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Why do we hate gankers so much?

First post
Author
Jonestu
Royal Khanid Fleet Auxiliary
#1 - 2014-03-20 09:05:54 UTC
This is a response to the "Why do we hate miners so much."

I personally do not hate gankers, its part of the game and it's just accept it.
I feel that someone who's sole mission is to kill people sitting in miningbarges just because they are mining might need to think a bit about it. It does not sound very healthy. Yes ganking is part of the game and sure miners will get blown up but how are you any different from the miners if you just go to kill miners? Its the same repetitive task.

Mining explained:
Scout belt -> Scan asteroids -> Lock targets -> Fire lasers -> Return to station and repeat.

Ganking miners in hisec:
Run D-scan -> Scout belts -> Lock targets -> Fire lasers/rockets/missiles/cannons/blasters -> Return to station and repeat.

So... I don't see the difference. There is no challenge in mining in hi-sec, its usually very relaxing to just warp in with a Retriver and mine some. I don't have a difficult fight against rats and its just easy all over. Ganking is the same. You fit a ship that you found on battleclinic or similar site. Then you fly out lock a miner that does not stand a chance kill him easily then come and brag about it here on the forums.

I am a miner but I do not hate gankers... I pity them for not being able to do anything else but to kill miners who can't fight back.

Then again a word to the miners. If you start crying about how you got blown up then there is a very easy fix for it. Fly a tanked Procure and you will be less of a attractive target, raging about how you lost your nice Retriver, your modules and your ore.
Well lets do a quick calculation. Ship: ~30m, modules ~10m, ore: ~4.5m So a total off ~44.5m. For the same money you will get that Procure that will keep you alive a bit longer.
Also... raging never helps, most likely it just makes you a more attractive target for the gankers since its fun to kill you. Want my advice? Shrug it off, go mine some where else or skill up and get into PvP and give them a fight. Complaining never helps and it will just encourage them.

So last words of this rant.
Gankers you are not better then miners and stop bragging about how amazing you are for killing miners... its not a challenge to beat up someone with no arms or legs, Miners stop whining and if you think hi-sec is safe think again, If you bot mine then you got no right to complain and I do hope that you get booted, AFK miners... make sure you are in a Procure to keep you a little more safe.
Thats all from me.

Fly safe everyone and may the woob of Zoidberg ever be in your favor.

6.023 x 10 to the 23rd power alligator pears = Avocado's number Dubbed Not-A-Carebear by Malcolm Shinhwa A carebear's diary

Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#2 - 2014-03-20 09:10:13 UTC
It's just children who think their actions are better than others.

One involves imposing their desires on others.

The other involves providing necessary materials needed to build and craft the ships we all wish to fly.

They'll grow up some day, hopefully.
Karen Avioras
The Raging Raccoons
#3 - 2014-03-20 09:10:26 UTC
/care
Jonestu
Royal Khanid Fleet Auxiliary
#4 - 2014-03-20 09:12:33 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
It's just children who think their actions are better than others.

One involves imposing their desires on others.

The other involves providing necessary materials needed to build and craft the ships we all wish to fly.

They'll grow up some day, hopefully.

Honestly not sure they will.
But one can but hope I assume... oh well. Gankers will gank and miners will mine I assume. It would be a damn shame if all the indys went away from this game since then most would not be able to play. And I do find it quite ironic that some miners and indy's actually get killed with their own ships.
I mean I build Catalysts and most of the standard ganking fitting and sell it... so its likely that I have been killed by one of my own ships and guns.

6.023 x 10 to the 23rd power alligator pears = Avocado's number Dubbed Not-A-Carebear by Malcolm Shinhwa A carebear's diary

KnowUsByTheDead
Sunlight...Through The Blight.
#5 - 2014-03-20 09:32:02 UTC
You hate gankers because they represent what you cannot be as a miner.

A fun-loving, enjoyable individual.

Mining sucks your life force out. Trust me, I have done my fair share of mining to know. My very first corp was a mining corp, and perusing the forums, I am sure you can find the story behind that debacle.

Ganking liberates you from the shackles of an asteroid belt or anom, and allows you to see from the fourth perspective. It allows you to create content for other players, whether for good or evil, and brings you onto the level of players who see beyond a single profession. Beyond a Pyroxeres asteroid. Beyond a Massive Scordite asteroid.

Players who have perused numerous professions.

