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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

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tiewan
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#221 - 2014-04-28 19:51:46 UTC
Even though I have spent time researching blueprints to higher levels than probably needed.
I don't feel too badly about it.

I am actually really happy ccp is taken a 10 level approach and wish they had done it long ago.

As for the T2 BPO topic..

I think people like to make it a bigger issue than it is.

Over time I am sure very slowly they will be reduced in numbers without ccp needing to do anything.
There will always be an unwise person from time to time who decides to move one to another station only to get blown up and have it destroyed.

And there is always people who log off one day only to never return. Either because they want to or maybe they die.. it happens.
Hirogenale
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#222 - 2014-04-28 19:52:59 UTC
I'm not really a fan of a static level system. In the current System you are able to create BPC's, produce from them while, send the BPO back into research for a few ME-levels and repeat (at a few Items at least, if the Copy/Manufacturing time relation gets fixed anyways it would get more common, resulting in more production from BPC's)
With only 10 levels of research and the high duration of the last 2 levels that basically becomes useless.

I'd suggest getting away from ME as well as a Level-system, simply going to a System based on the % improvement.
That means instead of saying i want to research 10 ME levels that give me an additional benefit I'd have to calculate, or saying i want to skill 1 static level i have no influence on an option, that allows to research to a given % improvement.
For example from 8% to 8.34%, with increasing timerequirements the higher you get.
Optional to that there could also be an option to do it time-based, you could say i want to research for 23 days and 12 hours becouse then I need new copys or whatever, how far does that get me? (the interface should of course show that while typing or even show precalculated values for likely steps)

That would be a clear system, you immediately see the wastage without any other needed numbers, it allows a huge flexibility and, with good copy/manufacturing time relation could make production from BPC's more common.
It would also allow, that the values of the current System could be used without making high researched BPO's pointless.

I think it would be good if it would still be impossile to reach 10%, just get very close to it, basically use the same curve thats used currently, just flattened out a bit.
BPO's could simply be capped at the %-level, where all materials are at the minimal possible Amount.

In my opinion a System based on that concept would be both easy to use and understand as well as still flexible for the hardcore-industrialists
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#223 - 2014-04-28 19:54:43 UTC
Sooooo, what's the new market deliveries folder in station for hi-tech items?
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#224 - 2014-04-28 20:02:01 UTC
Abla Tive wrote:
I am not fully familiar with POS's, but I seem to recall that you could copy faster on a POS than on a station.

This speed up was non trivial as I recall.

For a T2 BPO owner, would it now make sense to run a POS to make copies
(albeit at the cost of daily log ins to make sure that you have not been dec'd)

Would this impact the market?

Many people that produce from T2 BPOs do so at a POS already, so they are already getting that productivity bonus.

It looks to me like these changes will reduce T2 BPO output overall because more people will choose the simplicity and safety of NPC station production over the risk, cost and complexity of POS production.
Madfranco
Eightfold Arrow
#225 - 2014-04-28 20:02:35 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Madfranco wrote:
Edit: Greyscale answered to the edited-out part while i posted it

Could you please allow batching (or some kind of stacking at BPC level) of invented BPC, or at least increse the minimummaximum number of some classes of BPC (rigs for example, small ones especially)?

Having to log multiple times in the day to restart production of some T2 items even when you use the max run decriptor is imho a flawed mechanic.....

And this may even relate to some research jobs, i would really like the batching system used in the actual copy sistem to be estended to production and invention, at least for the shorter run items, as long as i frontload the components....


Blueprint stats are easy to adjust. You want longer max runs on T1 rigs?


I'm bad at writing...

What i was asking for is if it would be possible to batch jobs from multiple BPCs, because actually some BPOs have too few max runs on their BPCs (see Capital parts BPOs), some invented T2 BPCs (E.G.: 8 runs T2 small rig job completion time is 20h at a POS array currently) have similar "tendencies" of forcing you to log multiple times a day to "click" if you want to manifacture from them.

Even if the new UI sistem fixed a part of the clickspam, you still have to "fight" against the ui if you have to log multiple times a day to queue jobs, given the fact that i just have to log in to click, the materials were already there.

Maybe this is more a UI related problem but you would kill all bird with one stone if you could use multiple BPCs (T1 and T2) to do a job as long as those BPCs had the same ME/TE stats, and you frontload all the materials as usual (more capital is tied up for a longer time, there's the tradeoff for a longer batch).

I guess some of you have short runs BPCs leftover they dont have time to slot in their production cycles due to having to relog multiple times a day...

This could be expanded even to invention when invention jobs are just that short: "why do i have to relog each 3 hours to queue jobs? Can't you just do it 8 times in a row as long as i frontload all materials Evil?"

Meh, even improved the UI will still be a mess to fight against...
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#226 - 2014-04-28 20:03:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Kadl
Abla Tive wrote:
I am not fully familiar with POS's, but I seem to recall that you could copy faster on a POS than on a station.

This speed up was non trivial as I recall.

For a T2 BPO owner, would it now make sense to run a POS to make copies
(albeit at the cost of daily log ins to make sure that you have not been dec'd)

Would this impact the market?


