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EVE API and Public CREST discussion

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Author
Arkon Olacar
black.listed
#281 - 2014-05-06 15:51:44 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
But the API is not a backdoor to effect game design changes, and a programmer (me and FoxFour when he has his API hat on) is not the right person to make game design changes.

Here's the thing: by giving us access to this information through the API for years and then suddenly pulling the plug, you ARE making game design changes.

I can accept that if you were designing the API from scratch, including kill information in wh systems does not make a huge amount of sense. But YOU did, you included it, and you let the playerbase get used to having access to that information.

And now you are trying tp pull the plug, changing the way we play the game, without thinking about the consequences of that change. You are changing the game design, intentionally or otherwise, so you do not get to use that as an excuse.
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#282 - 2014-05-06 15:52:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Durzel
You can monitor neighbours directly, but it means throwing a lot of warm bodies into wormholes on the off chance that someone might log in, much less do something that puts them at risk. Even though the NPC kill data is delayed it is useful for working out historically when people are active. It is (or was - soon) a useful shorthand.

I'm also quite puzzled as to how this existed in the API for so long if it was a simple mistake. Jumps was removed in 2011, and kill data has been in there since wormholes were launched, it comes across as a bit patronising to suggest that this data should never have been available in the first place and that the countless tools that have been in development for years are the reason it's being removed.
Kalel Nimrott
Caldari Provisions
#283 - 2014-05-06 15:56:00 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Bloemkoolsaus wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
as a heads up as soon as I can find the time I will be removing WH systems map/kills endpoint.


Our wormhole mapper software relies on this information to determine the current status of the systems we are connected to. I would very much like to keep this information in the API as the information it provides is essential for us.


What do you mean by status?


It means that we get our intel from the small ammount of info available. Unlike null, our sources are very limited and we got very good at making the most of it. And you pretend to remove that.

Bob Artis, you will be missed.

O7

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#284 - 2014-05-06 15:56:53 UTC
Two step wrote:
Sure, but what if you are locked out of the system, how can I see assets then?

e-honoure has nothing at all to do with it. CCP has created a system that is far, far, far too easy to farm with very little risk, and now they are talking about removing some of that risk. If they were to simultaneously also make sleeper farming harder to do, I would be far more accepting of this change, but without that, all this will do is encourage even more mostly nullsec alt farming corps to live in w-space. This is bead for all of us that actually live there, as we don't get fights from the farmers, we get ganks at best, and their farming injects trillions of ISK into the economy as well as decreasing the value of Sleeper salvage.

You can't be locked out of a wormhole. You just have to roll holes until you get access back. Sure, that's a pain in the ass, but if we made "is a pain in the ass" relevant to these discussions, eve itself would be in a pretty bad place. :V

And, yes, e-honor has everything to do with it. Wormholers have created this weird film of entitlement that somehow makes it a sin to utilize wormhole space for making money; that only PvPers should live in wormhole space. This is your fabrication alone, based on a completely artificial set of social norms to which you subscribe. While you are free to attempt to enforce your social norms upon others however you see fit, seeing as wormhole space is 0.0 security and shooting others has no automatic retribution á la CONCORD or gate guns, the game mechanics are also not beholden to enforce your social norms for you.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Chiimera
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#285 - 2014-05-06 15:57:11 UTC
Dev fixes api design flaw: everyone flips their ****

You weren't supposed to have access to this data initially, there are other ways to gather the Intel you want.

Deal Wiz It
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#286 - 2014-05-06 15:58:05 UTC
Querns wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
CCP Prism X wrote:
Well it's a situation you shouldn't accept quietly.


No, it's clearly something that people should talk about ad-nauseum for the next six to seven years until CCP deigns to actually do something about it.

This is a false equivalency. Very few people (if any) were arguing for the removal of this API data. Primarily, this was because very few people even knew it existed. The length of time during which you were able to abuse this data to safeguard your wormholes by collapsing holes that lead to "problem" links is in no way indicative of future performance, nor is it some sort of capital that you have collected to spend in opposition to change.

On the other hand, the fact that few people were arguing for the removal of the API data is not somehow a fulcrum that one can use to deny the change, either. It was just a mistake; one that is being ameliorated now. Count yourself lucky that you were able to short-circuit the design intentions of the game for as long as you have.


I haven't abused anything. I don't live in wormholes. That's a nice try, though.

