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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#721 - 2014-03-25 19:18:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Jayem See wrote:
Quote:
then i suggest you stay away from irrelevant anecdotes and stick to the facts of the situation.

the fact of the situation is as follows; he was one keystroke from removing himself from the situation and turning a 1.5 hour teamspeak session in to a non-event.


As stated before. Not everyone reacts in the same way. I don't need to argue with you. My issue is not with you.

My issue is with the length of time it went on, the obvious pleasure that was derived from someone else's discomfort and the lack of recognition from the protaganist that it had gone far enough.

When you tie that in to how it will (or won't) affect CCP's reputation I think it is a bad thing. It was just too much.

They can act on it or not - that's up to them. I'll be watching with interest.


The fact that not everyone reacts the same way does not legitimize a persons conduct.

Most people would run out of a buring house, the fact that one guy would not don't make that the smart thing to do.

Erotica1s only responsibility was to follow the TOS and EULA as best he could, he held ZERO responsibility for the actions of the guy being scammed. The guy being scammed bore the only responsibility to protect himself from in game loss and teamspeak humiliation. He had full control over his computer and his actions and failed to respond in a proper way. Even his own allaince mates (seen in this thread) are saying that.

He also gave verbal consent for the entire thing. It can be heard on the recording.
Anh Emarious
Diplomatic-Incident
#722 - 2014-03-25 19:18:34 UTC
I would agree that as most of us have echoed "scamming" is part of EvE and we expect it. However this incident went well beyond a "scam". If they had ended the encounter after taking his assets then so be it but two issues occurred which took this "scam" into the realm of disturbing and bullying.

1. All the crap they put him through for 2 hours after did nothing of value for the scam. It was done as entertainment for a group of people at the cost of one person. It was not done using game mechanics (blowing stuff up, pirating, ect) it was done over 3rd party comms and if the response to this thread is a gauge it was an encounter that the vast majority of us find disturbing. This is well beyond any norm we as a player group should accept or tolerate in EVE.

2. The posting of the recording was not done for any other reason then to further the humiliation of the target. It serves no purpose then to make the scammer's feel smug and further the pain they so obviously caused him. Anyone who listened to the recording with a modicum of humanity would not find entertainment or value in what he was put through.

The HTFU argument here is false. This was a malicious act. If this was you and you where the perpetrator would you proudly play this for your kids, your parents, or people whose opinion you value. The people involved in doing this are deeply flawed and broken in my opinion. That none of them stopped this is equally disturbing. While this may not be "illegal" it really does not matter. This is something that none of us should tolerate or encourage.
Toshiro Ozuwara
Perkone
#723 - 2014-03-25 19:18:44 UTC
Erotica 1 wrote:
This can only bring more players to EVE. Let's test it with a 21 day buddy invite on that page.

It might even increase business for the bonus round.

It didn't take long to locate the tracking beacon, deep inside the quarters for sleepin' They thought they could get away Not today, it's not the way that this kid plays
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#724 - 2014-03-25 19:18:45 UTC
Shizuken wrote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
I have no idea how this can be defended.
It's abhorrent.

Not the scamming part, but the part where someones IRL suffering becomes your purpose.


Yet so many tolerate this in lesser form through griefing and ganking. It is a difference of magnitude I agree, but it is done for the same purpose.


Ingame, yes.

Out of game, exposed and collectively bullied, no.
Kara Vix
Perkone
Caldari State
#725 - 2014-03-25 19:19:21 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Toshiro Ozuwara wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
1984esque prank call

1984 was a book about the absolute bottom of human social behavior and manipulation.

Maybe choose a different metaphor to make your particular case.


The YEAR 1984 wasn't a book, it was a year before most people had the internet and did prank calls on telephones, like I did when i was 10....in 1984....