Players seldom enter the game as gankers. They enter the game as mission runners, miners, or industrialists. Blame the NPE for that, if anything. Or NPC chat, where lifelong NPC corp members try to prevent players from joining the social aspects of the game.

It is progression of a sole player to reach beyond the bounds of "PvE" in EO, and grasp the core principles of the game. Player versus player. Or even in the name of the game we all enjoy...everyone versus everyone.

If you feel hatred towards any other playstyle, that is simply because you think the game should cater specifically to you, rather to the design the EvE developers originally set forth.

Until then, it is futile to hate a ganker. As it is futile for a ganker to hate a miner.

At least until EvE Online: Gank-Proof High Sec Entitlement patch is released.

Roll

Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the comedian is the only thing that makes sense.

Jonestu
Royal Khanid Fleet Auxiliary
#6 - 2014-03-20 09:40:57 UTC
KnowUsByTheDead wrote:
You hate gankers because they represent what you cannot be as a miner.

A fun-loving, enjoyable individual.

Mining sucks your life force out. Trust me, I have done my fair share of mining to know. My very first corp was a mining corp, and perusing the forums, I am sure you can find the story behind that debacle.

......

At least until EvE Online: Gank-Proof High Sec Entitlement patch is released.

Roll

I dont hate gankers, I do enjoy mining as much as I enjoy PvP that I have recently started doing.
As for a Gank-Proof High Sec... I hope that never comes. High sec is secure enough as it is. You cant attack someone and get away with it... people who want hi-sec to be a protected place where no PvP may occur can go to the rookie systems where you are not allowed to attack other players as I understand it.

If you misunderstood my post then I can summarize it.
Gankers stop claiming that you are good because you kills miners, Miners stop whining that hisec is not secure enough.
Everyone plays the game differently.
Miners are needed to make sure that ships and stuff gets made and gankers... well they don't fill any role that we need to have in the game other then to have fun which is also equally important.

Once more fly safe everyone and make sure to donate all your ISKis to the one and true god Zoidberg! (This is obviously a joke and not meant to offend anyone.)

6.023 x 10 to the 23rd power alligator pears = Avocado's number Dubbed Not-A-Carebear by Malcolm Shinhwa A carebear's diary

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#7 - 2014-03-20 09:46:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Same answer as the other thread.

Miner, ganker, legitimate ISK doubler, scammer, industrialist, corp thief ...

They're all good in my book.
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#8 - 2014-03-20 09:48:56 UTC
Jonestu wrote:

I am a miner but I do not hate gankers... I pity them for not being able to do anything else but to kill miners who can't fight back.


This is a misconception.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#9 - 2014-03-20 09:51:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Helicity Boson wrote:
Jonestu wrote:

I am a miner but I do not hate gankers... I pity them for not being able to do anything else but to kill miners who can't fight back.


This is a misconception.

Yes on 2 accounts.

It's impossible to kill anyone in this game. You can only destroy the tools they are using.

Of course miners can fight back. Their choice not to isn't the fault of the gankers.
Charlie Firpol
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2014-03-20 09:53:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Charlie Firpol
Every miner and industrialist knows, you need demand for your minerals and products to be worth something.
Also, the less supply there is, the more ISK you get for your stuff.

So, stuff getting blown up is a good thing. Gankers blwoing miners up are 2 good things at once, they increase demand and lessen the supply.

It is just importand for every miner, that it is not his barge that gets ganked. How he manages to do that could vary wildly.
You could tank your barge heavily, fly a skiff or procurer, shield links on his orca boost, go to where less gankers are, pay for a mining permit (lol, who am I kidding...don´t do that).

The Butcher of Black Rise - eve-radio.com

Arkon Olacar
black.listed
#11 - 2014-03-20 10:04:09 UTC
This thread will go places
KnowUsByTheDead
Sunlight...Through The Blight.
#12 - 2014-03-20 10:28:03 UTC
And that is the thing, OP, I trust your word and your honor , especially if Malcolm has vouched for you.

However, it is the hundred other loud-mouthed bears that do not understand the purpose of the game, that spawn these endless threads.

It is not an issue of misunderstanding, it is an issue of pounding the same principles that were pounded into my head as a newbie, into your head as a newbie, and into the heads of hundreds of other players that have migrated from "Die, spawn with previous equipment, repeat...MMO's" that expect some sense of entitlement or hand-holding whenever someone violences a space ship in EvE Online.