Yes it can impact the market.

Advanced Mobile Laboratory x0.65 of copy speed

Perhaps some people will put their T2 BPOs in POSes. That is risk, and may result in it being destroyed. T2 BPOs are worth a bit of a hunt.

Edit: Bad Bobby Response
Bad Bobby wrote:
Abla Tive wrote:
I am not fully familiar with POS's, but I seem to recall that you could copy faster on a POS than on a station.

This speed up was non trivial as I recall.

For a T2 BPO owner, would it now make sense to run a POS to make copies
(albeit at the cost of daily log ins to make sure that you have not been dec'd)

Would this impact the market?

Many people that produce from T2 BPOs do so at a POS already, so they are already getting that productivity bonus.

It looks to me like these changes will reduce T2 BPO output overall because more people will choose the simplicity and safety of NPC station production over the risk, cost and complexity of POS production.


Most Equipment production arrays seem to be x0.75 not x0.65. The Rapid Assembly Array does allow x0.65 with an increased material cost. So there is a benefit from using the Advanced Mobile Laboratory unless the increased minerals didn't matter in the first place. Lots of details to consider for the T2 BPO holder.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#227 - 2014-04-28 20:03:20 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Abla Tive wrote:
I am not fully familiar with POS's, but I seem to recall that you could copy faster on a POS than on a station.

This speed up was non trivial as I recall.

For a T2 BPO owner, would it now make sense to run a POS to make copies
(albeit at the cost of daily log ins to make sure that you have not been dec'd)

Would this impact the market?

Many people that produce from T2 BPOs do so at a POS already, so they are already getting that productivity bonus.

It looks to me like these changes will reduce T2 BPO output overall because more people will choose the simplicity and safety of NPC station production over the risk, cost and complexity of POS production.


They would, if BPC copy time wasn't receiving a huge buff for T2 BPOs.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#228 - 2014-04-28 20:04:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I would love for someone to go through and give the intersection of high sec systems that offer the complete package of ME, TE, copying, and invention services.
Here you go. There are about 200 systems that match those criteria, or, more relevantly, 289 stations.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#229 - 2014-04-28 20:06:31 UTC
Kadl wrote:
Abla Tive wrote:
I am not fully familiar with POS's, but I seem to recall that you could copy faster on a POS than on a station.

This speed up was non trivial as I recall.

For a T2 BPO owner, would it now make sense to run a POS to make copies
(albeit at the cost of daily log ins to make sure that you have not been dec'd)

Would this impact the market?


Yes it can impact the market.

Advanced Mobile Laboratory x0.65 of copy speed

Perhaps some people will put their T2 BPOs in POSes. That is risk, and may result in it being destroyed. T2 BPOs are worth a bit of a hunt.



If we could get cargo scanners for pos modules and assembly arrays + labs dropped loot then it would be an issue. As it stands your far more likely to spend hundreds of man hours bashing High Sec pos's for t1 bpcs as you are anything juicy. Frankly even for a couple of battleship BPO's it isn't worth it.

If we get some way of kicking out serious DPS in highsec, the story changes.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
Kithran
#230 - 2014-04-28 20:09:57 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
Abla Tive wrote:
I am not fully familiar with POS's, but I seem to recall that you could copy faster on a POS than on a station.

This speed up was non trivial as I recall.

For a T2 BPO owner, would it now make sense to run a POS to make copies
(albeit at the cost of daily log ins to make sure that you have not been dec'd)

Would this impact the market?

Many people that produce from T2 BPOs do so at a POS already, so they are already getting that productivity bonus.

It looks to me like these changes will reduce T2 BPO output overall because more people will choose the simplicity and safety of NPC station production over the risk, cost and complexity of POS production.


They would, if BPC copy time wasn't receiving a huge buff for T2 BPOs.


Copy time of t2 bpc's has been buffed but I suspect time per unit for producing using t2 bpc at a pos while copying at a station should be roughly the same as producing remotely from a station now.

You would be able to produce more either directly from the bpo at a pos or more still by copying the bpo at a pos and then producing from the resulting bpcs at a cost but at far higher risk than before
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#231 - 2014-04-28 20:11:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kadl
Seith Kali wrote:
If we could get cargo scanners for pos modules and assembly arrays + labs dropped loot then it would be an issue. As it stands your far more likely to spend hundreds of man hours bashing High Sec pos's for t1 bpcs as you are anything juicy. Frankly even for a couple of battleship BPO's it isn't worth it.

If we get some way of kicking out serious DPS in highsec, the story changes.


More intell? I love that idea. I remember a number of years ago when updating intelligence tools was talked about. I am still waiting.

I am not sure if the risk vs reward is well balanced, but there is risk when undocking.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#232 - 2014-04-28 20:12:30 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
Abla Tive wrote:
I am not fully familiar with POS's, but I seem to recall that you could copy faster on a POS than on a station.

This speed up was non trivial as I recall.

For a T2 BPO owner, would it now make sense to run a POS to make copies
(albeit at the cost of daily log ins to make sure that you have not been dec'd)

Would this impact the market?