I was making my first arrests in 1984..but not for phone pranks P
Timmy Sprinkles
The Care Factory
#726 - 2014-03-25 19:20:13 UTC
Perhaps CCP could add IP addresses linked to peoples accounts in game and in the forums. Out of Game Justice should balance the books.
Dave Stark
#727 - 2014-03-25 19:21:41 UTC
Timmy Sprinkles wrote:
Perhaps CCP could add IP addresses linked to peoples accounts in game and in the forums. Out of Game Justice should balance the books.


yes, let's promote out of game violence.

you do realise that makes you worse than the problem being discussed, right?
Toshiro Ozuwara
Perkone
#728 - 2014-03-25 19:21:52 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Yes. He willingly sent Erotica 1 isk to double. Willingly entered the "Bonus Room". Willingly logged into Teamspeak (I think he even had to willingly install Teamspeak first). He willingly contracted all his assests to strangers. He willingly sang songs and willingly read wikipedia entries. He could have chosen at any time to not do any of that, or he could have left at ANY time. Frankly, I'd expect "harassment" to be at least slightly non-consensual.

People who participate in cons are also voluntarily going along with the conman.

Doesn't make it not a con.

It didn't take long to locate the tracking beacon, deep inside the quarters for sleepin' They thought they could get away Not today, it's not the way that this kid plays
Salvos Rhoska
#729 - 2014-03-25 19:22:10 UTC
ShipSpin wrote:
That is not true and here's why, see the bold sections.

Quote:
§ 11.443 Harassment.
A person commits a petty misdemeanor if, with purpose to harass another, he or she:
(a) Makes a telephone call without purpose or legitimate communication; or
(b) Insults, taunts or challenges another in a manner likely to provoke violent or disorderly response; or
(c) Makes repeated communications anonymously or at extremely inconvenient hours, or in offensively coarse language; or
(d) Subjects another to an offensive touching; or
(e) Engages in any other course of alarming conduct serving no legitimate purpose.


It IS true from the following bolded sub-section:
(b) Insults, taunts or challenges another in a manner likely to provoke violent or disorderly response; or

The perpetrators (Erotica1 and company) repeatedly challenge the victim to perform demeaning acts, in the form of demands to which the victim is likely to respond in a violent or disorderly fashion rather than acquiescing to the blackmail/extortion implicit in expressing those challenges in the first place.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#730 - 2014-03-25 19:22:10 UTC
Toshiro Ozuwara wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
the fact of the situation is as follows; he was one keystroke from removing himself from the situation and turning a 1.5 hour teamspeak session in to a non-event.

Do you attribute this to his lack of awareness or Erotica1's skill at manipulation?

"Shouldn't have worn that dress"


Your words. Some guy getting embarrassed because he's greedy is in no way comparable to sexual assault. Just like getting made fun of on the internet is not the same as torture (DIAF ripard), and getting scammed is not cyberbullying.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#731 - 2014-03-25 19:22:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Timmy Sprinkles wrote:
Perhaps CCP could add IP addresses linked to peoples accounts in game and in the forums. Out of Game Justice should balance the books.
Umm how about no.

Besides being a gross violation of privacy, vigilante justice is a crime in the real world.

If you truly believe that what you say is justified then you're a despicable human being.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Timmy Sprinkles
The Care Factory
#732 - 2014-03-25 19:23:32 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Timmy Sprinkles wrote:
Perhaps CCP could add IP addresses linked to peoples accounts in game and in the forums. Out of Game Justice should balance the books.


yes, let's promote out of game violence.

you do realise that makes you worse than the problem being discussed, right?


Based on the other things going on out of game promoting bullying, it would be no different.
Toshiro Ozuwara
Perkone
#733 - 2014-03-25 19:23:32 UTC
Pew Terror wrote:
Sometimes when i walk by a homeless person near the mall and notice they are pretty weak I just start kicking them in the chins and take their quarters. Then I laugh at them when they tear up realizing that they will have to starve the next few days.

Yeah, preying on the weak and defenseless makes me a pretty hilarious dude!

Sound like those homeless people just need to HTFU. You were totally within the EULA on that one bro.

It didn't take long to locate the tracking beacon, deep inside the quarters for sleepin' They thought they could get away Not today, it's not the way that this kid plays
Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#734 - 2014-03-25 19:23:45 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
You dont seem to understand how courts work.