Let's be honest with each other...it's ridiculous.

Guess what?

The bad guy ganking, scamming, awoxing ******* that types these forum posts is the same innocent newbie that had 20% of his profit scraped off the top of his ore-buyback program when he was still new to the game. The outcome of that did not end well for the scalper.

No, instead, I made off with his player base, his assets, his best friend, amongst other things.

But how is it I can grasp these things at a few weeks old, but other players cannot tank their barges, or simply buy a permit and keep themselves from being ganked after months, and in some cases, years?

Once that question can be answered, then you have the answer to why there will perpetually be a void and divide between carebear and ganker/PvPer.

It's as simple as that. A simple question. A simple answer. But some people are not willing to accept that answer, because they have migrated from a hundred different games where cause did not have effect. Where actions did not have lasting consequences.

Once you can solve that riddle, you have answered you question, much as the other individual who posted quite the opposite thread in General Discussion.

It is never a matter of hate. It is a matter of imposing someone's will onto another. It is a matter of balance. It is a matter of game mechanics. Some need changed, others need buffed.

EvE may be a lore driven storyline, but make no mistake of it's acronym. We are all competing. Some would say in intermet spaceships. But I would rather look at it as a mirror of the societies we live in.

Greed propels. Not happiness or "fun."

Hatred rallies. Not solidarity.

Experience teaches. Not advice and shared thought.

EvE is, and has been, a social experiment of astronomical proportions, make no mistake. And it will remain that way until CCP caves to the bear population, in search of sub numbers. And it has been a wonderful experiment, indeed. As it has shown the worst and the best in people. From myself stripping people of their belongings in the Bonus Round of Erotica 1's isk doubling business, because they cannot follow rules, or it be Sindel Pellion helping newbies with the Angel Project.

And it will be that way forever.

As Rust Cohle (the character) said in the final episode of this season of True Detective. It is the oldest story of all. Light versus dark. Good versus evil.

And hatred, on either side, will never stop it. Only realization that this is a game, comprised of pixels will stop this endless war. Once every bot-aspirant is gone, will it be over.

Because ask yourself...are we really the bad guys? Or are we the bad guys who merely exist to make sure other bad guys do not take over our internet universe? Devolve it into a Trammelized version of what we once knew?

As I said before, and as it still stands, hatred is futile. We should be applauding the other communities for giving us content.

Gankers give miners goals. Always another mining ship to be bought.

Miners give gankers goals. Always another target to be shot.

'Tis the way of things. And it is this way because CCP made the rules this way. Not gankers, miners, null poilitcos, or anyone else. Just CCP. So suppress your futility. Use it when it is needed. Because this is the oldest story. Good guys versus the bad guys. And it is seen that way on both sides. A never-ending struggle. And certainly not something to add to the 3-4 existing threads on the subject in GD.

Just saying.

Blink

Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the comedian is the only thing that makes sense.

Abyss Azizora
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2014-03-20 10:31:53 UTC
Well, I've both been a miner and a ganker one point or another. I do believe that ganking plays a very big role in the game's economy and is important, however I also believe it is far too easy and prevalent.

Without suicide ganking, two major things would change economically. First you'd have officer modules become cheap and common enough to be used in non-supercap warfare, and they would be on EVERY highsec mission runner's ship. (In fact the only reason I don't fit them is "because" of suicide ganking.) These modules are expensive because they are removed from the game by 50% on each kill. Next you'd have mining barges become much much cheaper due to the fact that their deaths would drop by 3/4.

However I will agree that suicide ganking does need to be made much much harder/less profitable than it is currently, as I would argue that suicide ganking may be even easier than highsec mining is, vastly so if multiboxing to do them. You have the issue where currently the only way you can fill a freighter entirely to capacity, and not be a target, is with raw ore, that shows a serious flaw in design. And then you have the issue of no real penalty whatsoever for doing it, hell with the standings tags they added, you don't even need throw-away alts to do it anymore.

TLDR: Suicide ganking plays a important role and should not be removed, however it should be made harder/less profitable, or with vastly increased consequences.
Balshem Rozenzweig
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-03-20 11:05:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Balshem Rozenzweig
Abyss Azizora wrote:
Well, I've both been a miner and a ganker one point or another. I do believe that ganking plays a very big role in the game's economy and is important, however I also believe it is far too easy and prevalent.