Many people that produce from T2 BPOs do so at a POS already, so they are already getting that productivity bonus.

It looks to me like these changes will reduce T2 BPO output overall because more people will choose the simplicity and safety of NPC station production over the risk, cost and complexity of POS production.


They would, if BPC copy time wasn't receiving a huge buff for T2 BPOs.

They will have to copy at a NPC station to reduce the risk, which means that the copy speed limits their production.
Morrighaan
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#233 - 2014-04-28 20:13:44 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Jackie Fisher wrote:
So if I have a cap ship BPO I'll be able to make c. 3 times as many copies from it as I do now in a similar time frame? If so a massive crash in higher end BPCs coming.


Yup. I made that comment earlier.
That nice little cottage industry of selling high quality capital ship and component BPC's just got wiped out, unless demand for capital ships triples overnight.

I made a few hundred million every month creating 3 different cap ship BPC's, as well as a bunch of 5 run cap component BPC's.

That just got ruined.


This indeed is very troubling as it not only seriously impacts income for some of us, but also crashes return on investment for high-end BPOs.
Lady Storm
Original Sinners
Pandemic Legion
#234 - 2014-04-28 20:17:05 UTC
Can someone who is better at math explain to me how this is going to effect my capital prints (both components and hulls) The way im reading it, is all the component bpo anything above 10 in the current system is going to be wasted pre-patch as they will just get converted to the new system?

Am I wrong in this thinking?
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#235 - 2014-04-28 20:17:24 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:

They will have to copy at a NPC station to reduce the risk, which means that the copy speed limits their production.


So far we have no indication that copy speed is getting bonuses anywhere, Pos or other wise. As long as copy speed is faster or equal to production speed per run, production speed will be the bottleneck for T2 BPO production. I ask you again, how many do you have?

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#236 - 2014-04-28 20:17:31 UTC
tiewan wrote:
As for the T2 BPO topic..

I think people like to make it a bigger issue than it is.

Over time I am sure very slowly they will be reduced in numbers without ccp needing to do anything.


Yes they will slowly be lost over time. That means that so long as the remaining T2 BPOs don't increase their production they will continue to lose their hold on the market. This is why I would like to see T2s not increase in productive power (without an increase in risk).
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#237 - 2014-04-28 20:19:53 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
man i gotta say this is a VAST improvement: no longer will we have to explain to people that a bpo that's ME200 is basically the same as one that's ME 20, not 10x better. I will have to do the math though on how best to exploit the changeover :v:

Although I agree, in a way, having people research BPO's to ME 100 when only ME 10 was necessary, was a kind of tax on stupidity which I approved of.

I think this quote from the blog sums up the changes very well.

'difficult to understand without wrapping your head around some reasonably non-trivial math, which adds fairly substantially to the mental barrier of entry for industry and generally makes the system more opaque than it really needs to be.'

I quite liked the fact that you had to wrap your head around a bit of maths, (although I wouldn't call it that complex), to get into industry and research.

Also homogenising the research times is another dumbing down of industry, as people no longer need to use their brains to work out whether and particular items bottleneck is copy, invention, or manufacture time.

I will have to see how these changes play out though, but I hope we can maintain or even enhance some of the complexities of industry. Being able to find efficiency in supply chains is what separates the small fry from the big boys. If everything is homogenised, this process becomes too easy.

Despite those concerns, I approve of the changes though. Looking forward to seeing how all this industry related stuff is going to play out this summer.

One thing I'd like to suggest, is improve the industrial ships for use in null or low sec. If you really want to open up the game then it needs to be much more viable to mine in null or low. The Rorqual should be essential for any null sec mining fleet, and provide benefits which make mining in null sec viable. The proc and skiff are already well on the way to filling this role. And hopefully another mining ship will be on the way if everyone's theories about a T2 Venture are correct.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#238 - 2014-04-28 20:20:16 UTC
Alright, there is only one thing about the changes that I really don't like

Bpos should be better than bpcs. Maybe only a few percent. But there should some kind reward for building from a bpo in a pos.

For small stuff the improvement is already there. Building from a bpo essentially means less effort. But for bigger stuff that changes rather quickly.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#239 - 2014-04-28 20:21:41 UTC
Lady Storm wrote:
Can someone who is better at math explain to me how this is going to effect my capital prints (both components and hulls) The way im reading it, is all the component bpo anything above 10 in the current system is going to be wasted pre-patch as they will just get converted to the new system?

Am I wrong in this thinking?


Greyscale's first suggestion seems like your synopsis.

Greyscale is open to alternative suggestions (and I gave him mine). So there may be modifications in some way or another.

After everything is settled we will have Material Levels going from -4 to 10 on all of the BPOs we are using. Material Levels will also mean something different.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#240 - 2014-04-28 20:22:09 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Alright, there is only one thing about the changes that I really don't like

Bpos should be better than bpcs. Maybe only a few percent. But there should some kind reward for building from a bpo in a pos.

For small stuff the improvement is already there. Building from a bpo essentially means less effort. But for bigger stuff that changes rather quickly.

You can react more rapidly to changing market conditions and go direct to manufacture rather than having to maintain a constant backlog of BPCs.