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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Cruisers

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Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#601 - 2014-04-08 19:45:34 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The ONLY trick the gila now has over it is superdrones, but that only makes EWAR against the drones more effective as you only have 2 targets to take out of the fight instead of 5. Not to mention that in the case of lights, the new gila goes from 7.5 effective to 4.


I never really understood that thing about drones and EWAR. It came up with the worm update too.

When Curtis Le May first saw the original iteration for the XB-70 Valkyrie bomber, he exclaimed "This is not an airplane, its a three ship formation!".

And this is exactly what you get with the new Gila. You have 7.5 launchers, and 2 drones that each have the DPS and the buffer of an assault frigate++.

I don't know about you, I really love having 10 assault frigates in my drone bay.


50 assault frigs, its just that you can only use 10 at a time, damn bandwidth lol.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#602 - 2014-04-08 19:47:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Jenn aSide wrote:


50 assault frigs, its just that you can only use 10 at a time, damn bandwidth lol.


Nah, you get 12 med drone equivalents per flight (x6 damage and hitpoints per drone), with another 48 on your bay (for a total of 60 med drone equivalents per Gila). Each one of your 10 med drones has the EHP of a buffer AF. 50 AFs would be pushing it...XD
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#603 - 2014-04-08 19:48:20 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The ONLY trick the gila now has over it is superdrones, but that only makes EWAR against the drones more effective as you only have 2 targets to take out of the fight instead of 5. Not to mention that in the case of lights, the new gila goes from 7.5 effective to 4.


I never really understood that thing about drones and EWAR. It came up with the worm update too.

When Curtis Le May first saw the original iteration for the XB-70 Valkyrie bomber, he exclaimed "This is not an airplane, its a three ship formation!".

And this is exactly what you get with the new Gila. You have 7.5 launchers, and 2 drones that each have the DPS and the buffer of an assault frigate++.

I don't know about you, I really love having 10 assault frigates in my drone bay.
With 5 drone ships doing anything to a single drone is a loss of 20% of my drone DPS and on a hull with weapons fitted probably around 15% overall DPS loss. Reducing the drones to 2 increases that number to 50% of my drone DPS being affected and probably 30-40% of my overall DPS. I'm not opposed to the implementation, I'm just pointing out that it creates it's own weaknesses. That and it exasperates the failings of drone AI.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#604 - 2014-04-08 19:50:34 UTC
Honestly, those of you deriding non-sentry drones in PvE have clearly never been to Deklein. We use heavy drones to rat almost exclusively. They're much, much better at doing sites than sentries are. If you can't figure out why, I'd recommend withdrawing from any thread about PvE and drones.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Koizumi Atsuchi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#605 - 2014-04-08 19:52:29 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Koizumi Atsuchi wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Internally we are a bit divided even though we all agree it's one of the game's most powerful bonuses. I want to try and leave it because unique points of power like this one, as long as they aren't oppressive, are more interesting than moving everything towards a middle ground.


I agree, I haven't made much use of serpentis web bonuses, but all the rage in this thread makes me want to go give it a try now. If ship features (in this case, web bonus) can't stand out in meaningful ways, then why bother with this balancing work in the first place? "Moving everything towards a middle ground" as you put it is what most games do, and reduces true variety to a mere illusion of variety.

Also, I'm a little unclear on where the Cynabal stands now. Giving it a warp speed bonus feels a big gimmicky. Gimmicky is fine as long as this token bonus isn't being used to justify a nerf elsewhere. If you're doing fleet warps, it'll be a moot point point 90% of the time. I can't say that warp speed comes up too often in our PvP postmortems. Ugh

The cynabal really doesn't need to be nerfed, at least no one here seems to think so. Is the idea is to just move it out of the spotlight a bit to give other ships a larger chunk of the mindshare?

If you don't see the benefit of effectively giving a ship the warp speed of the ship class below it, then you are doing it wrong.


