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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

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Amateratsu
The Pegasus Project
#781 - 2014-04-16 10:37:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Amateratsu
I remember talk years ago of allowing Tech II blueprint copies to be ME and PE researched to improve their stats. any chance of this finally happening with this industry overhaul?

this would allow invented bpc's to compete with bpo owners, especially concidering how RARE - Expensive - And difficult Tech II bpos are to aquire.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#782 - 2014-04-16 10:40:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Tippia wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Not true. You have already told us that putting it offline is a valid strategy when the POS is not required. It is a valid strategy because it is SAFE to do so in highsec.
…well, apart from the whole “becomes a target for immediate destruction” bit, sure.

Our definitions of 'immediate destruction' are clearly different. Mine does not include 'leaving a POS offline for several months in perfect safety'. Like one of mine has been in The Forge.

The only reason that highsec is littered with literally thousands of offline POS is that it is very safe. Honestly, I am surprised at your defence of such low risk mechanics.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#783 - 2014-04-16 10:42:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Bad Bobby wrote:
Aeonidis wrote:
all T2 Invention should be worthwhile to the new inventor and even more worthwhile to the high skilled inventor.

So you want it to be a press button recieve bacon situation?

That no matter how over-produced a specific T2 item is, it should always be profitable to produce for the new player and even more profitable to produce for the experienced player?

How is that ever going to work in a free market sandbox?

Doesn't that go totally against everything EVE is about?

What you need is for CCP to keep up with the continuous rebalancing effort, so that more and more T2 products become usefull and all T2 prices are set by the inventors.


Inventors cannot set the prices on all the items. It is impossible for them to undercut BPOs in most cases. Roll

Moreover, after this patch and the reduce copy time it is even easier for the BPO holders to satisfy more demand because copying takes less time. Yay free market ... oh wait.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#784 - 2014-04-16 10:43:35 UTC
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Heh... the production capacity is not an issue. It haven't been in the past either. But I can see where your assumption comes from. The base of your logic is that a player has a T2 BPO and that the volume is not enough to fill or control the market. But, I'm talking about a single player here with 20+ accounts and dozens of T2 BPOs of the same type. Put several players like that in an entity (like a corporation or alliance) and you'll get market control (yes, those are actual persons and not some hypothetical situation... and no, I'm not naming them). I was there while it was happening and I can assure you that they HAD control over the market in the past and they will have it again if the opportunity like what is going to happen in the summer expansion arrives.

And yeah... good luck obtaining enough T2 BPOs by buying them to even think of competing on the market. And even if you had enough ISK to do that, do you really think that you'd be simply able to go to the Buy Orders section of the forum and just ask for it and be flooded with offers? Big smile Market control is not something an individual is willing to sell - for any amount of ISK. Especially if it's centered around a game mechanics that have been removed for years.

Additionally, your argument is still missing the fact that the majority of industrial players play by one rules for years and the handful of players are milking the game mechanics that was discontinued a long time ago).

These game mechanics where not removed or discontinued. The T2 BPOs are still here and fully functional. Like many areas of EVE we are all given many alternative ways to achieve the same end result and we can each choose which way suits us. Just because this isn't the way you choose to do it does not make the alternatives wrong, evil or unbalanced.

Yes there has been a long history of T2 BPOs dominating various markets at various times and for various reasons. That problem has become less and less with each passing rebalance, as the breadth of demand for T2 products increases. The best solution for whatever remains of that problem is to continue with the rebalancing.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#785 - 2014-04-16 10:44:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Zappity wrote:
Our definitions of 'immediate destruction' are clearly different. Mine does not include 'leaving a POS offline for several months in perfect safety'. Like one of mine has been in The Forge.
Your POS is not in a valuable position. It doesn't take up any space that someone else wants.

Quote:
The only reason that highsec is littered with literally thousands of offline POS is that
…space isn't nearly as rare as people want to make it out to be. Most of them are in truly horrible locations and there are enough free moons to make it a non-issue.

