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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
#361 - 2014-04-15 18:40:46 UTC
Myxx wrote:
Rapscallion Jones wrote:
Myxx wrote:
Rapscallion Jones wrote:
Chanina wrote:


So you are telling that you won't touch Invention with this expansion but greatly increasing the output of high quality T2 BPCs?

Am I the only inventor here that doesn't like that change much? Yes a new guy wouldn't need that much to get into T2 Production, but
a) the very limited group of producers for this high quality BPCs and
b) the lack of competitors through invention
will yield in high prices and again a lot of profit to people who already had years of time to pull out the profit from there investment.


This 100x over! If you want to eliminate invention just come out and say it. When shall we expect Tech 2 BPOs to be seeded on the market?

You really need to re-examine this. T2 BPO copies aren't going to get sold for the most part. They'll be used for production, alts will be made to copy in stations in total safety. We'll have to log in slightly more often, but we can still spread our production chain out if need be. This is what I'm pretty sure CCP is expecting.


And meanwhile inventors wait until October or December to be competitive with your buff while they work out what to do next.

um... no. This is actually liable to be more annoying for me than it is you.


You'll have to excuse me if I'm not sympathetic to your having to update your spreadsheets to reflect your new found profits.
i hatechosingnames
Insert Corporation Name Here
#362 - 2014-04-15 18:40:50 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Knug LiDi wrote:


Singular quote system will be very slow. Can we not have a region-wide response to the same query? These values should be calculated (daily?) and stored for recall. This could be similar to the contract market. Give me a table of choices ! Just like shopping for mission agents.


You will also get a list of locations you can install the job in the region with a way to compare their relative pricing.



How long will these quotes be valid for? How often will popularity effect the price of the manufacturing slot?

If I see I have just enough isk to install a job 4 jumps, fly out there with everything I need to install the job to find popularity has pushed the price past what I can afford, I would be a little annoyed with the system.
If the popularity tax is able to shift at any-time, will we be able to get these quotes prices valid for a set time? eg 60 minutes?
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#363 - 2014-04-15 18:41:14 UTC
So many 'omg my BPO won't be safe in a station anymore!' tears :D What part of risk vs reward don't you people understand? You want safety? Enjoy copying your BPO to keep it safe.

Also I'm loving the indirect effect on the production of super caps this is going to have.

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#364 - 2014-04-15 18:42:55 UTC
Kadl wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Chanina wrote:
I like the overall attitude of this dev blog but improving use of T2 BPOs further isn't something I'm looking forward to. Not if there aren't improvements to Invented BPC quality.

Meh. They get slightly higher output on items where the market is already fully controlled by invention, and it lasts maybe one expansion cycle. I don't see inventors being particularly hurt by that one.


Slightly higher output for T2 BPOs => Slightly lower output for invention => Slightly lower profits for invention.

Your argument is that we should ignore the benefits reaped by T2 BPO owners because they are small. I think that is a move in the wrong direction, and should be avoided. I would like CCP to make a commitment to avoid improving the overall use of T2 BPO for their owners. I am uncertain whether the overall situation will improve for T2 BPO owners. For example, will they end up being required to place their T2 BPO in a POS in order to reach the old levels of production.


Before we get on the "OMG T2 BPO's must die" hype train, I think we should wait and see what other changes are in store for us.

In general, T2 BPO's are a good thing for this game. They only control a small market fraction for most items in game, they have been in the game soo long that generally those who own them worked hard to collect them, and they provide cheaper products for the general population on the markets they do control.

Furthermore, this change makes it riskier to utilize a T2 BPO, as it must be in a POS to use it at a POS, or it suffers the same line markups as everyone else (which you can use to encourage a T2 BPO holder to "move" his asset).

Finally, we don't know how POS's, Lowsec Stations, and Outposts will be altered in this industry release. They could have some interesting benefits that we don't know about yet.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#365 - 2014-04-15 18:42:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Kadl wrote:
Slightly higher output for T2 BPOs => Slightly lower output for invention => Slightly lower profits for invention.
No, the output of T2 BPOs does not affect the output of invention, and the market prices for most T2 stuff is determined by the invention so there's very little to suggest that their profits will go down by any appreciable amount anyway.

Quote:
Your argument is that we should ignore the benefits reaped by T2 BPO owners because they are small.
No, my argument is that we should look at the change as a whole, not pick apart small portions of it before the entire edifice is ready. If BPO owners get some minor benefit for a single expansion cycle, then so what. Wait until you know what happens to invention before complaining about what happens to invention. Right now, the same copying speed increase that benefits BPO holders benefits inventors as well, as they can react more quickly to changing markets (which is the already huge benefit they enjoy).

Myxx wrote:
I see. Then I misunderstood. We have different ideas as to what is good for the use of moons and starbases.