Warping speed buff is great, but its a lame bonus. Lowering scan res and agility an giving more sig, these bonuses just contradict each other, how would you imagine ship ship to be used?


That warp speed bonus is extremely useful for a roaming ship in null - which is supposed to be Angels' prime niche. The importance of the ability to outrun similar-size ships shouldn't be underestimated.

It's also a great bonus from a balancing point of view, because while, useful and valuable, it doesn't influence the ships' abilities on the field in the way that, say, a range or speed bonus would.


Its assuming that cyna is too overpowered at the moment or better than any other pirate cruiser.

The way i understand pirate faction cruisers is that all of them have damage bonus and some kind of 'exotic' bonus to divide then into roles. F.e. vigi has a web bonus, means keep the hell away from that ship cause if youre webbed youre in a bad situation. That dictates playstyle.

Now with cynabal, its abilities are to control engagement range and have low sig radius, while having decent dps. Adding warp speed bonus and lowering its previous capabilities would certainly be an interesting turn, but many will agree that its a boring bonus.

Now having its mwd resistance to scram or webb would be a truly interesting choice, sth innovative and diffrent, sth you could really use in a fight, not sth that is built in already and requires no further skill to use.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#606 - 2014-04-08 19:53:30 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:


I don't know about you, I really love having 10 assault frigates in my drone bay.
With 5 drone ships doing anything to a single drone is a loss of 20% of my drone DPS and on a hull with weapons fitted probably around 15% overall DPS loss. Reducing the drones to 2 increases that number to 50% of my drone DPS being affected and probably 30-40% of my overall DPS.[/quote]

The Gila has room for more medium drones

Quote:

I'm not opposed to the implementation, I'm just pointing out that it creates it's own weaknesses. That and it exasperates the failings of drone AI.


Everything that powerful needs a weakness IMO. And which faillings of Drone AI are you talking about specifically?
Rain6637
NulzSec
#607 - 2014-04-08 19:53:42 UTC
because ratting in deklein is all the PVE there is. but thanks for that insight, it would explain the change maybe.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#608 - 2014-04-08 19:54:00 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Nash MacAllister wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
The Gila will still have plenty of PVE application


TBH I find that REALLY hard to believe given the current PVE AI system. Even with the proposed Medium Drone rework, this change puts the Gila solidly in the "meh" category with little hope of additional uses. There are 2 drones used for PVE, Sentries and Lights, all the others are simply too slow and die before they can be pulled back into the drone bay. Nothing proposed appears to change that.


Le Sigh

It's still hard for me to believe that after more than a year people don't know how to drone in PVE. And the new Gila will have "super drones" with more EHP (because of the gila changes) and more speed (because of the drone changes).
Please feel free to explain. My drones still grab plenty of aggro depending on what is on the field, even with 2 TP's and a full rack of missiles working to take it back. These drones are substantially more resilient, but all it takes is a single NPC webber, which you will no longer be sentry blapping at range, to partially marginalize 40% of your DPS, even if only temporarily.

Also the increase in speed isn't limited to the Gila, so it's no reason to chose the Gila over and other more flexible drone ship.


Add some logi to your TPing. DPS from ship + Logi + EWAR. I've lost a hand full of Ogre IIs from my Gila and Domi doing this semi afk. NPCs HATE logi. My current Gila EATS Gone Berserk , Buzz Kill and other missions where npcs spawn close reducing travel time.

So now instead of "Ishtar for everyhting" it would be "Ishtar for some things, but Gila is an option for others".

And with the Gila I have it following the OGRES, and since FoF missiles hit the nearest thing, the webbing frig tends to die, quickly (5% missile radius hardwiring helps though).

