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Dev Blog: Giving Drones an Assist

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Icylce
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#681 - 2014-04-03 19:02:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Icylce wrote:
How can u claim no time was lost.
Simple: because the time you spent went to giving you fairly significant advantages that you otherwise wouldn't have and because what you gain from this switch-over is sufficient recompense.

Yes, you could have skipped over, say, training CDO and now get those bonuses anyway, but guess what? Your drones would then have been 20% worse for upwards of a decade. That's a lot of damage output to miss out on over a very long period of time — all so you could “save” 512k SP. The skills were worth training for the advantages they brought. The time was therefore not lost. You also get to keep the bonuses you bought with your training, so again, the time was not lost. At no point do you end up with less than you have; in almost all cases, you end up with more. Loss never enters the picture.

The only way for the time to be lost is if you trained the skills and never used them or if the bonuses were being removed. If it's the former, then that's your own fault; if it's the latter then… who cares, because it's not what's happening. The only downside with the chosen solution is that some poor soul might end up with a higher clone grade, and that's it.


Time is not measured in usefulness or opportunity. If one day 2 chars with 100 days worth od training wake up with differend days worth of training then the time was lost.

Erasmus Phoenix wrote:

So you'd rather have a situation where someone loses the ability to use T2 or even T1 drones that they were perfectly capable of deploying before the patch?

Yes, this is still happening with the sentries, but it's a smaller difference in training and you also wouldn't ever lose the ability to use T1.


Well, then make the scout drone operation the required t2 skills as it was and change the new skills to dmg effect only. Problem solved.
Mexicantis
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#682 - 2014-04-03 19:04:35 UTC
Instead of using a straight line to balance the combat drones why not use a diamond shape to really differentiate them. Treat them like you would a rebalanced ship and split them off into specialisations. For example, keep Gallente as the damage dealers regardless of resists- not very good range, Caldari have great range - not very good dps, keep Minnies nice and fast but replace their damage with a good web bonus or a tracking disruptor and Ammar can be really good at sucking out cap or make them the anti-drone drones etc. Get rid of all the other ewar drones, or make those even more specialised, I don’t recall ever seeing any one ever use them except for the ecm, but everybody hates those anyway so no great loss.

Give me a reason to pick and choose between different roles as I do now with the newly rebalanced ships. As the changes stand there is still no reason for me to want to use the "slightly" slower drone or the one that does "slightly" less damage. Like Tippia said Eve is a world of extremes, I’ll always want to use the thing that does the most of something, everything in between is just pointless riffraff.

Try out something bold and brave, if it doesn’t work you can always change it again or push that revert or rollback button in Perforce or whatever backup system you guys use.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#683 - 2014-04-03 19:06:45 UTC
I wouldn't exactly be opposed to that, but this does bring light/medium drones in line with the way the other sizes work. It does create weirdness with ewar drones, which Fozzie hasn't said anything about yet.

On the other hand, I entirely disagree with what you're saying about losing time. You have had the benefit of the skills you trained.
Varesk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#684 - 2014-04-03 19:07:00 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Removing ability from players is a far worse solution than giving some people 512k SP and others “only” 256k. No matter what, you come out ahead. No matter what, the skills you trained weren't wasted.

Since you don't lose any abilities, there's really nothing to reimburse.


This. Eventually you will get to a point where you say

1) what do I train now?

or

2) sweet, I have that trained already.

either way you are not wasting time or skill points.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#685 - 2014-04-03 19:19:34 UTC
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Icylce wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Is there a single player who actively uses T2 sentries and doesn't have the racial drone skills?

I know quite few


Why would you put the time in to use T2 sentries without being able to use at least T2 smalls?


For what purpose would you want to use t2 smalls outside pvp if you want to use sentrys?
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#686 - 2014-04-03 19:23:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
oh boo hoo i spent a week training combat drone operation 5 for that extra 5% on my warriors and now other people won't have to. I think we'll all live.

And reducing the spec requirement to 1 for all drones is a good solution. If you lose the ability to launch your curators this summer then I have no sympathy for you. Go buy a damn skillbook and take 1 hour out of your busy training schedule. You have months to do so.

Also lol at dinsdale crying about how this is so terrible when its by and large a buff to drones by just about every conceivable metric.

