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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Cruisers

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Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#461 - 2014-04-08 15:30:15 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
I'll catch up with the 20-odd pages soon, but here are my initial thoughts:

The Gila doesn't overlap with the Ishtar, it complements the Ishtar. You have the Phantasm which is a shield tanking laser boat, then you have the zealot which is an armour tanking laser boat. They are different beasts, for different fleets. If you want to use medium drones with the Gila you're going to need a bonus to propulsion mods so that it can get into range to deploy those drones, simply because of travel time.

Equivalent to 10 medium drones! Exciting stuff for a cruiser that used to pump out 400+ DPS at range.

Here's how I would make the ship more interesting, Gallente Cruiser bonus of:

  • 20% bonus to medium drone damage and HP
  • 8% bonus to sentry drone damage and tracking
  • 15% bonus to heavy drone MWD speed, flight speed and tracking


And maintain the 125MBps bandwidth. Now you can let the pilot decide how they want to fly the ship. When it turns out that having the equivalent of 10 medium drones just doesn't excite us, we can still fall back on the tried and true formula of sentry drones or heavy drones.

Otherwise it's just going to be a white elephant.


  • 15% bonus to heavy drone MWD speed, flight speed and tracking

    • Think you mean to Medium drone MWD speed.

    Also this change I can support. The medium drones need to have a speed buff to them, Much inline like how the Ishtar has a bonus to Heavy drone speed. This will get the little guys to their target a lot quicker surviving the Aggro shift when you have to recall them. Personally I wish the bandwidth on the Gila would be 25m3 this way it can field a full flight of Lights, I dont think that would be to ground breaking for the ship. Especially for PVE. But if the ship got bonuses to medium velocity and tracking like the Ishtar, I could say the current changes would work.
    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #462 - 2014-04-08 15:31:19 UTC
    Mehashi 'Kho wrote:
    -3 from me I'm afraid.

    I have enjoyed many of the other changes, but these aren't an overall improvement imho.

    That gila with fewer drones is FAR too easy to shut down all it's dps by destroying only two drones.

    The cynabal just became a total waste of space for its money if you cant even fit it like a rupture, it has less PGU and CPU that its tech 1 cheap as shite counterpart. I can't help but think you are taking the pee.

    As for the vigilant
    Quote:
    it was trivial to do 1600 + mwd + at least Ions which is probably a bit generous
    IT SHOULD BE!

    You can fit mwd, 1600 and med guns on a t1 cruiser, at 20 times the price you should be able to properly fit a pirate cruiser too. I'm not talking faction mwd, t2 plates and so on, just a basic combat fit. If you expect people to fly 800mm plate cruisers you are balancing to a poor meta. There are already too few reasons to fly a larger ship than a frigate, don't make cruisers rubbish and add to the problem.


    going by the exequror navy issue, having to fit electron blasters and 800mm plate is CCP's idea of good balance.
    nikon56
    UnSkilleD Inc.
    #463 - 2014-04-08 15:31:23 UTC  |  Edited by: nikon56
    Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
    nikon56 wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:
    No update on changes yet, but I wanted to respond to a few more things.

    On the Vigilant fitting (and similar fitting related comments) - as someone mentioned above, fitting a ship is not meant to be a matter of fitting all the biggest things. There are certainly times when the fitting allocation is too restrictive and we don't want that either, but for ship-fitting gameplay to be good it must include personalization/strategy/tradeoffs. That's what we're trying to accomplish.

    i am really sorry, but then you might consider changing job or position then.

    because while i agree on the first sentence, you are clearly trying to to the opposite of what you are stating.

    and this is not just words, this is not the first rebalance iteration we have, it is ongoing for a year+ and yet, every time, you proved that you where removing possibility for players to personalize the fittings. EVERY SINGLE TIME.
    just look back, it is there.

    if you can't see it, then you are either blind or delusional, whatever, it doesn't matter, you shall stop this.

    i mean, just start up eveHQ, alter the existing ships to the proposed values, and fit it.

    it took me 10 minutes for the gila, to confirm it would be broken OP.

    just see for yourself:
    http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=943587gila.jpg
    http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=155367drone.jpg


    So 788 DPS...and how much does a Thorax pump out?
    Or a Vexor?
    Or a Navy Vexor?
    Or a Vigilant?