I don't have any problem with the copying process being injected as a first step in manufacturing — it creates an interesting dynamic and planning element. The rest should be swallowed up in pre-existing logistics. There are indeed some worries here, but there's no point in screaming about them until the research blog is out and we know what it'll actually look like.

theman428 wrote:
sorry using your quote here but tippia not all of it is good... this will utterly destroy the ability to make supers and titans. people will have to spend months of time copying BPOs to make these ships since they cannot be produced in a station or in high sec... so tell me how thats good for the economy.

It won't destroy anything. It will delay the production of certain items by introducing a copying step (unless you want to risk it by manufacturing stuff right this second). This is good for two reasons: it creates a greater uniformity between different types of production and puts some pressure on these new “infinite” slots — it makes the bottleneck dynamic and universal rather than static and selective. It also rewards planning and forethought more, and smooths out dips and peaks in the economy.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#366 - 2014-04-15 18:44:15 UTC
Adellle Nadair wrote:


You are an edge case variant. And are in no way representative of the majority that this change effects.

i am responding to a guy saying it screws up supercap production which is simply obviously wrong

why you're wrong is just obvious on its face because tons of highsec systems have research and factories in the same system so that effort barrier is flying from one station to another like once a week, hardly some actual effort barrier

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#367 - 2014-04-15 18:44:40 UTC
Rapscallion Jones wrote:
And meanwhile inventors wait until October or December to be competitive with your buff while they work out what to do next.

They'll be as competitive as ever since they already massively outproduce BPOs on everything worth-while. Your competition, as always, is other inventors.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#368 - 2014-04-15 18:45:06 UTC
Tense reading session...

  • Cleaning market groups... sure..
  • Stopping the damage... not bad, not bad..
  • Extra Materials - still not bad..
  • Removing indy slots - Needs way way more details. How will people tell the cost of manu in different areas? This is making some POS obsolete? Why not keep manu slots + add the scaling cost, this way would be easy to spot how busy a station is remotely, allow more slots in LS/NS, etc.
  • Allow Starbases to be anchored anywhere in high-security space - Uhmmmm.. makes it too easy imo but I agree standing grind is horrible... okay.
  • Having to move blueprints to POS to use them - Wait.... WHAT??!!!! #%)(% *% !)(% !# % % !&% ( #%! % !* % )!%# %&%)(!#% %!#*&^^&) ! #$(* % !#&%(%#!$# !#%&(%#!)#%& ! $ ! $&! )%& % ! %!(%&

Okay... it is apparent that people making the decision on this have never dealt with serious industry production, or are trying to kill personalized production in favor of forcing people to use station services instead of POS and forcing them to spread all over EVE. Why is this apparent? Because anyone who knows how mass production works would shudder at the mere thought of such prospect, let alone think of implementing it. And no, it's not just the security that's at stake.

CCP Ytterbium and everyone else involved, I invite you to join my corporation for a few days. I will walk you through the industry process, especially the way you think it should be done. I encourage you to live through it for a couple of days before you condemn us all to this nightmare of a scenario.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#369 - 2014-04-15 18:45:50 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
protip research poshavers: it is expected and anticipated your expensive bpos will be moved to station slots, you should stop appearing flabbergasted that you will have to move them

Also, read the following line in the devblog again:

• Reduce copy time on all blueprints to be less time consuming than manufacturing something out of it. This gives the option to use blueprint copies to build items at Starbases without risking the original.

Moving the BPO around will be no more needed than it currently is. The big change is rather than you will need to expend one character's research capacity on creating copies to build from.

Exactly this.

Granted if you want to improve your BPO's or make copies of them at a POS you'll be putting your BPO's at risk... unless there is something up CCP's sleeve.

If they don't then I"m not sure what they will do about research POS hardware, as it likely won't get used much.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Proton Power
BLOPSEC
WE FORM V0LTA
#370 - 2014-04-15 18:46:21 UTC
Tetania wrote:
Ok. I'm intrigued and I'll wait patiently for the rest of the plan to be unveiled.

As someone who builds Titans I'd just like to get another voice behind considerations for POS building.

Reducing copy time would certainly be viable for Hull Building after a brief delay to get copies started after the first post patch build that will be fine.

Components tho. Assuming a 1man corp which is going to be a must without lockdown. You still need to keep either 30Bil of BPOs in a POS anc choose betwen gambling on a successful defense or destroying around 20Bil in minerals to retrieve the BPOs while the POS is being reinforced. Or drastically increase your hauling from Refine minerals in station and haul to POS in system. To Refine minerals in Station and haul through a stargate to an Amarr station and then haul components from station to POS to build the ship off a BPC.

I already use 8 freighters multiboxed and consider the existing movement excessive. This would be hundreds of trips.

Upping the copies on a component BPC to 45-50 would be start as long as copy time is <= build time.