None of that, however, changes the fact that 'not being quiet' is virtually a useless expenditure of time. Even if CCP suddenly agrees that this information should be made available in the client, it is highly unlikely that it will happen anytime soon.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#287 - 2014-05-06 16:01:29 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Querns wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
CCP Prism X wrote:
Well it's a situation you shouldn't accept quietly.


No, it's clearly something that people should talk about ad-nauseum for the next six to seven years until CCP deigns to actually do something about it.

This is a false equivalency. Very few people (if any) were arguing for the removal of this API data. Primarily, this was because very few people even knew it existed. The length of time during which you were able to abuse this data to safeguard your wormholes by collapsing holes that lead to "problem" links is in no way indicative of future performance, nor is it some sort of capital that you have collected to spend in opposition to change.

On the other hand, the fact that few people were arguing for the removal of the API data is not somehow a fulcrum that one can use to deny the change, either. It was just a mistake; one that is being ameliorated now. Count yourself lucky that you were able to short-circuit the design intentions of the game for as long as you have.


I haven't abused anything. I don't live in wormholes. That's a nice try, though.

None of that, however, changes the fact that 'not being quiet' is virtually a useless expenditure of time. Even if CCP suddenly agrees that this information should be made available in the client, it is highly unlikely that it will happen anytime soon.

Yeah, sorry, that was the plural "you." I wasn't specifically accusing the poster in the quote (you) of it. I don't really know who in this thread lives in wormholes and who doesn't.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fido goran
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#288 - 2014-05-06 16:06:41 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
Nitrah wrote:
Stuff


This is not data you have access to except through the API. Hence it should not be in the API. This goes for all data returned from it. The API is allowed to make your life easier, but it's not allowed to expose information you have no access to elsewhere.

I can't for the life of me find in the client where the data is that shows me jump distances in numerical format between systems in light years. Don't forget to remove that data out of the API while you are going.
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#289 - 2014-05-06 16:06:55 UTC
Two step wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Two step wrote:
First of all, buried deep in an API thread is not the right place to announce changes like this. I think you now realize this though.

Secondly, the NPC kill information is useful really only for finding people who are just farming in w-space. It is already quite hard to catch and kill these folks. They rarely store anything of value in a POS, so invading and shooting their POS doesn't matter, one of the few ways to kill them is if they have become predictable, and the only real way to find that is with NPC kill data.

The fact that this information is not visible in the client isn't really a good reason either. There is plenty of information that is only visible via the API right now, for example, the contents of POS hangars when you are not at a POS, or even POS fuel levels when you are not present. Are you also proposing to remove the Assets and POS endpoints?

There are many publicly available sites where everyone can see this information, from Dotlan to static mapper, so people that choose to seek out the information can have it. EVE is a game that is all about punishing the lazy and uninformed player, why are you proposing to change this here?


So you would support this change if it required you to be in the system.....


I know you are trying to troll me, but yes, I would actually not have a problem if this info was available in system. While some people use the kill data to set up login traps, the vast majority of w-space players actually use it to guess if people in their current chain are about to log in and become active.

Of course, if it was exposed in the client in some way, folks like me would be asking for it to be put in the API so we don't have to copy and paste yet another thing when we are making our maps.

Querns wrote:
Two step wrote:

The fact that this information is not visible in the client isn't really a good reason either. There is plenty of information that is only visible via the API right now, for example, the contents of POS hangars when you are not at a POS, or even POS fuel levels when you are not present. Are you also proposing to remove the Assets and POS endpoints?

This is not what is meant by "only visible via the API." You can log in and check your CHA and your fuel bays in the client. There is no way, in the client, to check NPC kills, jumps, or PVP kills in wormhole space. It's not about convenience, it's about enforcing a deliberate design decision.

If you wanted to argue that this design decision is poor, and this information should also be available in the eve client, then you'd have a better platform.

On a related topic, there's been an awful lot of talk about some sort of entitlement whereupon people using wormhole space solely for PvE must somehow be detectable and punished. This is not a design issue; it is an artificial construct that the players in wormhole space have fabricated. CCP is under no obligation to enforce your e-honor.


Sure, but what if you are locked out of the system, how can I see assets then?

e-honoure has nothing at all to do with it. CCP has created a system that is far, far, far too easy to farm with very little risk, and now they are talking about removing some of that risk. If they were to simultaneously also make sleeper farming harder to do, I would be far more accepting of this change, but without that, all this will do is encourage even more mostly nullsec alt farming corps to live in w-space. This is bead for all of us that actually live there, as we don't get fights from the farmers, we get ganks at best, and their farming injects trillions of ISK into the economy as well as decreasing the value of Sleeper salvage.