No one is saying sentries aren't good, but the overly orthodox and uncreative nature of many PVErs keep them from seeing how things can work if you try.
I'm not saying sentry use is the end of all things, just that having the option is nice, and now the gila doesn't. All around I see it as losing flexibility, and not much of a max DPS boost, or any major boost, in exchange. for people willing to maintain a fleet and use the absolute best tool for the job on an individual basis that's great. For more generalist use cases other drone ships will be better. I don't see that as doing the gila any favors in a game of hardwire optimizations.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#609 - 2014-04-08 19:54:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
With 5 drone ships doing anything to a single drone is a loss of 20% of my drone DPS and on a hull with weapons fitted probably around 15% overall DPS loss. Reducing the drones to 2 increases that number to 50% of my drone DPS being affected and probably 30-40% of my overall DPS. I'm not opposed to the implementation, I'm just pointing out that it creates it's own weaknesses. That and it exasperates the failings of drone AI.


The derp factor of drone AI is understandable, but the whole damage reduction via drone popping is a little off.

As we argued in the Worm thread, having less drones with more EHP means that your enemy will be less able to remove damage from the field. Even accounting for the extra targeting time (which favors 5 drones), until you are able to kill one of the 6x boosted ones you get 100% damage thrown against you. Also, the higher EHP gives you the opportunity to exchange drones on the fly in a close range PvP enviroment, thus keeping the pressure on without having your drones popped.

This is also why the EWAR argument is not that important. If the enemy has to web one of your drones to kill it then that web is off your ship, instantly giving you the "weather gauge" in the engagement.

Also, have in mind that you have another 8 drones like that in your bay, ready for launching.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#610 - 2014-04-08 19:55:24 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
because ratting in deklein is all the PVE there is. but thanks for that insight, it would explain the change maybe.

Rats are rats, unless you're in an incursion or in a wormhole. Surely you can extrapolate this to whatever boring red cross shooting thing you prefer to do.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Rain6637
NulzSec
#611 - 2014-04-08 19:58:53 UTC
any PVE with distance between point A and B. if you have to conserve your resources in null then it's worth hanging on to drones, but in other cases it's more efficient to pop sentries and proceed to point B, leaving them behind forever.
Carmen Electra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#612 - 2014-04-08 19:59:51 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Those bonuses are still superior than that which is on all the other respective ships as should be the case. As to whether they are too underpowered or not, I'd have to test them on Singularity first. My point was that the concept is good, and warp speed for a quick roaming pvp gang is a massive buff.


I think you're missing my point, or perhaps I'm not being very clear. Disclaimer, I lost a shiny pod once because an inty was able to beat me warping to a celestial. That said, I believe that example is an edge case. Warp speed has zero effect on the outcome of the vast majority of PvP engagements.

We're talking about trading bread-and-butter ship attributes that affect fitting and on-grid performance for a warp speed bonus. As someone who spends a lot of time twiddling my thumbs waiting for opposing fleets to form up (or whatever), this buff is totally bogus.
Meytal
Doomheim
#613 - 2014-04-08 20:00:23 UTC
If you see a Gila on the field, you know it will be using two mediums. Whether or not they are easy to spot depends on how much people want to use mediums after the drone nerf/rebalance. Most likely, it will still be Lights and Sentries, with occasional Heavies use in special situations. Oh, and the Gila with mediums.

Spot the Gila and (likely) easily identify his drones. Castrate his drones using your favourite method. They will have to slowboat back to him to be scooped and redeployed, with 0 effective dps the whole time, whenever the pilot manages to notice this. Meanwhile, he's doing laughable missile dps and can be ignored until he does redeploy (you lose target lock on his drones).

If you're actually going to go through with these changes to Guristas ships, tying SO much of their damage up into a much smaller number of easily-castrated drones, make those drones immune to webs, paints, ECM, and neuts when deployed by Guristas ships. Increase the orbit speed and agility (and compensate with increased tracking), and lower the sig res.


And also this is where you begin to introduce drone assist imbalances, as predicted in the Frigates thread. In large fleet battles, it's always fun to watch the cloud of drones move from target to target. Now, with 500% bonuses, you'll see target after target melt under that cloud of drones instead of mearly being stressful or annoying. It'll be interesting watching how you imbalance the Rattle when in huge numbers while destroying .. boxing it into a small corner .. ah, specializing it in other situations.