Otherwise allowing mineral recovery when jobs are cancelled would be an option but it forces a very very high attention level on POSes and makes eve a literal job to avoid catastrophic loss of assets.

I know supercap builders are the 1% but please don't make the extreme edge cases of ****** mechanics worse for us.


Its not just Super Caps, its any Capital Producer or T2 Producer...

Right now to produce my line of stuff I use 220 Factory slots 24/7, leaving 30 in the system for randoms taht come in or random jobs we install. Meaning overtime I am sure that tax rate will get up to 14%...

So Lets say I produce 5 T2 BPO's out of those, well I first get hit with 14% fee on the T2 Components, then another 14% fee on the T1 comonents, and then another 14% fee on the RAM, and then another 14% fee on the t2 builds.

Well I could build in the POS, oh wait, who will move t2 bpo's to a POS???

Really not liking some of this..
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#371 - 2014-04-15 18:47:57 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
You will also get a list of locations you can install the job in the region with a way to compare their relative pricing.
So I guess just to beat a dead horse, will the UI show "Cost if nobody is using it (0% increase): X" and "Cost currently with station "full" (+14% increase): Y"? Or, will the UI just show a range of prices from station to station not really divulging the amount of "traffic" at that station? I mean, I guess what I'm getting at is will we be able to see that absolute best price (0%) relative to all stations that may or may not be incurring a price hike because of demand?

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Myxx
Incredible.
#372 - 2014-04-15 18:48:02 UTC
Rapscallion Jones wrote:
Myxx wrote:
Rapscallion Jones wrote:


And meanwhile inventors wait until October or December to be competitive with your buff while they work out what to do next.

um... no. This is actually liable to be more annoying for me than it is you.


You'll have to excuse me if I'm not sympathetic to your having to update your spreadsheets to reflect your new found profits.


No.

I'll spell this out using smaller words for you:

You get to keep pretty much all of your logistics and infastructure in place without much change. The production chain I am apart of, however, will have to increase the number of systems and stations we use which also involves moving a lot of crap around needlessly.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#373 - 2014-04-15 18:48:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ranger 1 wrote:
Exactly this.

Granted if you want to improve your BPO's or make copies of them at a POS you'll be putting your BPO's at risk... unless there is something up CCP's sleeve.

If they don't then I"m not sure what they will do about research POS hardware, as it likely won't get used much.

With the long-term benefits it provides, I'm fairly certain that keeping those BPOs locked up in the station and just paying the congestion fee for doing the research there will pay itself off in the long run. So that particular sleeve seems to be exposed already.

I suppose this could mean that some BPOs stay in “stasis” for longer while they're being researched at a safe location, but I'm also fairly certain that the new BPO-BPC dynamic will create new fixes for that logistical need, and make the whole thing built into the overall production process.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#374 - 2014-04-15 18:48:33 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Tense reading session...

  • Cleaning market groups... sure..
  • Stopping the damage... not bad, not bad..
  • Extra Materials - still not bad..
  • Removing indy slots - Needs way way more details. How will people tell the cost of manu in different areas? This is making some POS obsolete? Why not keep manu slots + add the scaling cost, this way would be easy to spot how busy a station is remotely, allow more slots in LS/NS, etc.
  • Allow Starbases to be anchored anywhere in high-security space - Uhmmmm.. makes it too easy imo but I agree standing grind is horrible... okay.
  • Having to move blueprints to POS to use them - Wait.... WHAT??!!!! #%)(% *% !)(% !# % % !&% ( #%! % !* % )!%# %&%)(!#% %!#*&^^&) ! #$(* % !#&%(%#!$# !#%&(%#!)#%& ! $ ! $&! )%& % ! %!(%&

Okay... it is apparent that people making the decision on this have never dealt with serious industry production, or are trying to kill personalized production in favor of forcing people to use station services instead of POS and forcing them to spread all over EVE. Why is this apparent? Because anyone who knows how mass production works would shudder at the mere thought of such prospect, let alone think of implementing it. And no, it's not just the security that's at stake.

CCP Ytterbium and everyone else involved, I invite you to join my corporation for a few days. I will walk you through the industry process, especially the way you think it should be done. I encourage you to live through it for a couple of days before you condemn us all to this nightmare of a scenario.

Perhaps you should read the entire blog first.

Pay particular attention to the part concerning the reduction in the time it will take to make BPC's, thus facilitating using them to build from in POS's.

Perhaps lose a bit of the condescension as well, as it's making you look a bit foolish right now.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#375 - 2014-04-15 18:49:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mai Khumm
Before my post got thoughtfully locked by ISD from asking questions. (And received answers from Devs.)

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=337284

I was directed here!

I'll ask what couldn't be answered here!

Was this new "I don't need standings anymore to dump POSs" tested in Nullsec to prevent Alliances from dumping a POS in another Alliances territory?