Not trolling you at all. Pointing out the logical conclusion to your ask. All of which still result in them nuking it from the API. The only real question is timing.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Sushi Nardieu
The Generic Pirate Corporation
#290 - 2014-05-06 16:07:21 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Hey guys,

as a heads up as soon as I can find the time I will be removing WH systems map/kills endpoint. This is data that exists in the API but not the client and is incredibly powerful. As with everything I am open to discussing this, but I will admit that you will have a damn hard time convincing me of not doing it.


lame.

The Guns of Knowledge 

Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#291 - 2014-05-06 16:08:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Durzel
Kalel Nimrott wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Bloemkoolsaus wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
as a heads up as soon as I can find the time I will be removing WH systems map/kills endpoint.


Our wormhole mapper software relies on this information to determine the current status of the systems we are connected to. I would very much like to keep this information in the API as the information it provides is essential for us.


What do you mean by status?


It means that we get our intel from the small ammount of info available. Unlike null, our sources are very limited and we got very good at making the most of it. And you pretend to remove that.

This.

Null and other areas of Eve have an abundance of intel. You only need to jump into any system and see everyone who is there and who they are allied with, etc. Hell you don't even need to jump in to find out everything you practically need to know just from the map - NPC kills, ship kills, pilots in space, etc.

If you remove more and more sources of intel pretty soon you're left with blind people who are just scrabbling around in the dark on the off chance that they might bump into someone to shoot.

Ok maybe that's hyperbole but sometimes rolling holes to find targets knowing full well that the deck is already stacked against you the moment the K162 appears can get pretty boring fast. Having an established chain suddenly show signs of life can be a satisfying reward for previous work, and a nice change of pace from whatever else was going on at that point.

At the very least I'd like to see a change like this coincide with something, some scrap from the table that actually benefits people who are looking to fight in wormholes - e.g. delayed K162s. The new scanner was already a kick in the teeth, removing this is another kick further down!

(ok I can't stop with the hyperbole)
Tonis Elias
Presidential Office of Transparency
Goonswarm Federation
#292 - 2014-05-06 16:09:35 UTC
We've been daytripping into wormholes to run sites and a change like this would mean we will stop. PvP kills aren't a good indicator of activity in a hole. We're obviously not wormholers proper but we've only been doing this about 2 weeks and we've already welped 2 domi fleets to enterprising wormholers who found us and caused 1 giant fight on a wormhole entrance. If you remove our ability to judge a safe hole it becomes a losing proposition isk-wise for us to enter the hole (remember we can always stay in null and rat so the benefit has to exceed that). Something to consider when you make a change like this, you'll not only be affecting wormholers but you'll affect people who use them sometimes, and in this case you'll be taking away the content our bumbling attempts to rat in their space provides them.
iLLeLogicaL
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#293 - 2014-05-06 16:10:35 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Querns wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sure, but what if you are locked out of the system, how can I see assets then?

e-honoure has nothing at all to do with it. CCP has created a system that is far, far, far too easy to farm with very little risk, and now they are talking about removing some of that risk. If they were to simultaneously also make sleeper farming harder to do, I would be far more accepting of this change, but without that, all this will do is encourage even more mostly nullsec alt farming corps to live in w-space. This is bead for all of us that actually live there, as we don't get fights from the farmers, we get ganks at best, and their farming injects trillions of ISK into the economy as well as decreasing the value of Sleeper salvage.

You can't be locked out of a wormhole. You just have to roll holes until you get access back. Sure, that's a pain in the ass, but if we made "is a pain in the ass" relevant to these discussions, eve itself would be in a pretty bad place. :V

And, yes, e-honor has everything to do with it. Wormholers have created this weird film of entitlement that somehow makes it a sin to utilize wormhole space for making money; that only PvPers should live in wormhole space. This is your fabrication alone, based on a completely artificial set of social norms to which you subscribe. While you are free to attempt to enforce your social norms upon others however you see fit, seeing as wormhole space is 0.0 security and shooting others has no automatic retribution á la CONCORD or gate guns, the game mechanics are also not beholden to enforce your social norms for you.


It's not a sin to make money in wormholes, for many of us being to make good money and have fun pvping is the sole reason that we moved in wormholes.

The fact is that wormhole space is slowly turning into a risk-free carebear zone. It's not about the api removal, which is sad but not something we won't learn to deal with in time. It's just that the incentives to make content in wh space are harder and harder to reach.