Quote:
Honestly, I am surprised at your defence of such low risk mechanics.
I'm surprised at the attempt to reduce the risk and effort of a zero-risk and zero-effort activity for no good reason.
What you're asking for is already in the game.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#786 - 2014-04-16 10:49:44 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Inventors cannot set the prices on all the items. It is impossible for them to undercut BPOs in most cases. Roll

That doesn't matter when T2 BPOs cannot meet demand.
Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#787 - 2014-04-16 10:52:23 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Heh... the production capacity is not an issue. It haven't been in the past either. But I can see where your assumption comes from. The base of your logic is that a player has a T2 BPO and that the volume is not enough to fill or control the market. But, I'm talking about a single player here with 20+ accounts and dozens of T2 BPOs of the same type.
…and their production capacity is not nearly enough to push out inventors from the market. They're not assumptions — they're a matter of recorded fact. Again, if it's worth inventing, inventors control the market and there is nothing the BPO holders can do about it any more. Those days are long gone. The summer expansion does not change this in any way.

Quote:
Additionally, your argument is still missing the fact that the majority of industrial players play by one rules for years and the handful of players are milking the game mechanics that was discontinued a long time ago).
If by “milking” you mean “make far less ISK than if they could produce at high volume” then yes. It's not a particularly intuitive interpretation of the word, though. No, I'm not missing it. I'm saying that it is pretty much irrelevant on the scale of things — most BPO holders these days still haven't paid off their initial investment, and likely never will unless they can find a seller to take on the debt.


If it was possible in the past to control the market and make things less profitable to inventors by simply manufacturing the items from T2 BPOs, it would clearly not be a problem to do the same if the T2 BPO copying speed gets boosted. You see a chance for cheap T2 BPCs (although that only has a significant potential to ruin the game for the inventors), and I see the potential for expansion of manufacturing capabilities of those who already own neat amounts of T2 BPOs. Increasing copy speeds and making it worthwhile to copy AND manufacture from T2 BPOs will only make market control more easy for those who already had the means to do it in the past.

The BPO holders that you are talking about obtained their BPOs by buying them of the market. Those are low volumes of single BPOs exchanged for insane amounts of ISK between individuals and are not a part of the main T2 BPO pool - those are just peripheral trades by those who thought that they can compete (but they really can't). As I said, those who control what happens with the majority of T2 BPOs and how T2 BPOs are really affecting the game are not willing to go on the market. After all why would they.
DoToo Foo
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#788 - 2014-04-16 10:54:37 UTC
My simple solution to make moons available and prevent 'camping' by inactive POS.

Modify the criminal activity of shooting an offline POS to a 'suspect' rather than a criminal act.

If you want to make *easy* to take down a highsec POS, remove all criminal activity for shooting offline POS.

http://foo-eve.blogspot.com.au/
Aeonidis
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#789 - 2014-04-16 10:54:43 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Aeonidis wrote:
all T2 Invention should be worthwhile to the new inventor and even more worthwhile to the high skilled inventor.

So you want it to be a press button recieve bacon situation?

That no matter how over-produced a specific T2 item is, it should always be profitable to produce for the new player and even more profitable to produce for the experienced player?

How is that ever going to work in a free market sandbox?

Doesn't that go totally against everything EVE is about?

What you need is for CCP to keep up with the continuous rebalancing effort, so that more and more T2 products become usefull and all T2 prices are set by the inventors.


No I dont want an easy button. that is exactly why I stated that T2 BPOs should go away.(they're not called ISK printing machines for nothing)

Like any other item in the game if its over produced then the prices should fall to reflect the oversupply.

yes I agree that T2 products should become useful enough to require players to want to invent them.

I dont agree that T2 prices should be set by the inventors. I think they should be set by the inventors and the component manufacturers. Final product prices on the market should reflect invention costs(datacores, slot pricing/pos fuel, decryptors, profit) and the actual costs to manufacture. They should not however only reflect the cost to pop out a BPC of a T2 BPO and actual costs to manufacture.

Those that invent and or manufacture from their own prints at too high a cost will either lose ISK or sit on their BPC's/T2 products till the market adjusts. At least without any T2 BPO's in the game it will eventually adjust. right now it never does on some items.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#790 - 2014-04-16 10:55:58 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
CCP should reintroduce T2 BPO but instead of a lottery, high skilled inventors should be able to invest a lot of isk to make one.