    788 DPS for a ship that has to be in your face, because 2520 m / s Hammerheads need to be dropped right on top of someone.

    Let's run a little number here. You land 15 km from your target in a Gila, and open up with those HAM's doing what, 150 DPS?
    You warp disrupt your target, who turns tails and runs at 1500 m / s. Your hammerheads are doing 2500 m/s, and close at 1000 m / s, or about 15 seconds to reach the target. By then, one of them is dead.

    Oh, and you can forget about EVER engaging a frigate.

    And as for this ship as PvE, yeah, the NPC AI would like to have a word with you.

    You and I are coming at this from different angles, but do agree that this is a mess of a ship.

    788 dps and how much HP on a vexor / navy vexor / vigilant?

    regarding the drones, you can shoot them, true, but take a look at their HP, they are ******* frigs now, but with a smaller sig radius.

    currently, no trouble shooting a cruiser with hammerheads from vexor, why should it be a problem with the gila?

    for the PVE, i never said it was good, in fact i think we both agree it will not be viable anymore for pve.

    trust me if you want, but i do play small gank, and for small gank, this will be a beast, clearly

    two of those and a fast lock == ****
    edit: also you don't pvp, nice to see carebears giving pvp advise....
    Weldy Auora
    League of Darkness
    #464 - 2014-04-08 15:37:11 UTC
    Oh pretty Cynabal now you seem pretty damn useless.
    Spugg Galdon
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #465 - 2014-04-08 15:38:18 UTC
    Chris Winter wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:
    I would say that while some roles have shifted (no more Sentry Drones for the Gila being the best example), Pirate Faction ships remain a set of very good generalists. We have an opportunity, because of their flavor and cost, to give them some very interesting capabilities that go a bit outside the box, which is great, but we haven't tried to restrict them to a specific environment at all. The Gila will still have plenty of PVE application and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find examples of lost capability for the rest of these ships resulting from the proposed changes.

    We're all adults here, let's call the Gila changes what they are. A heavy nerf for PvE. Limiting to kinetic/thermal, forcing into medium drones completely changes the role of the ship. It's no longer a sniper, it's now a (very limited and delayed-application) brawler for only certain types of rats.

    For people who like using drones, and prefer shields to armor, you have completely eliminated an entire playstyle as being valid, with no real explanation why the changes are necessary. "Oh, there are several other sentry boats to use!" Nope. No other shield ones.



    Not sure if I've ever personally came accross an armour tanked Ishtar yet. They always seem to be shield gank fitted.

    The Domi also works well as a shield tanker.

    Just because these ships tend to favour armour (Does the Ishtar really favour armour?) doesn't mean you have to armour tank them.

    Hell, I aromur tank a Cyclone sometimes for giggles and it works!

    Get out of the box you seem to be stuck in and try something else.

    Also, I use medium drones for PvE ALL THE TIME and I rarely lose any. This is probably because I know how to manipulate the NPC AI to primary me instead of my drones. It takes some time, effort and experimentation but I'm sure you could figure it out eventually and learn how to overcome the obstacles in front of you instead of saying "I don't like change because it's scary and I can't adapt".
    H
    T
    F
    U
    Koizumi Atsuchi
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #466 - 2014-04-08 15:45:00 UTC
    Spugg Galdon wrote:
    Chris Winter wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:
    I would say that while some roles have shifted (no more Sentry Drones for the Gila being the best example), Pirate Faction ships remain a set of very good generalists. We have an opportunity, because of their flavor and cost, to give them some very interesting capabilities that go a bit outside the box, which is great, but we haven't tried to restrict them to a specific environment at all. The Gila will still have plenty of PVE application and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find examples of lost capability for the rest of these ships resulting from the proposed changes.

    We're all adults here, let's call the Gila changes what they are. A heavy nerf for PvE. Limiting to kinetic/thermal, forcing into medium drones completely changes the role of the ship. It's no longer a sniper, it's now a (very limited and delayed-application) brawler for only certain types of rats.