Aany threats Sohkar made can be tried in separate cases. Thats fine and Erotica1s prerogative to pursue.
They do not however absolve Erotica1 of his own conduct or legal culpability.

Second of all, and as would invariably be the case for the defence if those charges where brought against Sohkar, is that he was under duress caused by Erotica1 in the first place, at the time that he made them. This is substantiated further by even his wife entreating the perpetrators to desist.

You are underestimating the severity of this situation.
This is some very serious **** that goes well beyond forum trolling.


It would only go to court if Sohkar acted on what was said. Until/if that happens, no one will care less, no court, no lawyer, no one. Please stop making this appear to be something that it's not. Someone got scammed out of some video game stuff. He did some songs on some communication device, he got upset and said a few things. Welcome to Eve.

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
Feyth Yinleq
Doomheim
#735 - 2014-03-25 19:24:23 UTC
Let's be clear on what happened and where the problem lies: it lies in the cowardice and lack of morality of Erotica 1.

Drawing a player in the net of the bonus-room scam is easy, as there are many not so smart players in EVE.
But abusing such a "limited" person for more than 2 hours is beyond description in terms of stupidity and lack of conscience.

I believe in Karma and I think these despicable acts will be paid for in due time.

For the moment, I hope CCP does react and does something. If they don't, I will have to cancel my subscription as I don't want to be involved in a game and a community endorsing such activities without raising an eyebrow.
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#736 - 2014-03-25 19:24:28 UTC
Toshiro Ozuwara wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Yes. He willingly sent Erotica 1 isk to double. Willingly entered the "Bonus Room". Willingly logged into Teamspeak (I think he even had to willingly install Teamspeak first). He willingly contracted all his assests to strangers. He willingly sang songs and willingly read wikipedia entries. He could have chosen at any time to not do any of that, or he could have left at ANY time. Frankly, I'd expect "harassment" to be at least slightly non-consensual.

People who participate in cons are also voluntarily going along with the conman.

Doesn't make it not a con.


But in Eve it is valid game play, not harassment.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
Dave Stark
#737 - 2014-03-25 19:24:34 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Toshiro Ozuwara wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
the fact of the situation is as follows; he was one keystroke from removing himself from the situation and turning a 1.5 hour teamspeak session in to a non-event.

Do you attribute this to his lack of awareness or Erotica1's skill at manipulation?

"Shouldn't have worn that dress"


Your words. Some guy getting embarrassed because he's greedy is in no way comparable to sexual assault. Just like getting made fun of on the internet is not the same as torture (DIAF ripard), and getting scammed is not cyberbullying.


you know, it totally passed me by that he was referencing sexual assault there.

so we've had a torture, and sexual assault comparison.
any bets on the next dumb comparison?
Toshiro Ozuwara
Perkone
#738 - 2014-03-25 19:24:41 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Your words. Some guy getting embarrassed because he's greedy is in no way comparable to sexual assault.

I wasn't comparing it to sexual assault. I was comparing his rationalization to the rationalizations for sexual assault.

It didn't take long to locate the tracking beacon, deep inside the quarters for sleepin' They thought they could get away Not today, it's not the way that this kid plays
Toshiro Ozuwara
Perkone
#739 - 2014-03-25 19:25:38 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
But in Eve it is valid game play, not harassment.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

It didn't take long to locate the tracking beacon, deep inside the quarters for sleepin' They thought they could get away Not today, it's not the way that this kid plays
Dave Stark
#740 - 2014-03-25 19:25:51 UTC
Timmy Sprinkles wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Timmy Sprinkles wrote:
Perhaps CCP could add IP addresses linked to peoples accounts in game and in the forums. Out of Game Justice should balance the books.


yes, let's promote out of game violence.

you do realise that makes you worse than the problem being discussed, right?


Based on the other things going on out of game promoting bullying, it would be no different.


i'm sorry was that a justification of promoting real life violence? because if it was, that was terrible.
if it wasn't then; what the hell are you talking about?