Plus one year and you would have an extremely high barrier to entry for new players. And vastly diminished profit margins.


New players have nothing to do with this. They would not have the skills or isk to invest in manufacturing a T2 BPO but when they eventually do have the isk, they can buy a Manufactured BPO on the market/contract system.

This would create endgame content for industrialist and fix CCPs mistake of adding the unbalanced BPO lottery scheme.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#791 - 2014-04-16 10:56:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Bad Bobby wrote:
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Heh... the production capacity is not an issue. It haven't been in the past either. But I can see where your assumption comes from. The base of your logic is that a player has a T2 BPO and that the volume is not enough to fill or control the market. But, I'm talking about a single player here with 20+ accounts and dozens of T2 BPOs of the same type. Put several players like that in an entity (like a corporation or alliance) and you'll get market control (yes, those are actual persons and not some hypothetical situation... and no, I'm not naming them). I was there while it was happening and I can assure you that they HAD control over the market in the past and they will have it again if the opportunity like what is going to happen in the summer expansion arrives.

And yeah... good luck obtaining enough T2 BPOs by buying them to even think of competing on the market. And even if you had enough ISK to do that, do you really think that you'd be simply able to go to the Buy Orders section of the forum and just ask for it and be flooded with offers? Big smile Market control is not something an individual is willing to sell - for any amount of ISK. Especially if it's centered around a game mechanics that have been removed for years.

Additionally, your argument is still missing the fact that the majority of industrial players play by one rules for years and the handful of players are milking the game mechanics that was discontinued a long time ago).

These game mechanics where not removed or discontinued. The T2 BPOs are still here and fully functional. Like many areas of EVE we are all given many alternative ways to achieve the same end result and we can each choose which way suits us. Just because this isn't the way you choose to do it does not make the alternatives wrong, evil or unbalanced.

Yes there has been a long history of T2 BPOs dominating various markets at various times and for various reasons. That problem has become less and less with each passing rebalance, as the breadth of demand for T2 products increases. The best solution for whatever remains of that problem is to continue with the rebalancing.


So you can still, without investing tens or hundreds of billions of ISK (disregarding the fact that owners won't sell their profitable stock in the first place) and by using an active game mechanic actually play the game and get the T2 BPO the same way others have done it more than 5 years ago? Great, do you mind pointing out where can I do that?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#792 - 2014-04-16 10:56:51 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Inventors cannot set the prices on all the items. It is impossible for them to undercut BPOs in most cases. Roll

That doesn't matter when T2 BPOs cannot meet demand.


They can easily meet the demand in many markets. Not Jita, but who cares about Jita when you can make huge profits elsewhere with a lot less effort?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#793 - 2014-04-16 11:00:15 UTC
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
If it was possible in the past
See, here's the thing: we're not in the past any more.

Quote:
to control the market and make things less profitable to inventors by simply manufacturing the items from T2 BPOs, it would clearly not be a problem to do the same if the T2 BPO copying speed gets boosted.
Yes it will, because the copying speed will not increase their production capacity to any greater degree. I think you might be overestimating what “less time consuming than manufacturing something out of it” means. It doesn't mean that you can churn out 100 runs worth of BPCs instead of running 10 manufacturing jobs; it will mean that you can churn out 11 or 12 runs rather than directly manufacture 10. It's not going to multiply how many units they can produce many times over — it's going to add maybe one or two per production run. The speed increase is there to make it so you can keep your BPOs safe and use copies rather than direct manufacturing, and slightly compensate for the delays and logistics with carting all those copies over to your manufacturing POS — it's not there to boost the actual manufacturing output.

Quote:
I see the potential for expansion of manufacturing capabilities of those who already own neat amounts of T2 BPOs. Increasing copy speeds and making it worthwhile to copy AND manufacture from T2 BPOs will only make market control more easy for those who already had the means to do it in the past.
The only thing worth-while is still production. The difference is that you'll be producing from your own copies rather than from the BPO. That is all. That “increase” will keep their (complete lack of) market control at exactly the same levels as today.
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#794 - 2014-04-16 11:00:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Bad Bobby wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Inventors cannot set the prices on all the items. It is impossible for them to undercut BPOs in most cases. Roll

That doesn't matter when T2 BPOs cannot meet demand.