Barton Breau wrote:

For what purpose would you want to use t2 smalls outside pvp if you want to use sentrys?

Please tell me this is rhetorical/sarcastic.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#687 - 2014-04-03 19:23:57 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Icylce wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Is there a single player who actively uses T2 sentries and doesn't have the racial drone skills?

I know quite few


Why would you put the time in to use T2 sentries without being able to use at least T2 smalls?


For what purpose would you want to use t2 smalls outside pvp if you want to use sentrys?
Close orbiting frigate NPC's?
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#688 - 2014-04-03 19:25:57 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Icylce wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Is there a single player who actively uses T2 sentries and doesn't have the racial drone skills?

I know quite few


Why would you put the time in to use T2 sentries without being able to use at least T2 smalls?


For what purpose would you want to use t2 smalls outside pvp if you want to use sentrys?
Close orbiting frigate NPC's?


Is it 2011 or something?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#689 - 2014-04-03 19:27:25 UTC
Batelle wrote:
oh boo hoo i spent a week training combat drone operation 5 for that extra 5% on my warriors and now other people won't have to. I think we'll all live.

And reducing the spec requirement to 1 for all drones is a good solution. If you lose the ability to launch your curators this summer then I have no sympathy for you. Go buy a damn skillbook and take 1 hour out of your busy training schedule. You have months to do so.

Also lol at dinsdale crying about how this is so terrible when its by and large a buff to drones by just about every conceivable metric.
Confused, how is the comparative benefit of combat drone op V going away? Isn't it actually becomeing more valuable to do it now prior to the split?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#690 - 2014-04-03 19:28:35 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Is it 2011 or something?
Do you MJD for every close orbiting ship? My hobs can finish a couple close orbiters in the time it takes an MJD to spool up.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#691 - 2014-04-03 19:32:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Icylce wrote:
Time is not measured in usefulness or opportunity. If one day 2 chars with 100 days worth od training wake up with differend days worth of training then the time was lost.
No. Unless you lost time — by training stuff that was useless, is rendered useless, or which you never used — you didn't lose time… it's this tautology somehow manage to miss. If other people get “jumped ahead”, you did not lose time.

It's not a zero-sum game. Their gain is not your loss.

If you think that the time was lost, why did you train the skills to begin with? Any answer that amounts to “oh, but at the time…” means you didn't lose time — you got exactly what you trained for. Unless what you trained for is no longer in the game, you did not lose it.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#692 - 2014-04-03 19:32:52 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Batelle wrote:
oh boo hoo i spent a week training combat drone operation 5 for that extra 5% on my warriors and now other people won't have to. I think we'll all live.

And reducing the spec requirement to 1 for all drones is a good solution. If you lose the ability to launch your curators this summer then I have no sympathy for you. Go buy a damn skillbook and take 1 hour out of your busy training schedule. You have months to do so.

Also lol at dinsdale crying about how this is so terrible when its by and large a buff to drones by just about every conceivable metric.
Confused, how is the comparative benefit of combat drone op V going away? Isn't it actually becomeing more valuable to do it now prior to the split?


You can avoid training it entirely if you have Scout Drone Operations trained to V
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#693 - 2014-04-03 19:35:25 UTC
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Batelle wrote:
oh boo hoo i spent a week training combat drone operation 5 for that extra 5% on my warriors and now other people won't have to. I think we'll all live.

And reducing the spec requirement to 1 for all drones is a good solution. If you lose the ability to launch your curators this summer then I have no sympathy for you. Go buy a damn skillbook and take 1 hour out of your busy training schedule. You have months to do so.

Also lol at dinsdale crying about how this is so terrible when its by and large a buff to drones by just about every conceivable metric.
Confused, how is the comparative benefit of combat drone op V going away? Isn't it actually becomeing more valuable to do it now prior to the split?


You can avoid training it entirely if you have Scout Drone Operations trained to V

Maybe I'm missing something, perhaps in a later post by a dev, but I'm not seeing how the changes cause Scout Drone Op to obsolete Combat Drone Op. Rereading now.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#694 - 2014-04-03 19:37:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, perhaps in a later post by a dev, but I'm not seeing how the changes cause Scout Drone Op to obsolete Combat Drone Op. Rereading now.

It's not being obsoleted, as such. It's being flat out removed, and the replacement process is such that you get the same replacement skills if you have SDO V as if you had CDO V.