I am curious about the Phantasm though, as it's my favourite ship hull in appearance and it will be nice to see it actually usable. The conflicting bonuses unfortunately seems to indicate lack of thought and planning .
Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence
Spatial Instability
#614 - 2014-04-08 20:00:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Nash MacAllister
Jenn aSide wrote:
Nash MacAllister wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
The Gila will still have plenty of PVE application


TBH I find that REALLY hard to believe given the current PVE AI system. Even with the proposed Medium Drone rework, this change puts the Gila solidly in the "meh" category with little hope of additional uses. There are 2 drones used for PVE, Sentries and Lights, all the others are simply too slow and die before they can be pulled back into the drone bay. Nothing proposed appears to change that.


Le Sigh

It's still hard for me to believe that after more than a year people don't know how to drone in PVE. And the new Gila will have "super drones" with more EHP (because of the gila changes) and more speed (because of the drone changes).


Actually, I am very familiar with the mechanics of this both before and after the last significant AI change so drop the attitude and simpleton comment. Super drones? Lol. Even after these changes, if anything other than Sentries and Lights are viable in ANY shape or form in PVE I will be quite amazed. Would it be nice to have options? Absolutely. Will anything I see proposed result in that being a reality? Based on what has been presented, I don't think so.

This move to 2 drones versus 5 is simply bad for a variety of reasons already discussed. And what about the Gila for PVP? This ensures it has no place there either. Give me a Gila with 5x Heavies and some sort of a damage/speed bonus and now we are on to something.

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#615 - 2014-04-08 20:01:43 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I'm not saying sentry use is the end of all things, just that having the option is nice, and now the gila doesn't. All around I see it as losing flexibility, and not much of a max DPS boost, or any major boost, in exchange. for people willing to maintain a fleet and use the absolute best tool for the job on an individual basis that's great. For more generalist use cases other drone ships will be better. I don't see that as doing the gila any favors in a game of hardwire optimizations.


The problem is the ishtar, meaning less use of the current Gila. It becomes the "Domi vs Rattlesnake" just with cruisers, unless you need a bunch of passive shield tank, why use a 'Sanke for pve when a Domi can get almost as much dps with just drones (and more with guns) for 1/4th the cost.

The ishtar isn't that expensive, but after a pilot can fly an ishtar, there just isn't much need for the Gila which is why you see Ishtars doing PVE stuff in Guristas space rather than the actual Gurista's Cruiser. With the kin/therm bonus, extra launcher and bonused to hell hammerheads that are better against small targets close in the Gila actually has something of an edge over the ishtar for the 1st time i can remember.

I'm not kidding, I'm going to fly that sucker till the armor shakes off in Serp/guristas pve..
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#616 - 2014-04-08 20:02:00 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
The Gila has room for more medium drones
But can only use 2 at a time, hence why the loss is only temporary, for a good pilot only as long as it takes them to recall and relaunch or abandon and launch a new one.

Quote:
Everything that powerful needs a weakness IMO. And which faillings of Drone AI are you talking about specifically?
At least the NPC AI seems to have a favorite food amongst possible targets and can change if the situation changes (cruisers on my ogres like me on free pizza), but if I'm jammed and my drone aggros something it can't catch it will just pursue it in vain. Also the whole inability to manage angular velocity, or not shooting while in MWD following something.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#617 - 2014-04-08 20:03:02 UTC
Nash MacAllister wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Nash MacAllister wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
The Gila will still have plenty of PVE application


TBH I find that REALLY hard to believe given the current PVE AI system. Even with the proposed Medium Drone rework, this change puts the Gila solidly in the "meh" category with little hope of additional uses. There are 2 drones used for PVE, Sentries and Lights, all the others are simply too slow and die before they can be pulled back into the drone bay. Nothing proposed appears to change that.