With abandoned POSs, what is currently in place to prevent alliances from dumping a POS on every moon in highsec/near large tradehubs then abandoning them?

As was suggest in said thread which I will repost here since it is a good idea.

Quote:

After X days (I say 7-10) after the POS has been without fuel. The POS in question model will change to make it look abandoned. At that point, you can use the Hacking minigame to hack and "Highjack" the POS in question..


-edit-

I hope to actually get an answer to this...
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#376 - 2014-04-15 18:51:33 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Exactly this.

Granted if you want to improve your BPO's or make copies of them at a POS you'll be putting your BPO's at risk... unless there is something up CCP's sleeve.

If they don't then I"m not sure what they will do about research POS hardware, as it likely won't get used much.

With the long-term benefits it provides, I'm fairly certain that keeping those BPOs locked up in the station and just paying the congestion fee for doing the research there will pay itself off in the long run. So that particular sleeve seems to be exposed already.

I'm assuming this to be the case, but you never know.

If it's left like it is the bad is that POS research labs will go unused, which bothers me a bit.

However the immense good that would come out of it is that there would be a huge number of BPC's being transported around. Big smile

Shuttle pilots beware. SmileSmileSmile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Death Ryder
Angels and Devils
Get Off My Lawn
#377 - 2014-04-15 18:51:51 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Entity wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Entity wrote:
So you're saying 8 years of operating a hisec POS with 2.5 trillion ISK worth (that's 2500 billion) of BPOs, you're suddenly expecting me to put said 2.5 trillion ISK into a paper space container and not locked down in my hangar?

I like the changes but that part is just flabbergastingly stupid

the real issue here is your apparent belief you should be entitled to get the most advantages possible from your 2.5 trillion in bpos absolutely risk free and how long that was tolerated

eight years was 7.9 too long


Risk free? What? Is your brain turned off or something?

- The pos alone is worth 8 billion+ (all faction stuff)
- I stand to lose a month worth of product to the tune of 20 billion if someone decides to blow it up.

I'm fine with -that- risk, but having to literally put ALL my eggs in that one easy to pop basket is completely unacceptable.


Let's see who CCP listens to:

1. One of the most famous, long term players in the game, who knows a thing or 2, or a million, about Eve industry.
2. A member of a group dedicated to ruining gameplay for as many as possible, and who is openly gloating over the changes.



theyll listen to the DH from goon cause theyve shown themselves to be pvp supporters all along unfortunately... we're the fodder that ccp feeds them wih..
In ViTrIoL
Sons of Ivaldi
#378 - 2014-04-15 18:52:50 UTC
so will RAM be used up like any other material?
Chanina
ASGARD HEAVY INDUSTRIES
#379 - 2014-04-15 18:53:03 UTC
Myxx wrote:
Rapscallion Jones wrote:
Myxx wrote:
Rapscallion Jones wrote:
Chanina wrote:


So you are telling that you won't touch Invention with this expansion but greatly increasing the output of high quality T2 BPCs?

Am I the only inventor here that doesn't like that change much? Yes a new guy wouldn't need that much to get into T2 Production, but
a) the very limited group of producers for this high quality BPCs and
b) the lack of competitors through invention
will yield in high prices and again a lot of profit to people who already had years of time to pull out the profit from there investment.


This 100x over! If you want to eliminate invention just come out and say it. When shall we expect Tech 2 BPOs to be seeded on the market?

You really need to re-examine this. T2 BPO copies aren't going to get sold for the most part. They'll be used for production, alts will be made to copy in stations in total safety. We'll have to log in slightly more often, but we can still spread our production chain out if need be. This is what I'm pretty sure CCP is expecting.


And meanwhile inventors wait until October or December to be competitive with your buff while they work out what to do next.

um... no. This is actually liable to be more annoying for me than it is you.


Thou you are currently making profit by selling products you build cheaper than any inventor could dream off and it gets annoying for you that you may have to change your production from 24/7 one time production to a "I have to copy them first" and then put multiple productions in parallel. Which will most likely yield a higher net output of products ... and now you are the one who might get annoyed... for being able to make more profit?

Well sorry but I don't feel sorry for that.
Adellle Nadair
Nuclear Midnight
#380 - 2014-04-15 18:53:15 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Adellle Nadair wrote:


You are an edge case variant. And are in no way representative of the majority that this change effects.

i am responding to a guy saying it screws up supercap production which is simply obviously wrong

why you're wrong is just obvious on its face because tons of highsec systems have research and factories in the same system so that effort barrier is flying from one station to another like once a week, hardly some actual effort barrier


Quote:
effort barrier is flying from one station to another like once a week


Like I said, you don't know what you are talking about. This change will give anyone who does normal industrial activities a headache. It will greatly increase the time and effort needed to do industry.