The highest of the two skills determines what level your newfangled Light Drone and Medium Drone skills will be at.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#695 - 2014-04-03 19:37:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Barton Breau wrote:
Is it 2011 or something?


Using a MJD dominix for hisec level 4's is not the only situation in which one would use sentries for pve.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#696 - 2014-04-03 19:40:33 UTC
Slightly unrelated but in the same lines. Could we get kill mails for fighters and fighter bombers with this change please.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#697 - 2014-04-03 19:40:55 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkKnife
So why do all the fighters do the same damage but the non-capital drones don't?

If fighters are balanced around speed/tracking/damage type, and not damage as well, why then are the scout/medium/heavy drones done the same way?
Icylce
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#698 - 2014-04-03 19:41:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Icylce wrote:
Time is not measured in usefulness or opportunity. If one day 2 chars with 100 days worth od training wake up with differend days worth of training then the time was lost.
No. Unless you lost time — by training stuff that was useless, is rendered useless, or which you never used — you didn't lose time… it's this tautology somehow manage to miss. If other people get “jumped ahead”, you did not lose time.

It's not a zero-sum game. Their gain is not your loss.

If you think that the time was lost, why did you train the skills to begin with? Any answer that amounts to “oh, but at the time…” means you didn't lose time — you got exactly what you trained for. Unless what you trained for is no longer in the game, you did not lose it.


Yes I got exactly what I trained for, but others get more than what they trained for in same timeframe. This happens when u use other than +5 implants and wrong remaps or forget to train the skill. Which is completely acceptable because it is your decision. But proposed change is not your decision and U are losing time even tough other sollution is possbile.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#699 - 2014-04-03 19:42:29 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, perhaps in a later post by a dev, but I'm not seeing how the changes cause Scout Drone Op to obsolete Combat Drone Op. Rereading now.

It's not being obsoleted, as such. It's being flat out removed, and the replacement process is such that you get the same replacement skills if you have SDO V as if you had CDO V.

The highest of the two skills determines what level your newfangled Light Drone and Medium Drone skills will be at.

And now I'm even more lost.

From what I understood

SDO is being renamed to Drone Avionics with no functionality change
CDO is being split into 2 skills, 1 for lights, 1 for mediums. Much like the BC/Destroyer skill changes it's clearly beneficial to train this up prior to the changes should you anticipate ever using these types of drones.

What I don't see is how the 2 skills intersect. I apologize if I missed a later clarification, but I don't see how CDO became less valuable in itself or how SDO in any way provides the same benefit after the changes as CDO does now. If you can break it down I'd appreciate it.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#700 - 2014-04-03 19:48:46 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, perhaps in a later post by a dev, but I'm not seeing how the changes cause Scout Drone Op to obsolete Combat Drone Op. Rereading now.

It's not being obsoleted, as such. It's being flat out removed, and the replacement process is such that you get the same replacement skills if you have SDO V as if you had CDO V.

The highest of the two skills determines what level your newfangled Light Drone and Medium Drone skills will be at.

And now I'm even more lost.

From what I understood

SDO is being renamed to Drone Avionics with no functionality change
CDO is being split into 2 skills, 1 for lights, 1 for mediums. Much like the BC/Destroyer skill changes it's clearly beneficial to train this up prior to the changes should you anticipate ever using these types of drones.

What I don't see is how the 2 skills intersect. I apologize if I missed a later clarification, but I don't see how CDO became less valuable in itself or how SDO in any way provides the same benefit after the changes as CDO does now. If you can break it down I'd appreciate it.


Fozzie clarified that you will be getting the two new skills at the level of whichever is higher out of SDO or CDO, since SDO currently unlocks the T1 and T2 light/medium drones, and therefore a situation could have occurred where someone was able to use T2 (or even T1) drones BEFORE the patch, but not after, since the requirement was being moved to an unrelated skill.

Hence, if you have CDO to, say, III, and SDO to V, then you don't need to train CDO any more in order to get both new skills at V.

I'm not sure what is happening to Drone Link Augmentors, which are currently unlocked by CDO, my guess would be they're getting moved to Drone Avionics.

I should also point out there most certainly IS a functionality change with Drone Avionics because SDO unlocks drones and Drone Avionics will not, the original blog post is really, really bad in some ways.