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Endovior
PFU Consortium
#2221 - 2014-03-26 07:41:41 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Lots of people in this thread would be defending the rapist and blaming the woman that dressed sexy and was having a little fun at the bar.

Sad.


That seems unlikely. The two situations are not at all equivalent. Remember that Erotica1 broke no laws and was nothing but polite, while Sohkar was horrifically rude, and actually did break the law (death threats). Essentially, you're equating one person defeating another in a video game (it's EVE; scams are PvP) to actual real-life ****. That's not cool.
Foxstar Damaskeenus
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#2222 - 2014-03-26 07:42:20 UTC
ImYourMom wrote:
We have to also understand that this isnt just Erotica1, lots of people are doing this. Goonswarm are the worse for it, yet nothing was done or said about it, why?

ccp also have to take some blame for this as they openly promote this type of behaviour through gameplay



I disagree, when I was about a week in to the game I bought a ship from contract, all the fittings were there, not the ship :) And that was the end of it right there.

I don't think any decent person would have let it go this far. If I was Erotica 1 I would have pulled the teamspeak plug. Instead he kept going, kept trying to get the person angrier, let his wife get involved INSTEAD OF simply kicking the guy from comms and moving on.

He went after this guy to do harm.

"[this thread] is a cesspit of trolling and flaming" ISD Buldath

Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#2223 - 2014-03-26 07:42:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
arabella blood wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
arabella blood wrote:
If there was such a clear line, edge cases would not exist. Its a problem, a IRL problem as well - thats why we have judges and not only "sentence delivereres".
It is not a simple thing at all. And there are many doctorines, and many ideas revolving the issue.

Defense: He could have switched off his computer at any point.
Judge: Case dismissed.


Clearly you should visit court rooms that are not on TV :)

Lets try that tactic again.

Defense: she could have said no the entire time and leave.
Judge: Case dismissed.


Not even close to the same thing. **** is non consensual. This guy consented to participating, and even being recorded. It would absolutely be dismissed. You closet nutcases with your **** analogies, you sound like this:

"Hey, what's the best way I can possibly blow everything out of proportion and make everything look worse than it is?"

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#2224 - 2014-03-26 07:42:56 UTC
This is about CCP allowing psychopaths to use their game as a tool to lure victims.

No more. No less.

I don't understand the controversy. The answer seems plain enough. Just because he manages to technically stay within the rules doesn't make it okay. It just means that like most psychos, he's clever. Hardly worth the hero worship I'm seeing in here.

I'd like to think that most of those supporting Erotica1 are just trolling or taking the ****, but I don't think that's the case. I think that these people actually think that taking what's encouraged in game and moving it out into the real world is perfectly acceptable behavior. And I am disheartened to see it.

Mr Epeen Cool
Mikey Aivo
Original Sinners
Northern Coalition.
#2225 - 2014-03-26 07:43:50 UTC
Pytria Le'Danness wrote:
Here in Germany there have been several cases of people that have been harrassed electronically, dubbed "cybermobbing" by the media. Most of them are teens at school AFAIK, but the principle is the same. The modus operandi has always been the same: get some hold over the victim, usually an embarrassing photo or text that the victim sent over willingly. Then use that hold to blackmail the victim into doing what you want.

In my eyes there is very little difference between getting hold of a bunch of pixels in the form of a picture or in the form of assets in a game. They are something the victim cares about, and the victim is being blackmailed to perform actions that he does not want to do.

Here in Germany the victim could probably sue for a variety of things and would be taken VERY seriously. And yes, the police WOULD get involved (http://www.polizei-beratung.de/presse/609-cybermobbing-ist-kein-kinderspiel.html, text in german).

If CCP condones this kind of behaviour I do not want to be a part of this community.

is it blackmail when u willing enter a room and wiling do things and willing give away your stuff? no thats just a case of stupid
arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#2226 - 2014-03-26 07:44:32 UTC
Endovior wrote:
arabella blood wrote:
Endovior wrote:
Disagree completely. Something which is 'almost illegal' is still 'not actually illegal', and the whole point of inquiring into the specific rules is to draw a line between what is acceptable and what is not. If that line is in the wrong place, it can be moved... but it's not fair to say 'the line is drawn here... and don't go anywhere near it!'



If there was such a clear line, edge cases would not exist. Its a problem, a IRL problem as well - thats why we have judges and not only "sentence delivereres".
It is not a simple thing at all. And there are many doctorines, and many ideas revolving the issue.


