven years until CCP deigns to actually do something about it.

very few people even knew it existed.

That's so very very not true.

The topic comes up all the time in the Rookie Help channel where a rookie stumbles into w-space, or has found a WH and is thinking about going in. Several people give the advice "look up the WH in dotlan maps to get an idea of activity" as well as the obvious d-scan and class lookup and stuff.

I'm not arguing one way or the other, but if you're going to say something patently false, try harder not to get caught.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Bronya Boga
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#320 - 2014-05-06 17:19:23 UTC
I understand why you are doing this and I think it brings back a bit of the mystery to wspace. I do have one big issue with this though. You are eliminating PVP assets (intel source) but you are keeping the PVE asset (discovery scanner) you are basically taking intel people have to invest in (isk, time, ect.) But not addressing the larger issue of free intel. I would argue that if you are cutting one finger might as well take the whole hand (intel that is accessed without work).

To CCP Foxfour. Im not too certain if you can work on adjusting the discovery scanner but if we look at raw power then it has a larger impact on how fights happen in wspace.
If you would fix the discovery scanner I would welcome this change as it will reinforce the unknown feeling everyone has been missing for a long time. My opinion might be going agaisnt the masses but I hope they come to their senses.

TL;DR you have to work for intel, get rid of discovery scanner in wspace first /thread