    For people who like using drones, and prefer shields to armor, you have completely eliminated an entire playstyle as being valid, with no real explanation why the changes are necessary. "Oh, there are several other sentry boats to use!" Nope. No other shield ones.



    Not sure if I've ever personally came accross an armour tanked Ishtar yet. They always seem to be shield gank fitted.

    The Domi also works well as a shield tanker.

    Just because these ships tend to favour armour (Does the Ishtar really favour armour?) doesn't mean you have to armour tank them.

    Hell, I aromur tank a Cyclone sometimes for giggles and it works!

    Get out of the box you seem to be stuck in and try something else.

    Also, I use medium drones for PvE ALL THE TIME and I rarely lose any. This is probably because I know how to manipulate the NPC AI to primary me instead of my drones. It takes some time, effort and experimentation but I'm sure you could figure it out eventually and learn how to overcome the obstacles in front of you instead of saying "I don't like change because it's scary and I can't adapt".
    H
    T
    F
    U


    Its not about the change were talking here, its about useless change. Things youre saying are cool, think outside the box, always be innovative, thats fine, but what CCP is doing here is restricting this notion instead of rewarding it. We could have more from these faction ships then CCP are trying to propose, thats what we are molding with this discussion. Don't think that change is good because its a change.
    Michael Harari
    Genos Occidere
    HYDRA RELOADED
    #467 - 2014-04-08 15:46:58 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    No update on changes yet, but I wanted to respond to a few more things.

    On the Vigilant fitting (and similar fitting related comments) - as someone mentioned above, fitting a ship is not meant to be a matter of fitting all the biggest things. There are certainly times when the fitting allocation is too restrictive and we don't want that either, but for ship-fitting gameplay to be good it must include personalization/strategy/tradeoffs. That's what we're trying to accomplish.


    I agree completely (see, it happens!)

    Fitting restrictions is what leads to interesting fitting. You then have to make choices about what to fit
    Spugg Galdon
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #468 - 2014-04-08 15:47:50 UTC
    The only issue, and it's a minute one at that, for the Gila (all drone boats for that matter) is that there are no small and medium sentry drones.

    If these existed I believe many, many issues could be solved. Including the perceived power of the Ishtar.
    Callic Veratar
    #469 - 2014-04-08 15:49:51 UTC
    I just caught up on most of the thread, and have been thinking about a unique bonus for the Angel ships.

    So far, faster warp speeds seem to be the only suggested option, which is pretty nice, but not necessarily the best. Going towards the idea of them being the best kiting ships, there are a few ideas I've had:

    +1-2 Warp Core Strength - Makes it a easier to slip away
    +30-70% Web Resistance - Potentially very powerful and makes them that much harder to catch
    +10-50% Warp Speed - Gets them to the grid faster

    With base speed and agility already quite high, it's not likely worth adding to them, as at some point it just gets ridiculous.

    The other idea I had was to go with Artillery focused gunships. The best option here, I think, would be to increase the rate of fire and tracking substantially, with less turret hard points and no damage bonus. The idea would be to set the ship up so that using autocannons would be a major issue in terms of sheer ammo management and artillery would fire fast and often. (Faster than a Loki with a Projectile Scoping Array, which can burn through 10k rounds in a couple minutes).
    Spugg Galdon
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #470 - 2014-04-08 15:54:29 UTC
    Callic Veratar wrote:
    I just caught up on most of the thread, and have been thinking about a unique bonus for the Angel ships.

    So far, faster warp speeds seem to be the only suggested option, which is pretty nice, but not necessarily the best. Going towards the idea of them being the best kiting ships, there are a few ideas I've had:

    +1-2 Warp Core Strength - Makes it a easier to slip away
    +30-70% Web Resistance - Potentially very powerful and makes them that much harder to catch
    +10-50% Warp Speed - Gets them to the grid faster

    With base speed and agility already quite high, it's not likely worth adding to them, as at some point it just gets ridiculous.