I'm not saying that grey areas don't exist. I'm saying that that's what the warning and line-drawing is for. Part of the point is that, if/when the rules change, you are right to clarify the rules, and get a specific indication that any potentially borderline thing you're doing is okay... and then you do that. Otherwise, you have a situation where the 'law' is actually nebulous and murky, and you can be randomly punished for anything in particular at the whim of the judge. That's the importance of knowing what is and is not illegal, and why ambiguous laws are bad.



This is very true. And as i said, no clear solution to it yet :(
Thats why imo dicretion is needed.

Btw, CCP is anyway entiteled to 'giving judgment' without any law or anything backing them up. Just be advised.

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#2227 - 2014-03-26 07:44:33 UTC
Let me be very clear, because apparently the critics seem to want to ignore the facts and keep going back to their talking points. It took a Widot on something like page 16 to point this out, I acknowledged it, and yet these guys just keep on ignoring it....

If the bonus round ended when the lucky clients handed everything over, then it would be a SCAM. The bonus round is designed to not be a scam. It has winners for those that stick it out. Not thousands of winners because it is HARD to complete. I really hate using caps/bolding, but it seems to be the only way to communicate with some people.

The reason the bonus round continues is because there are multiple challenges to complete. Full faith is required. Not 3/4 faith, not 1/2 faith, not negotiations in my own damn bonus round. It is FUN for those that don't get all bent out of shape.

We have very few Sohkar's. The vast majority leave immediately or leave halfway through for a variety of reasons, but in most bonus rounds the clients are completely polite. Because this is a video game and it's internet space pixels. Many escrow agents are prior clients.

Yeah, I hesitated with the whole speech impediment thing (some of my EVE friends have similar issues) but you know what? We carried on through that and it was minor- he seemed to be having fun with the dictionary thing. Sohkar started getting mad early on and he was brought back to a calm state.

At some point, he just loses it. This was not preplanned on my part. Yes, I had to mute myself on multiple ocassions as did many escrow agents. What he has to say was awful. Did I report him? Of course not. It's a damn game, and I'm sure he got over it, no thanks to all this extra crap today. If it wasn't for this shitstorm, I could probably even enjoy internet spaceships with him. No, I don't give refunds.

There have been a small handful of bonus rounds that I have paused during the rounds to reflect upon as I witness an inkling of mob mentality. In those, and I hate to say this out of character, I was acting on alts to give them a safety cushion and soften their blow. There was one guy who just burst into tears because of some precious ship a friend gave to him. You know what? He was offered to keep that ship, but I stayed in character in the bonus round. We had to find a way to maintain the rules of the bonus round on the surface but ensure the guy didn't do anything stupid over pixels. I hate to even say that because it ruins the branding. You can't predict that ****. It happens in less than 1% of cases. Do we not do bonus rounds because you accidentally trigger something? Do you not do them because someone somewhere MIGHT do something unstable?

If you say yes to those questions, replace it with other words such as ganking, gate camps, or anything outside of game that is accepted as fair play but could still trigger such things.

There have been literally hundreds of bonus rounds and only a tiny number of "crazy" ones like this.

While we are at it, let's address some other things, lest I get punished over rumors.

I was not kicked out of Widot. I left to save Widot any hassle. I wasn't supposed to leave, in fact, I was told to stay around by various directors in GSF. In fact, let's talk about that.

in the HR thread, some guy got mad and I didn't even know who this DJ fellow was (whoops.) Here is the api for all those who claim it doesn't exist:

http://ridetheclown.com/eveapi/audit.php?chid=90160865&usid=2715279&apik=OfqubFtgcgUbfIOB11bpxarIRHBmIB3Uj9zGMrUjS3lwGVXukgj5SdOXD4jCvtWn

Anyway, let's not talk about that- I just posted that to address some trolling.

So this DJ guy gets raging mad at me. Others can tell you who he is, most will get the reference. Anyway, I had the misfortune of having gotten on his radar and nothing I could say would calm this guy down. I was told to drop my CSM run and do a number of things otherwise they would expose some real life dirt they found on me, since I had released my NAME to address the people thinking the CSM thing was a troll. I had no idea people would stoop this low over internet spaceships. (oops again.)

If I get one more iota of harassment of this I will release the blackmailers eve-online name. Most people can guess.