The fact that since the what you me call it scanner update you don't even need a prober anymore means we not have a lot more farmers who survive because you have to be a bloody Idiot to not watch for sigs.

Allready in wh space you need to have many alts, having to drop a scout in every system if you want to see when farmers farms is just so much effort and might make just wonder

Still worth it? Wormhole space is uncharted territory, but it's getting to easy to make risk-free isk in wh space,*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#294 - 2014-05-06 16:17:45 UTC
iLLeLogicaL wrote:
Allready in wh space you need to have many alts, having to drop a scout in every system if you want to see when farmers farms is just so much effort and might make just wonder


iLLeLogicaL wrote:
Wormhole space is uncharted territory


Looks like you answered your own question

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#295 - 2014-05-06 16:19:04 UTC
Querns wrote:

CCP can't "sneak in" changes; they have a DEV POSTS tracker at the top of the page that alerts every single person to their posts.

Also, you can still monitor your neighbors for activity without the API. It will just be more difficult after the change. One might go so far as to accuse detractors of this change of risk-aversion; now software can't inform you if there are unruly neighbors nearby. You will have to go and get that information yourself. Are you saying that the risk of w-space is to be lessened? Isn't that your whole schtick; that wormhole space is riskier and more difficult than k-space? Don't you want that assertion to be strengthened wherever possible?


You obviously don't know how this works. You can't monitor neighboring systems in real time because this API endpoint already has a delay on TOP of the caching of data. So at best you will be 30 minutes late, at worse you will be an hour late. Which is all the time needed for many cap escalations. I am not even going to mention that before doing Sleeper sites anyone who is worth anything will collapse all incoming and outgoing connections, an action that cannot be seen in API or anywhere else. So yeah, this data is not used for Real Time fights.

Where this endpoint can be used is to setup logoff traps, without this data it would take forever to come across a group doing sites in w-space, then it will take days to stalk them to figure out their site running patterns and hours. Its too much work for too little reward while the bears will keep on killing sleepers in safety.
Valterra Craven
#296 - 2014-05-06 16:19:15 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:


I believe you misunderstood me, sir. The post I quoted was silly in my opinion. It is silly to propose that mistakes in the API should kick of a design change in EVE proper rather than be fixed in the API (that does not mean that said end result is silly, just the logic). It's silly to offer a solution only to state offhand that you will not be listened to. It's just a silly way to initiate a dialouge as you're basicly saying you do not want one. It's silly to be rude-ish (open to opinion and interpretation) to people you want listneing to you by claiming they're just trying to make your life difficult or do not know what they're talking about. When people behave silly around me in real life I tell them I find their behaviour silly. They can then chose to ask me what I mean or simply ignore the statement. At least they'll know why I'm no longer engaging them even though they do not agree with my assertion.

I fully understand that this changes things for some people so I'm absolutely not saying that any claims that this changes things are silly. Just that this specific post struck me as silly. No need for you to get offended on Valterra's behalf (unless you want to, then it's your right and I have no intention of infringing on that right).


If I may, I'd like to offer a rebuttal on my behalf?

CCP Prism X wrote:

It is silly to propose that mistakes in the API should kick of a design change in EVE.


Why exactly is that? CCP has constantly stated that you are surprised with how players have used things that you've intended for entirely different purposes. My point is that while the original implementation was a mistake, that players have grown used to the feature and have come to expect it. Since other players in Eve have access to this type of information, the logical conclusion would be to offer it to WH people as well instead of removing it.

CCP Prism X wrote:

It's silly to offer a solution only to state offhand that you will not be listened to.


Why? Given my post history, I've posted numerous ideas on plenty of threads that are ignored. I'm not saying they are all "grade A" ideas, but I've seen constantly in the past several years where devs have created threads and despite all the feedback about something have listened to none of it and with very little explanation as to why. I was merely stating a logical conclusion based on prior CCP behavior.

CCP Prism X wrote:

It's silly to be rude-ish (open to opinion and interpretation) to people you want listneing to you by claiming they're just trying to make your life difficult or do not know what they're talking about.


Well I stated explicitly in my post that I'm not a WH dweller nor am I affected by this change, so I'm not sure what your point is here.

CCP Prism X wrote:

They can then chose to ask me what I mean or simply ignore the statement.