    The other idea I had was to go with Artillery focused gunships. The best option here, I think, would be to increase the rate of fire and tracking substantially, with less turret hard points and no damage bonus. The idea would be to set the ship up so that using autocannons would be a major issue in terms of sheer ammo management and artillery would fire fast and often. (Faster than a Loki with a Projectile Scoping Array, which can burn through 10k rounds in a couple minutes).



    Personally, I don't see why warp speed should be a role bonus or hull bonus when it can easily just be built into the hull.

    Web resistance is an interesting idea though......
    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #471 - 2014-04-08 15:58:46 UTC
    Spugg Galdon wrote:
    Callic Veratar wrote:
    I just caught up on most of the thread, and have been thinking about a unique bonus for the Angel ships.

    So far, faster warp speeds seem to be the only suggested option, which is pretty nice, but not necessarily the best. Going towards the idea of them being the best kiting ships, there are a few ideas I've had:

    +1-2 Warp Core Strength - Makes it a easier to slip away
    +30-70% Web Resistance - Potentially very powerful and makes them that much harder to catch
    +10-50% Warp Speed - Gets them to the grid faster

    With base speed and agility already quite high, it's not likely worth adding to them, as at some point it just gets ridiculous.

    The other idea I had was to go with Artillery focused gunships. The best option here, I think, would be to increase the rate of fire and tracking substantially, with less turret hard points and no damage bonus. The idea would be to set the ship up so that using autocannons would be a major issue in terms of sheer ammo management and artillery would fire fast and often. (Faster than a Loki with a Projectile Scoping Array, which can burn through 10k rounds in a couple minutes).



    Personally, I don't see why warp speed should be a role bonus or hull bonus when it can easily just be built into the hull.

    Web resistance is an interesting idea though......


    web resistance would make it a natural counter too the blood Raider ships/minnie recons/EAF/Loki

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
    MeBiatch
    GRR GOONS
    #472 - 2014-04-08 16:02:39 UTC
    Spugg Galdon wrote:


    Personally, I don't see why warp speed should be a role bonus or hull bonus when it can easily just be built into the hull.

    Web resistance is an interesting idea though......



    I still think a neat role would be scram resistance.

    back in the day there was no way to turn off a micro warp drive then they changed the game and made it so Scrams turn off the MWD.

    Either make the role bonus: MWD imune to Scram effect or have a reduced speed effect like Sram reduces MWD speed by 50%.

    that would work really well with the niche that angel ships fulfill.

    There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

    Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #473 - 2014-04-08 16:06:30 UTC
    Spugg Galdon wrote:
    The only issue, and it's a minute one at that, for the Gila (all drone boats for that matter) is that there are no small and medium sentry drones.

    If these existed I believe many, many issues could be solved. Including the perceived power of the Ishtar.


    it would be nice to have sized LR versions of the SR drones.

    maybe ishkur could be focused on small sentry drones so it would live up to its name as the mini ishtar
    ishtar could use medium sentries

    ishkur - small sentries - 30% range and dps of current sentries - tracking of small LR guns
    ishtar - medium sentries - 80% range and dps of current sentries - tracking of medium LR guns

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
    CCP Rise
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #474 - 2014-04-08 16:09:25 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
    Alright, you guys are getting major real time updates here, I might as well start live tweeting our meetings!

    With regards to the Cynabal - we are not going to try and add some kind of web/scram immunity/resistance. While this kind of bonus would certainly be fun, it would force us to make severe changes to all three Angel ships to compensate for the increased power, which would surely feel terrible for all the people enjoying them now. This would be especially true for PVE players who couldn't make use of the new bonus but would be stuck with a much worse ship than they are used to.

    The option we do feel good about is warp speed. It supports the hit and run playstyle that Angels are already best at without forcing us to make changes to the combat performance. So, we are looking at roughly a 50% increase in warp speed and acceleration for all three, putting the Cynabal at warp speed multiplier of 4.5, which is basically destroyer speed. I've also updated the OP with a new powergrid number.

    We've also adjusted powergrid on the Ashimmu to make some more room for those PG heavy energy war mods.

    We spent time playing with the Vigilant in a lot of different configurations and feel completely confident in the current fitting numbers.