Like a moron, I caved in to every single demand. I posted what they wanted me to say on goon forums. I sent silly apology mails, etc etc. You could say it was a taste of my own medicine notched up a bit. I felt this was the prudent approach, yet the onslaught against me continued and escalated, which led me to believe I made the wrong choice. I should have made a stand then. Instead, I took a breather from the limelight.

Guys, there were never any "mayo" pics. There were no underage girls, etc. In the campaign TS event I held, a BU guy's adult girlfriend linked racy pics with "ERO4CSM" written on her body. I did NOT ask for these. I do NOT have these saved. In her words, she "wanted to give nerds something to fap to." Look, I'm not complaining at all... I'm sure many nerds did "fap" to them to be quite honest. There were some funny pics with the clients' FACES OBSCURED with a sign. We said, look, if you want to link a pic that would be funny, but for God's sake, don't make it personally identifiable. Hold up a funny sign over your face. One of those is the Yodaknows pic on minerbumping. Like I said, only a handful, and they are extremely tame. Yeah one guy did write "Erotica 1" in peanut butter on his chest. Funny, gross, and totally not identifiable to the person.

The "dirt" isn't even all that big of a deal, just downright embarrassing. Some years ago, I sold some resale rights stuff online to make some cash. Made some money, cool. Anyway, a guy complains. I look into it, see he's right, apologize and refund his money. I spoke to a rights owner and straightened things out.

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.

Endovior
PFU Consortium
#2228 - 2014-03-26 07:45:05 UTC
Pytria Le'Danness wrote:
Here in Germany there have been several cases of people that have been harrassed electronically, dubbed "cybermobbing" by the media. Most of them are teens at school AFAIK, but the principle is the same. The modus operandi has always been the same: get some hold over the victim, usually an embarrassing photo or text that the victim sent over willingly. Then use that hold to blackmail the victim into doing what you want.

In my eyes there is very little difference between getting hold of a bunch of pixels in the form of a picture or in the form of assets in a game. They are something the victim cares about, and the victim is being blackmailed to perform actions that he does not want to do.

Here in Germany the victim could probably sue for a variety of things and would be taken VERY seriously. And yes, the police WOULD get involved (http://www.polizei-beratung.de/presse/609-cybermobbing-ist-kein-kinderspiel.html, text in german).

If CCP condones this kind of behaviour I do not want to be a part of this community.


Okay, then. Admitting that I don't speak German, and don't have all the specifics, that sounds to me like the kind of poorly-written, ambiguous law that undermines the structure of the legal system. Glad I don't live in Germany, I guess?
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#2229 - 2014-03-26 07:45:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Erotica 1
But he posts info about me online anyway. Whatever. Some people just can't be reasonable, as we see everyday in this game of ours.

I still like Goons. That's no secret. I'm not going to hate a huge alliance/coalition because of a handful of guys made some trumped up charges against me and continue to troll made up things about me on an almost daily basis in the forums.

How many times have you seen a reference to "mayo," under aged pics, and other "creepy" things that never happened? You see it all the time. This "creepy" buzzword is straight out of the rightwing political playbook. Hey, say something enough and people are bound to believe you.

It's no secret that I'm a huge James 315 and Mittens fan (totally different people.) None of this silly bullshit is going to change that.

On my EVE bucket list is to make "Massively" headlines. Oops, I meant to do it for something else. Oh well. LOL

Let's talk about the CSM running. A lot of my EVE friends want me to drop out for fear of my personal safety. They are probably right. I don't really fear any of these lunatics threatening or wishing crazy ways to die upon me. But you know what, I do have concerns for my wife and son. This is a video game people. Though I gotta say, if I had to choose, it would be much better than dying of lung cancer, which is quite likely eventually. If some loon killed me at Fanfest over fake spaceship money, especially at the encouragement of all these "white knight carebear moral highground people," then I think some interesting things would happen for the better broadly speaking. Just please, I only ask CCP keep my bounty intact and pass my play money and assets over to James 315 for the improvement of highsec.

I will be dropping out of the running, but not for any of those reasons. I totally derped and forgot that my passport is long expired. There is no way I can get a scanned copy in by the deadline now. Oh well, there's always next year. Believe it or not, if we can get past all this silly nonsense, I think most people would be surprised at how I would actually represent them pretty well. I mean, I'm totally cool with a copy of my driver's license and some agreement that if I win I just sit over here in the 'States and don't get a free trip to Iceland. In light of events, it would be cool of CCP to offer to keep my name anonymous.

