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Pew Terror
All of it
#801 - 2014-03-25 20:00:24 UTC
quick tl;dr:

Give me ingame thing X, I wont betray you (mauahahaha) <- Valid EvE gameplay, not under argument
I will not return ingame item X unless you do action Y in real life! <- Topic under discussion.

Does item X represent an object of value to the victim so that making him perform action Y is blackmail/coersion? Where is the line for action Y in real life (singing a single song widely considered ok, self mutilation considered not ok. Line somewhere in the middle). Is there a moral standard pertaining RL interaction between players that demands CCP interaction?
Salvos Rhoska
#802 - 2014-03-25 20:00:38 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
The sum total of harm is a couple of hours of frustration, a days worth of farming (of virtual assets the player doesn't really own anyway), and if the player really, really, really wants to get away from the experience, trade the character.


You are underestimating the severity of this situation.

Extortion and blackmail are a federal felony in the US.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#803 - 2014-03-25 20:02:38 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
The sum total of harm is a couple of hours of frustration, a days worth of farming (of virtual assets the player doesn't really own anyway), and if the player really, really, really wants to get away from the experience, trade the character.


You are underestimating the severity of this situation.

Extortion and blackmail are a federal felony in the US.


Are you serious?!

I loled for real

Seriously

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Salvos Rhoska
#804 - 2014-03-25 20:03:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Yes, I'm for real. Look em up yourself.

Did you really think that there are no people playing EVE capable of committing a felony OUTSIDE of EVE?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#805 - 2014-03-25 20:04:18 UTC
Toshiro Ozuwara wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Your words. Some guy getting embarrassed because he's greedy is in no way comparable to sexual assault.

I wasn't comparing it to sexual assault. I was comparing his rationalization to the rationalizations for sexual assault.


Then allow me to be fully serious here.

Blaming the victim in RL sexual violence = not okay, and such rationalization is in and of itself morally reprehensible since the rationalization itself does measurable harm to real people who are or are yet to be victims of sexual assault.

Blaming the victim in RL for other crimes = you blame the victim where appropriate given the circumstances and blame the criminal always.

Blaming the victim in Eve scam = okay. Eve is a dangerous place and assumed to be dangerous, and since we can't blame the eve-criminal for valid gameplay, we can certainly blame the victim for being stupid and greedy. If the criminal does morally reprehensible things (like manipulating and taunting the disabled), then we consider and judge that separately from the scam. It may make the victim seem more sympathetic, but it doesn't make him any less stupid and greedy. Blaming the victim isn't the same as absolving the criminal. Its just that in Eve we tend to hold the criminal blameless by default, because its much more fun that way.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#806 - 2014-03-25 20:05:04 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


Yes, I'm for real. Look em up yourself.

Did you really think that there are no people playing EVE capable of committing a felony OUTSIDE of EVE?


Im laughing because you are a fantasist if you think those apply

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#807 - 2014-03-25 20:05:53 UTC
Victor Andall wrote:
So where's the coercion?

The forcing.

The humiliation that the victim had no choice but be subject to?

In short, where's the actual bullying?


Well for one I highly doubt that Erotica takes the time to explain what the bonus round is BEFORE taking all their assets. So the victim gives all their assets under the assumption that the bonus round is all fun and games. Then once stripped of all assets, Erotica has leverage to keep it going for as long as he likes. Anyone who argues that the items aren't worth anything is kidding themselves. There is real time and effort (and sometimes money) invested in these items. None of us would willingly take a loss that makes up the majority of assets we gathered during our time played.

Using that leverage Erotica drags the bonus room on and on and on to the point where it's not reasonably fun anymore. Sing a few songs, fine. Few jokes here and there, also fine. But there's a point where a 'hazing' turns into bullying. But as the victim what are you going to do? If you say no you lose all your stuff and that's a big gamble to take when the end of the torment could be just beyond the next 'joke'.

Sure you could say that you shouldn't be stupid enough to participate in the first place. But if for whatever reason someone does decides to participate, that doesn't mean Erotica gets a free ticket to be a sadistic bastard.

My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!