Le Sigh

It's still hard for me to believe that after more than a year people don't know how to drone in PVE. And the new Gila will have "super drones" with more EHP (because of the gila changes) and more speed (because of the drone changes).


Actually, I am very familiar with the mechanics of this both before and after the last significant AI change so drop the attitude and simpleton comment. Super drones? Lol. Even after these changes, if anything other than Sentries and Lights are viable in ANY shape or form in PVE I will be quite amazed. Would it be nice to have options? Absolutely. Will anything I see proposed result in that being a reality? Based on what has been presented, I don't think so.
\

You mean like the Ogre IIs i already use in pve? with my Gila and Domi?

Prepare to be amazed then lol. How can so many pve jocks be so clueless about pve? Isn't that what a PVE player is supposed to know about?
Rain6637
NulzSec
#618 - 2014-04-08 20:04:56 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I'm not saying sentry use is the end of all things, just that having the option is nice, and now the gila doesn't. All around I see it as losing flexibility, and not much of a max DPS boost, or any major boost, in exchange. for people willing to maintain a fleet and use the absolute best tool for the job on an individual basis that's great. For more generalist use cases other drone ships will be better. I don't see that as doing the gila any favors in a game of hardwire optimizations.


The problem is the ishtar, meaning less use of the current Gila. It becomes the "Domi vs Rattlesnake" just with cruisers, unless you need a bunch of passive shield tank, why use a 'Sanke for pve when a Domi can get almost as much dps with just drones (and more with guns) for 1/4th the cost.

The ishtar isn't that expensive, but after a pilot can fly an ishtar, there just isn't much need for the Gila which is why you see Ishtars doing PVE stuff in Guristas space rather than the actual Gurista's Cruiser. With the kin/therm bonus, extra launcher and bonused to hell hammerheads that are better against small targets close in the Gila actually has something of an edge over the ishtar for the 1st time i can remember.

I'm not kidding, I'm going to fly that sucker till the armor shakes off in Serp/guristas pve..

what missions or PVE are you running, because I can't think of many lucrative ones that plant you close to your targets, close enough that mediums are the best option.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#619 - 2014-04-08 20:06:47 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I'm not saying sentry use is the end of all things, just that having the option is nice, and now the gila doesn't. All around I see it as losing flexibility, and not much of a max DPS boost, or any major boost, in exchange. for people willing to maintain a fleet and use the absolute best tool for the job on an individual basis that's great. For more generalist use cases other drone ships will be better. I don't see that as doing the gila any favors in a game of hardwire optimizations.


The problem is the ishtar, meaning less use of the current Gila. It becomes the "Domi vs Rattlesnake" just with cruisers, unless you need a bunch of passive shield tank, why use a 'Sanke for pve when a Domi can get almost as much dps with just drones (and more with guns) for 1/4th the cost.

The ishtar isn't that expensive, but after a pilot can fly an ishtar, there just isn't much need for the Gila which is why you see Ishtars doing PVE stuff in Guristas space rather than the actual Gurista's Cruiser. With the kin/therm bonus, extra launcher and bonused to hell hammerheads that are better against small targets close in the Gila actually has something of an edge over the ishtar for the 1st time i can remember.

I'm not kidding, I'm going to fly that sucker till the armor shakes off in Serp/guristas pve..
Yeah, Gila vs Ishtar (and to a lesser extent stratios) is kinda my point. The Ishtar still remains the generalist go to. Only mission specific min maxers who are in situations where cruiser level agility is preferential to BS firepower and actually prefer the use of drones will SOMETIMES feel the gila to be superior. I don't think the design is bad persay, just that it moves the ship from one niche into a slightly tighter one when comparing to counterparts.
Arch1bald
Repercussus
Reverberation Project
#620 - 2014-04-08 20:10:09 UTC
Great, the other arggg ships get a useful bonus.

Go burn in hell and rot over and over for killing the cyn. Fk u CCP for killing every god damm ship I like in this game.