I'd also like CCP to openly address the bonus round and tell me what they would like me to do. CCP doesn't need to be silently monitoring (laughing?) and then make some surprise judgement.

I've said many times, just tell me what you guys want. I love CCP and this great game that has outlasted so many others- because of its very nature. Want to tell me limits for bonus rounds? That's cool. Want me to stop them altogether? Not as fun, but hey I'd respect that.

I do still plan on running a legitimate EVE bank anyway very soon! I'll keep everyone posted on that.

Let's all have a civil discourse, CCP included.

Thanks for your time.

-Ero

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#2230 - 2014-03-26 07:45:28 UTC
Pytria Le'Danness wrote:
Here in Germany the victim could probably sue for a variety of things and would be taken VERY seriously. And yes, the police WOULD get involved (http://www.polizei-beratung.de/presse/609-cybermobbing-ist-kein-kinderspiel.html, text in german).

If CCP condones this kind of behaviour I do not want to be a part of this community.

That's completely different. There have been German people in the bonus room before so feel free to report that to your German authorities.
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#2231 - 2014-03-26 07:47:25 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Mr Epeen wrote:
This is about CCP allowing psychopaths to use their game as a tool to lure victims.

No more. No less.

I don't understand the controversy. The answer seems plain enough. Just because he manages to technically stay within the rules doesn't make it okay. It just means that like most psychos, he's clever. Hardly worth the hero worship I'm seeing in here.

I'd like to think that most of those supporting Erotica1 are just trolling or taking the ****, but I don't think that's the case. I think that these people actually think that taking what's encouraged in game and moving it out into the real world is perfectly acceptable behavior. And I am disheartened to see it.

Mr Epeen Cool

I guess the point that confuses me is where teamspeak == the real world?
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#2232 - 2014-03-26 07:47:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Foxstar Damaskeenus wrote:
[I don't think any decent person would have let it go this far...

I'm going to start seeming like a broken record soon as this has been covered multiple times in this thread, even right from the beginning.

Who decides what is "decent" in the context of an MMO on the internet?

Drawing that line is difficult except for what is contained in the EULA. Who's culture, social norms or laws are taken as the definition of decent?

Aside from the EULA, the community should self regulate and not rely on CCP to step in every time someone does something that someone else doesn't like.
Navi Annages
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2233 - 2014-03-26 07:48:14 UTC
Foxstar Damaskeenus wrote:
ImYourMom wrote:
We have to also understand that this isnt just Erotica1, lots of people are doing this. Goonswarm are the worse for it, yet nothing was done or said about it, why?

ccp also have to take some blame for this as they openly promote this type of behaviour through gameplay



I disagree, when I was about a week in to the game I bought a ship from contract, all the fittings were there, not the ship :) And that was the end of it right there.

I don't think any decent person would have let it go this far. If I was Erotica 1 I would have pulled the teamspeak plug. Instead he kept going, kept trying to get the person angrier, let his wife get involved INSTEAD OF simply kicking the guy from comms and moving on.

He went after this guy to do harm.


Right with his cool professional demeanor.

Keep defending the racist. It's ok, who knows what color you are but i bet its the same color as this text.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8-JfK-wwFU

Foxstar Damaskeenus
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#2234 - 2014-03-26 07:48:30 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
This is about CCP allowing psychopaths to use their game as a tool to lure victims.

No more. No less.

I don't understand the controversy. The answer seems plain enough. Just because he manages to technically stay within the rules doesn't make it okay. It just means that like most psychos, he's clever. Hardly worth the hero worship I'm seeing in here.

I'd like to think that most of those supporting Erotica1 are just trolling or taking the ****, but I don't think that's the case. I think that these people actually think that taking what's encouraged in game and moving it out into the real world is perfectly acceptable behavior. And I am disheartened to see it.

Mr Epeen Cool


Well put. It's the same reason that glass weapons are banned in the rules of war. After you have blown somebodies legs of no sense having shrapnel in them that can't be picked up on x-ray.

And absolutely nothing we can do. Tomorrow ten new alts with the same scam in every chat channel, no chance they will ever undock.

This isn't a sandbox if we can't do anything.