Then allowing more copies in the market will dilute invention profits for that item and become another isk making activity by selling copies for T2 BPO owners. I think the vast majority of players that invest in invention would have a problem with that.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
Lady hunter
Doomheim
#795 - 2014-04-16 11:02:17 UTC
Love the industry changes and the stations stuff is really good as is really needed.

But as for the poses not sure it will be worth the risk with plex prices increasing i run an alt corp making copies and selling them only make a 1.1 bil take away office rent, a plex and fuel and now i would have to risk all my blueprints going to sell my toon that's got the decent skills that i dont use just sit around training for the sake of it and put the rest of the account inactive.

But its really good to see them finally working on science and indi.
Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#796 - 2014-04-16 11:08:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Tippia wrote:
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
If it was possible in the past
See, here's the thing: we're not in the past any more.

Quote:
to control the market and make things less profitable to inventors by simply manufacturing the items from T2 BPOs, it would clearly not be a problem to do the same if the T2 BPO copying speed gets boosted.
Yes it will, because the copying speed will not increase their production capacity to any greater degree. I think you might be overestimating what “less time consuming than manufacturing something out of it” means. It doesn't mean that you can churn out 100 runs worth of BPCs instead of running 10 manufacturing jobs; it will mean that you can churn out 11 or 12 runs rather than directly manufacture 10. It's not going to multiply how many units they can produce many times over — it's going to add maybe one or two per production run. The speed increase is there to make it so you can keep your BPOs safe and use copies rather than direct manufacturing, and slightly compensate for the delays and logistics with carting all those copies over to your manufacturing POS — it's not there to boost the actual manufacturing output.

Quote:
I see the potential for expansion of manufacturing capabilities of those who already own neat amounts of T2 BPOs. Increasing copy speeds and making it worthwhile to copy AND manufacture from T2 BPOs will only make market control more easy for those who already had the means to do it in the past.
The only thing worth-while is still production. The difference is that you'll be producing from your own copies rather than from the BPO. That is all. That “increase” will keep their (complete lack of) market control at exactly the same levels as today.


Add a new account with 3 manufacturers... There: production capacity increased by 33 slots. And since it's faster to copy than to produce now, the only limit of how big you want to go is how much free time you have at your disposal. Currently, the cap is set hard to the amount of T2 BPOs that you own... well, with these changes - not any more. And the best part is - you're hardly investing any ISK or effort while doing it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#797 - 2014-04-16 11:10:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Add a new account with 3 manufacturers... There: production capacity increased by 33 slots.
…which won't be able to produce any faster than the BPO already could.

That Invuln II blueprint will go from taking 213 hours to produce a batch of 100 and, what, 500 hours(?) to make a 100-run copy to taking 213 hours to produce a batch of 100 and taking 200 hours to make a 100-run copy — not enough to dominate any markets, but enough to make it worth-while to use the copies in a production POS.

Sure, you could make 10 10-run copies instead and run those 10 copies in parallel. It'll still take 200 hours to do so and while the end product comes out quicker during the production step, you are then idling while the next batch of copies is being researched. The number of runs you can squeeze out of the BPO per time period won't really change.

Quote:
Currently, the cap is set hard to the amount of T2 BPOs that you own... well, with these changes
…the cap will be pretty much exactly the same.
Commander Venture
Joint Espionage and Defence Industries
FuriaHispana.
#798 - 2014-04-16 11:12:37 UTC
Lors Dornick wrote:
This will be fun.

Thank you CCP (and possibly CSM).

The age of Aquarius is over, this is the age of Vulcan ;)



Actually if I had to name this expansion, it'd be after Vulcanus, smith of the ancient Roman gods. Like industry in EVE, he was the unwanted child that still got the job done, the Tyrion Lannister of the Roman pantheon.
Miktek
Phoenix Connection
Lack of Judgement.
#799 - 2014-04-16 11:17:28 UTC
Will the niggles like currently not being able to stack BPC (of the same ME/PE) or the multiple clicks in setting up multiple build jobs for the same item be fixed at the same time
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#800 - 2014-04-16 11:18:35 UTC
can we turn off the new interface and use the old one that we all know and love/hate?

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.