Without suicide ganking, two major things would change economically. First you'd have officer modules become cheap and common enough to be used in non-supercap warfare, and they would be on EVERY highsec mission runner's ship. (In fact the only reason I don't fit them is "because" of suicide ganking.) These modules are expensive because they are removed from the game by 50% on each kill. Next you'd have mining barges become much much cheaper due to the fact that their deaths would drop by 3/4.

However I will agree that suicide ganking does need to be made much much harder/less profitable than it is currently, as I would argue that suicide ganking may be even easier than highsec mining is, vastly so if multiboxing to do them. You have the issue where currently the only way you can fill a freighter entirely to capacity, and not be a target, is with raw ore, that shows a serious flaw in design. And then you have the issue of no real penalty whatsoever for doing it, hell with the standings tags they added, you don't even need throw-away alts to do it anymore.

TLDR: Suicide ganking plays a important role and should not be removed, however it should be made harder/less profitable, or with vastly increased consequences.


I've never ganked anyone but use hauling services often. No gankers means no pushx and no red frog. Everyone would haul their stuff themselves if it wasn't for these brave man in high dps trash fits.

Miners would also see a minor decline in overall profits. There's too many of them and they are too robust for the ganking to have significant impact but it is there.

Products destroyed in ganking attempt (both the aggressor's and the victim's) are lost, and leave the economy. It both creates a material sink and sometimes isk sink (when the items destroyed were bought from LP stores and will most likely be replaced).

So, overall, I think ganking created at least 1 profession, balanced the economy a bit, and serves as material/isk sink. They are, imo, only good for economy, if indeed significant. How much they destroy/generate exactly - no idea.

People are pissed about gankers cause they want to come home and have a quiet evening instead of game of cat and mouse. I understand them, because so do I sometimes, but it is how it is. Gankers are a gain.

"NUTS!!!" - general McAuliffe

Jessica Duranin
Doomheim
#15 - 2014-03-20 11:23:14 UTC
I don't hate gankers.
I hate the people who put 1b+ isk worth of stuff in a T1 industrial and then cry about how unfair the game is when they get blown up.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2014-03-20 11:35:09 UTC
Hate is a strong word. I have no respect for them because they bypass the normal game mechanics for easy skillless kills that mean nothing but cause a lot of annoyance and cause people to quit EvE.

There are means and methods in EvE, (war decs, low sec, wormholes, null sec, kill rights, concord) that they have found a method to ignore, bypass or otherwise game.

Its the equivalent of stealing monopoly money to win in a game of monopoly.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Amitabho Chattopadhyay
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2014-03-20 11:38:02 UTC
It's not really the ganking but rather the attitude that follows which makes it an irritant worth noting.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#18 - 2014-03-20 11:53:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Its the equivalent of stealing monopoly money to win in a game of monopoly.
The difference being that in Eve, unlike Monopoly, people are allowed to steal money and property from others, because it's within the rules of the game.

Amitabho Chattopadhyay wrote:
It's not really the ganking but rather the attitude that follows which makes it an irritant worth noting.
The attitude of the gankers who ridicule, within the context and rules of the game, those who take their internet spaceship pixels entirely too seriously?

Or the attitude of some of their victims who take it outside of the context and rules of the game. The one that throw homophobic insults, wish disease and misfortune on peoples families, make real life threats, send people pictures of their houses along with threats via email, all because they lost some internet spaceship pixels or can't play Eve as a single player game?

The people that condone the latter are just as bad. Carrying ingame grievances over into the real world is unacceptable.

The former group, the gankers, are likely to buy their victims a beer and have a civil conversation if they meet them in real life. The latter group, those who take their ingame grievances into the real world, would probably be more likely to spit in the gankers face or attempt to physically harm them, because it appears that they cannot separate reality from fantasy.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

KnowUsByTheDead
Sunlight...Through The Blight.
#19 - 2014-03-20 12:07:23 UTC
Abyss Azizora wrote:
Well, I've both been a miner and a ganker one point or another. I do believe that ganking plays a very big role in the game's economy and is important, however I also believe it is far too easy and prevalent.

Without suicide ganking, two major things would change economically. First you'd have officer modules become cheap and common enough to be used in non-supercap warfare, and they would be on EVERY highsec mission runner's ship. (In fact the only reason I don't fit them is "because" of suicide ganking.) These modules are expensive because they are removed from the game by 50% on each kill. Next you'd have mining barges become much much cheaper due to the fact that their deaths would drop by 3/4.