"[this thread] is a cesspit of trolling and flaming" ISD Buldath

Cha'ka Khan
Protostarr
Wrong Hole.
#2235 - 2014-03-26 07:49:13 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Cha'ka Khan wrote:
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
My 5 cents.
That´s going too far. Psychical harassing is not funny.
You never know who the player you harass is. It may be a 14 year old who can get depressions because of that or someone with a real intellectual disability (e.g. trysomy 21) and harass such people is completely asocial.
Laughing about the victims is this case is really no mature behaviour. You can never know who the real human being in eve may be and what for handicaps he may have in real live.
What happens if they harass a 16 year old with borderline syndrome that way and he commits suicide?
In my opionion erotica and friends deserve some holidays in a russian gulag.
Sorry but eve is a game and behaviour like that is absolutely unacceptable in real life. Why should it be acceptable in a game, then?



ONLINE INTERACTIONS NOT RATED BY THE ESRB.

This disclaimer right here.... means that your monkey ass needs to be aware that there are asshols and douchebags ONLINE.

Stop bringing this same old argument up. parents shouldnt let their kids play violent and unrated games if they are ujnderage and have mental issues.



You do realise that online games are rated, hence why Eve has a rating of 12 PEGI.

Another person who thinks the US is the only country in world...



the GAME is rated.... NOT the ONLINE INTERACTIONS.... that disclaimer is on both uS AND Euro copies. Yes I am American. But I do not agree with the thought process that we are the only people out there... stop stereotyping....

The only thing we have to fear, is new pilots and AFK miners. 

Foxstar Damaskeenus
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#2236 - 2014-03-26 07:50:38 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Foxstar Damaskeenus wrote:
[I don't think any decent person would have let it go this far...

I'm going to start seeming like a broken record soon as this has been covered multiple times in this thread, even right from the beginning.

Who decides what is "decent" in the context of an MMO on the internet?

Drawing that line is difficult except for what is contained in the EULA. Who's culture, social norms or laws are taken as the definition of decent?

Aside from the EULA, the community should self regulate and not rely on CCP to step in every time someone does something that someone else doesn't like.


You have to be blind if you cant see that continuing this while the guy and his wife are losing it is far beyond the lines of decency.

"Drawing that line is difficult" my ass, this is a weak argument at best.

"[this thread] is a cesspit of trolling and flaming" ISD Buldath

Space Juden
Supermassive Potato Pancake
#2237 - 2014-03-26 07:50:41 UTC
Erotica 1 wrote:


Could you tell me why you guys were so quick to gloss over his personal story of having three kills as an Iraq war veteran if it weren't that it would make it all less funny?
Trance Oskold
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2238 - 2014-03-26 07:51:10 UTC
It's pretty simple really. In the EVE EULA in the user content section it states:

"CCP may take any action it deems appropriate regarding any User Content, if CCP believes, in its sole discretion, that such User Content violates the EULA or may expose CCP, its licensors and/or its suppliers to liability, damage CCP's relationship with any of its suppliers, licensors, ISPs or other users of EVE, harm anyone or harm CCP's reputation or goodwill."

I'm pretty sure the news this is about to get is going to harm CCP's reputation if they do nothing. Jester's article is already starting to make it's rounds on other news sites, and I just heard CNN might be running a story on it. You can get an idea of what they might say based on the feedback in the comments here: http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/03/25/heres-some-of-the-cyberbullying-that-happens-in-eve-online/

Not looking very good CCP. Not looking good at all.
Navi Annages
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2239 - 2014-03-26 07:53:18 UTC
Trance Oskold wrote:
It's pretty simple really. In the EVE EULA in the user content section it states:

"CCP may take any action it deems appropriate regarding any User Content, if CCP believes, in its sole discretion, that such User Content violates the EULA or may expose CCP, its licensors and/or its suppliers to liability, damage CCP's relationship with any of its suppliers, licensors, ISPs or other users of EVE, harm anyone or harm CCP's reputation or goodwill."

I'm pretty sure the news this is about to get is going to harm CCP's reputation if they do nothing. Jester's article is already starting to make it's rounds on other news sites, and I just heard CNN might be running a story on it. You can get an idea of what they might say based on the feedback in the comments here: http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/03/25/heres-some-of-the-cyberbullying-that-happens-in-eve-online/

Not looking very good CCP. Not looking good at all.


Cnn running a story lawl. A real human interest piece. I guess i should call cnn and tell them my neighbor was scammed for 5,000 bucks by a Nigerian trying to tell them that a relative died and left them hundreds of thousands of dollars. I bet they'll take my story over a scrub losing 20 bucks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8-JfK-wwFU

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#2240 - 2014-03-26 07:53:34 UTC
CNN? Wow, that's taking a petty grudge too far. Only a sociopath would go that far.