Why be obtuse in the first place? While I wasn't personally offended by your post, your response was almost to a nose exactly what was predicted. You have to understand that as a dev you come from a position of power, so when you make intentional obtuse statements it can tend to lend to hurt feelings. The better thing to have done would be to simply state this:

"It is silly to propose that mistakes in the API should kick of a design change in EVE"

and then there would be actual real dialogue instead of me having to respond in this manner.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#297 - 2014-05-06 16:20:39 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Hey guys,

as a heads up as soon as I can find the time I will be removing WH systems map/kills endpoint. This is data that exists in the API but not the client and is incredibly powerful. As with everything I am open to discussing this, but I will admit that you will have a damn hard time convincing me of not doing it.

Long overdue. Do it as soon as possible.
Nex Killer
Perkone
Caldari State
#298 - 2014-05-06 16:24:47 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Hey guys,

as a heads up as soon as I can find the time I will be removing WH systems map/kills endpoint. This is data that exists in the API but not the client and is incredibly powerful. As with everything I am open to discussing this, but I will admit that you will have a damn hard time convincing me of not doing it.


Doo it! Make WH space more unknown!
Longinius Spear
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
#299 - 2014-05-06 16:25:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Longinius Spear
Well this won't effect me and how I find my targets I'm much too small time.


But I feel a bigger picture must be looked at. As it stands the only real way to deal with capital escalation farm gangs (which are a problem imo) is to either roll into them or log off trap. Blood Union has essentially perfected the process and has become the wormhole farmers 'boogy man'. BU have had a significant impact on wormhole farmers, that impact is being felt by someone.

The removal of this intel tool makes those famers safer, there is no denying it.

"Tinfoil hat time"

Why now? Why is CCP doing this now, what is also occurring in the game that would drive the need for CCP to extend its arms to protect farmers.

PLEX. CCP is a business plain and simple. Their actions have been totally consistent with making money.

The simple truth is, there are more bears in this game than there are PVPers. CCP is simply providing for the majority.

If this was anything about "as intended" it would have been fixed years ago. No one in a effective business goes around 'fixing' things that have already been accepted years down the road... Just because someone dusted off a 2 year old BRD and said "OOO yea its really not suppose to be like this!" And if that's the case... We have bigger issues on our hands.

The plan truth is, this change looks very suspicious because of its late timing and total irrelevance to how the community operates.

What can we do about it? Zip. The wormhole pvp community is simply too small.

CCP owns all code, owns this account and owns this post. We are simply subscribers... little long term wallets that may or may not continue to throw money at them.

EVE will always be my love, but unnecessary changes to the one environment that actually works proves the DEVs are simply out of touch with what made me fall in love with this game, its community.

Sad.

Read more of my ramblings on my blog www.invadingyourhole.blogspot.com

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#300 - 2014-05-06 16:25:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Gnaw LF wrote:
Querns wrote:

CCP can't "sneak in" changes; they have a DEV POSTS tracker at the top of the page that alerts every single person to their posts.

Also, you can still monitor your neighbors for activity without the API. It will just be more difficult after the change. One might go so far as to accuse detractors of this change of risk-aversion; now software can't inform you if there are unruly neighbors nearby. You will have to go and get that information yourself. Are you saying that the risk of w-space is to be lessened? Isn't that your whole schtick; that wormhole space is riskier and more difficult than k-space? Don't you want that assertion to be strengthened wherever possible?


You obviously don't know how this works. You can't monitor neighboring systems in real time because this API endpoint already has a delay on TOP of the caching of data. So at best you will be 30 minutes late, at worse you will be an hour late. Which is all the time needed for many cap escalations. I am not even going to mention that before doing Sleeper sites anyone who is worth anything will collapse all incoming and outgoing connections, an action that cannot be seen in API or anywhere else. So yeah, this data is not used for Real Time fights.

Where this endpoint can be used is to setup logoff traps, without this data it would take forever to come across a group doing sites in w-space, then it will take days to stalk them to figure out their site running patterns and hours. Its too much work for too little reward while the bears will keep on killing sleepers in safety.

Nowhere in my post did I imply that the API data was real time or that the systems consuming the API data relied on the data being real time. We have the same data in 0.0, remember; we use it similarly to build heuristics and puzzle out a best known time zone for the targets of our guns.

I would argue the converse regarding risk: removing these endpoints removes the ability for entrenched wormhole dwellers to quickly determine which connections to their wormholes are risky so that they can be extinguished proactively. This change promotes risk by forcing wormhole dwellers to make these determinations manually, through scouting and patience.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.