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Danalee
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#808 - 2014-03-25 20:05:56 UTC
As suggested in the blog, I let my dear grandmother hear the hilarious soundcloud and explained to her what happened.

She asked; Why is this poor man playing along with this charade?
My answer: He thinks he can be space rich if he does.
Her answer: Greedy and stupid... poor chap.

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Dave Stark
#809 - 2014-03-25 20:06:06 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Toshiro Ozuwara wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Your words. Some guy getting embarrassed because he's greedy is in no way comparable to sexual assault.

I wasn't comparing it to sexual assault. I was comparing his rationalization to the rationalizations for sexual assault.


Then allow me to be fully serious here.

Blaming the victim in RL sexual violence = not okay, and such rationalization is in and of itself morally reprehensible since the rationalization itself does measurable harm to real people who are or are yet to be victims of sexual assault.

Blaming the victim in RL for other crimes = you blame the victim where appropriate given the circumstances and blame the criminal always.

Blaming the victim in Eve scam = okay. Eve is a dangerous place and assumed to be dangerous, and since we can't blame the eve-criminal for valid gameplay, we can certainly blame the victim for being stupid and greedy. If the criminal does morally reprehensible things (like manipulating and taunting the disabled), then we consider and judge that separately from the scam. It may make the victim seem more sympathetic, but it doesn't make him any less stupid and greedy. Blaming the victim isn't the same as absolving the criminal. Its just that in Eve we tend to hold the criminal blameless by default, because its much more fun that way.


we don't even need to blame the victim, we just need to point out that this situation simply didn't need to happen if the "victim" didn't want it to happen as he was one keystroke from the situation not existing.
Salvos Rhoska
#810 - 2014-03-25 20:06:07 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Im laughing because you are a fantasist if you think those apply


It applies completely, because it happened OUTSIDE OF EVE.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#811 - 2014-03-25 20:06:24 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
The sum total of harm is a couple of hours of frustration, a days worth of farming (of virtual assets the player doesn't really own anyway), and if the player really, really, really wants to get away from the experience, trade the character.


You are underestimating the severity of this situation.

Extortion and blackmail are a federal felony in the US.


Are you serious?!

I loled for real

Seriously




Well I don't think this is a federal crime but you have to consider this: where there is belligerency there is little protection to be offered by paper.

Where it up to me to do this to someone, to take them to a bonus room of sorts, I would not be checking the legal aspects of "legal or not" but more for the matter of whether I could be charged or not.

Being charged with federal crimes is unlikely for this case, but perchance the person you are doing this do knows someone in power, or the media is having a slow day and there's a prosecutor looking for some fame, would still mean an arrest, confiscation of all computer assets (and any cash on hand) followed by thousands in legal bills.


You don't have to be guilty to pay for a "crime".

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Desivo Delta Visseroff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#812 - 2014-03-25 20:06:29 UTC
I can't help but feel that this thread will be the beginning of an end.

I was hunting for sick loot, but all I could get my hands on were 50 corpses[:|]..............[:=d]
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#813 - 2014-03-25 20:06:46 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
The sum total of harm is a couple of hours of frustration, a days worth of farming (of virtual assets the player doesn't really own anyway), and if the player really, really, really wants to get away from the experience, trade the character.


You are underestimating the severity of this situation.

Extortion and blackmail are a federal felony in the US.


According to the US legal code, Extortion and blackmail involve other criminal actions(threatening to commit a crime against someone or threatening to reveal someone's illegal activity).
Navi Annages
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#814 - 2014-03-25 20:07:04 UTC
Here's one. Sokhar is responsible for the Malaysian flight that was lost. Trust those air traffic controllers with your life. Trust Erotica with your isk.


Erotica for CSM!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8-JfK-wwFU
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#815 - 2014-03-25 20:07:07 UTC
We've become a type of porn. Not sexual but psychologically violent. Soul snuffing, come to EVE and watch it here. WE invented it, cultivated it and praise it as emergent. We are the future. Externalize your inner social perversions here. WHy fantasize about torturing other people when you can come here and do it for real under the protection of International and corporate civil and criminal law loopholes.