However I will agree that suicide ganking does need to be made much much harder/less profitable than it is currently, as I would argue that suicide ganking may be even easier than highsec mining is, vastly so if multiboxing to do them. You have the issue where currently the only way you can fill a freighter entirely to capacity, and not be a target, is with raw ore, that shows a serious flaw in design. And then you have the issue of no real penalty whatsoever for doing it, hell with the standings tags they added, you don't even need throw-away alts to do it anymore.

TLDR: Suicide ganking plays a important role and should not be removed, however it should be made harder/less profitable, or with vastly increased consequences.


I can respect this opinion, but I cannot see how suicide bros should be punished anymore than they already are.

Now, granted, Google is not always the best source as it brings up old info, from the EvE Wiki this is what a ganker already has to contend with. And keep in mind, this could be old info. The EvE wiki is not quite up to par of late.

EvElopedia - Piracy Guide wrote:


The basic system for status loss is:

0.5% Standing loss will occur on initial aggression of your target.
2.0% Standingloss will occur on the destruction of your target's ship.
12.5% Standing loss will occur on the destruction of your target's capsule.
The percentages for loss are shown here but this percentage is applied to the difference between your current security status and -10. For example, if you have a security status of 1.0 and aggress a target, you will take a penalty of 0.5%, which removes 0.045 points of security status.



Now that is just to start.

Let's average things out.

Average system in high security space: 0.6

Average gankers on a half/half Tank/Efficiency Mack (Ofc, on the high side): 3 T2 Cat's to ensure gank, 2 T2 Cat's if you don't have numbers, 3 Meta 3 Cat's for a "Maybe?" Considerably less in a 0.5 against a barge. Even less with CONCORD pulled to station.

Average Lootable Drop w/o Ore - 15mil optimistic ....and that is really optimistic. With ore, considerably more, given you have indy alts to fuel your Cat/Fitting supply, which would help your bottom line more than selling said ore. Also requires another char/alt to loot, as your warp-in cannot loot that much ore from a wreck.

Now your real concern here is sec status drop. Especially if you engage in multiple professions on one character. If you target pods, you are looking at a quick departure into negative security status. Which isn't cheap and makes ganking more difficult. It either requires time ratting, or isk to fuel Tags4Sec. Tags4Sec isn't cheap, considering the low payout for ganking miners. Sure, occasionally you will have the individual running ORE strips and DS mods, but you cannot count on that, nor can you count on the loot fairy to drop you a solid.

And contrary to popular belief, you cannot roll characters for sec status. It is against the rules. And if there is anything a highsec pirate knows, it is the rules, because we tend to push them to the absolute limits at times. I have petitioned this both to ask about sec status, and employment history personally.

So I fail to see how much more difficult it can be for a ganker to do a nice round of ganking, consistently.

It then falls on the miner to make the gank more difficult, as we are all provided the same tools in the toolbox.

More tank.

Links to make your tank stronger.

Logistics on field.

Safety over efficiency. The enjoyment of a corpmate's company over isk per hour. A team, rather than several rogue miners who mine in the same system but seldom interact. Only in it for the boosts. In a multiplayer game.

So it is easy for a miner to complain about getting ganked, and how it should be harder to gank. Because they do not see it from that point of view.

They merely see it from the point of view of a non-tanked, max efficiency exhumer, without any backup precautions or protection. In a game that promotes player versus player interaction above all else.

Put a proper tank on the ship. See how much that makes a difference.

Train a corpmate into a CS. Get some links up.

Throw an Osprey or two in belt with you. They can out-rep a Basilisk, and are cheap.

But please don't talk about ganking needing to be more difficult. Hell, we are not even getting into killrights and other things that Crimewatch and carebear entitlement put into effect.

Same tools. Same toolbox. Just learn to use them, rather than worry about isk per hour. Or even gankers, to be quite honest. Do what you like to do. Adapt and overcome if someone encroaches on you and your habits. It a giant, overly complex chess game. Learn to outplay your opponents.

After all, what the hell is the use of a damn sandbox, if you are not going to try and build the sand castles.



Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the comedian is the only thing that makes sense.

Shadowlightt
Doomheim
#20 - 2014-03-20 12:10:43 UTC
I hate gankers because they are too chicken **** to fight a ship that can fight back
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