    Hope this makes you Angel fans more excited

    @ccp_rise
    Cannibal Kane
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #475 - 2014-04-08 16:10:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
    CCP Rise wrote:
    No update on changes yet, but I wanted to respond to a few more things.

    On the Vigilant fitting (and similar fitting related comments) - as someone mentioned above, fitting a ship is not meant to be a matter of fitting all the biggest things. There are certainly times when the fitting allocation is too restrictive and we don't want that either, but for ship-fitting gameplay to be good it must include personalization/strategy/tradeoffs. That's what we're trying to accomplish.

    There's some sentiment (as there often seems to be) that these changes somehow pigeonhole ships into roles that we have explicitly defined rather than allowing for more open or generalized ships. I would say that while some roles have shifted (no more Sentry Drones for the Gila being the best example), Pirate Faction ships remain a set of very good generalists. We have an opportunity, because of their flavor and cost, to give them some very interesting capabilities that go a bit outside the box, which is great, but we haven't tried to restrict them to a specific environment at all. The Gila will still have plenty of PVE application and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find examples of lost capability for the rest of these ships resulting from the proposed changes.

    Sorry for the typos that were in the OP, hopefully I've removed the last of them now but if you see more let me know.



    With regards to the VIGI's -150 PG.

    Well then what is the bloody point? Might as well sell mine and just fly the Deimos since it will be cheaper and less blingy because you have itch that does not need scratching.

    Really? Care to share the fit you are using with the VIGI. I want to see that? I never cared much for eft and such.

    "Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
    Michael Harari
    Genos Occidere
    HYDRA RELOADED
    #476 - 2014-04-08 16:11:56 UTC
    Cannibal Kane wrote:


    Really? Care to share the fit you are using with the VIGI. I want to see that?


    The deimos doesnt have the broken as hell 90% web. A single vigilant can web a target down to a small fraction of what every deimos in the game combined could web a target to.
    Cannibal Kane
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #477 - 2014-04-08 16:13:06 UTC
    Michael Harari wrote:
    Cannibal Kane wrote:


    Really? Care to share the fit you are using with the VIGI. I want to see that?


    The deimos doesnt have the broken as hell 90% web. A single vigilant can web a target down to a small fraction of what every deimos in the game combined could web a target to.


    I would much prefer them to remove the web bonus then take 150PG away.

    "Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
    Michael Harari
    Genos Occidere
    HYDRA RELOADED
    #478 - 2014-04-08 16:13:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
    Cannibal Kane wrote:
    Michael Harari wrote:
    Cannibal Kane wrote:


    Really? Care to share the fit you are using with the VIGI. I want to see that?


    The deimos doesnt have the broken as hell 90% web. A single vigilant can web a target down to a small fraction of what every deimos in the game combined could web a target to.


    I would much prefer them to remove the web bonus then take 150PG away.


    I dont disagree.

    80% web, -50pg and reducing the speed boost would be very reasonable.
    Sniper Smith
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #479 - 2014-04-08 16:17:37 UTC
    Hooti Yasunaga wrote:
    Hey CCP RIse

    Would it be possible to get a response to the many comments calling for a nerf of 90% webs in this thread which you appear to have so far over looked?

    Thanks

    Read the forums more. It's been said, flat out, the 90% webs are NOT leaving the Serpentis Line. The goal of the pirate lines is to make all pirate faction ships AS good as the Serpentis line, not nerf them into the ground because you don't know how to keep range.
    Michael Harari
    Genos Occidere
    HYDRA RELOADED
    #480 - 2014-04-08 16:21:23 UTC
    Sniper Smith wrote:
    Hooti Yasunaga wrote:
    Hey CCP RIse

    Would it be possible to get a response to the many comments calling for a nerf of 90% webs in this thread which you appear to have so far over looked?

    Thanks

    Read the forums more. It's been said, flat out, the 90% webs are NOT leaving the Serpentis Line. The goal of the pirate lines is to make all pirate faction ships AS good as the Serpentis line, not nerf them into the ground because you don't know how to keep range.



    Quick name 5 ships appreciably faster than a daredevil