We ARE the new porn
Forum Clone 77777
Doomheim
#816 - 2014-03-25 20:07:20 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
The sum total of harm is a couple of hours of frustration, a days worth of farming (of virtual assets the player doesn't really own anyway), and if the player really, really, really wants to get away from the experience, trade the character.


You are underestimating the severity of this situation.

Extortion and blackmail are a federal felony in the US.

Extortion? CCP owns everything in the game, what you percieve as "yours" in EVE is owned, all of it, by CCP.
How do you extort someone for something they dont own?
It would be the same as me saying "You gave me your imaginary lollipop under false premises, now sing a song or you wont get your IMAGINARY lollipop back"
Its the exact same thing. A person with mental problems might actually get angry about the imaginary lollipop, but that doesnt actually mean anything.
No one forced these people to give away their stuff, theyre giving it away willingly.
No one is forcing these people to act out and be subject to jokes on teamspeak, they could quit anytime, not say anything, or just not get onto that teamspeak to begin with.

What youre doing on the other hand is trying to make up reasons for people to actually be punished for hilarious **** happening in a game, where you only have some sort of percieved ownership of assets.

Me, I heard the entire recording, and whenever the dude had a tantrum I laughed my ass off, am I evil? No, if people have their real life property stolen, I dont laugh in their faces, theres a difference, this guy is acting up massively over CCPs property still being CCPs property, welcome the the real world, welcome to EVE.
Your assets are only "yours" as long as theyre in "your" hangar.
Desivo Delta Visseroff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#817 - 2014-03-25 20:09:58 UTC
Navi Annages wrote:
Here's one. Sokhar is responsible for the Malaysian flight that was lost. Trust those air traffic controllers with your life. Trust Erotica with your isk.


Erotica for CSM!!!



-100/10 Why are you such a bad troll? I feel bad for you. Embarrassed even.

I was hunting for sick loot, but all I could get my hands on were 50 corpses[:|]..............[:=d]
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#818 - 2014-03-25 20:10:11 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Im laughing because you are a fantasist if you think those apply


It applies completely, because it happened OUTSIDE OF EVE.


I doesnt apply because there was no cash value to anything.

No money changed hands.

Im not sure extortion can even be a thing without a threat of violence

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#819 - 2014-03-25 20:10:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Extortion and blackmail are a federal felony in the US.
Unless you happen to be the government, or a friend of the government; as is true elsewhere in the world.

Eve online is not the USA, it is a virtual world where the laws are set by the creators of that world.

The creators of that world are regulated by Icelandic law, not US law.

But all of that is besides the point, while the bonus room is technically outside of the Eve universe, it is very much operated within the context of the Eve universe.

If the aggrieved party wishes to make a complaint against Erotica they are free to do so either via CCP or their local law enforcement authority, I don't think that threatening to gut someone over some pixels is going to go down particularly well with either though.

Muestereate wrote:
We've become a type of ****. Not sexual but psychologically violent. Soul snuffing, come to EVE and watch it here. WE invented it, cultivated it and praise it as emergent. We are the future. Externalize your inner social perversions here. WHy fantasize about torturing other people when you can come here and do it for real under the protection of International and corporate civil and criminal law loopholes.

We ARE the new ****
I'd much rather that social perversions as you call them were carried out within a virtual environment than in the real world.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Salvos Rhoska
#820 - 2014-03-25 20:11:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Danalee wrote:
---


Well, you lied to her.

What happened to him is the following by analogy:

Your daughter comes out of a store with a lollipop inhand, happy as can be.

A grown man comes up to your daughter and promises her that if she gives him her lollipop, he will give her two back in return.

Your daughter thinks about this for a moment, and decides that two lollipops are indeed better than one.
She complies and gives him her lollipop.

The grown man, now holding her lollipop, then additionally informs her that in order for her to get the double lollipop deal, she has to get off the street she is on, and follow him down this dark alley.

Your daughter thinks that "but he is still holding my lollipop! and maybe its true that I will still get the second one".

So she complies and follows him down the dark alleyway.

There suddenly more grown men appear, and begin demanding that she performs various degrading and humiliating activities in order to get back her lollipop. They also record the entire 2hr activity for their own and their "friends" enjoyment.

I leave the rest to your imagination.

That is what happened here.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent