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Revelation & Phoenix

Author
Mr Hyde113
#1 - 2014-03-17 04:56:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Hyde113
CCP,

When can we expect a balance pass on the Revelation and Phoenix? The current gap in performance between the Moros/Nag and the Rev/Phoenix is glaringly obvious, and really painful. If you don't have a specific timeline yet, could we at least hear what ideas you have for bringing them up to par with the others?

-Hyde


For those confused about the numbers: Current Dread Damage and Tier 3 BCs for Relative Comparison

Traditionally there is a mid-range where Lasers retain their high damage while blasters and autos fall off. This is not the case with the turret dreads due to the disparity in damage bonuses on the hulls.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2014-03-17 05:54:51 UTC
Pheonix problems lie more with missiles themselves. What's wrong with the rev?
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#3 - 2014-03-17 06:05:36 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Pheonix problems lie more with missiles themselves. What's wrong with the rev?

DPS and cap.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#4 - 2014-03-17 06:12:51 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Pheonix problems lie more with missiles themselves. What's wrong with the rev?


Worse dps and sustainability under fire than the Naglfar and the Moros. Being worse than those 2 means that, apart from unopposed structure shooting to save ammo, the Revelation is worthless. And if you're telling me that "saves ammo" is a balancing point, then at least give me time to take a deep breath before I laugh that hard.

The laser weaponry at capital level is just brokenly bad. It needs a balance pass, badly. In fact, lasers as a whole are long past due for a full redesign, along with drones.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#5 - 2014-03-17 06:27:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
I think a good route to go would be dropping the massive DPS increases put on siege mode and titan bonuses, and just apply them directly to the weapon itself. Siege mode would function a lot like bastion mode with a shorter cycle than current siege; increase range and keep the local tank bonuses. It would be interesting to see the gameplay involved with cap ships with dreads that could ACTUALLY get reps while doing dps. That being said, rev with double damage bonus would be nice as long as the cap regen was buffed a good bit too.

Just some food for thought.
Juan Thang
Old American Syndicate
A Class Apart
#6 - 2014-03-17 09:29:12 UTC
Revelation is ok as it is, range is better than a moros, and can be as much as a rail fit moros while just fit with pulses,
Dps is good for the range it has and the cap works fine if you fit it ok. Ive been in plenty of bashes in a rev and its performed fine.

Pheonix just has a problem with its weapons.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#7 - 2014-03-17 13:38:14 UTC
aside from the weapon systems, is there anything specifically wrong with the ships themselves?
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
#8 - 2014-03-17 14:19:39 UTC
Umm ...

T2 Siege, 3x T2 Damage, Meta 0 Guns (short range), standard high close ammo.

Revelation: 7541 - 25 + 12.5
Naglfar: 8366 - 15.6 + 36
Moros: 10223 - 12.5 + 31.3
Phoenix: 7862 - 58k

Can you see what it is yet?

Lets shoot a large POS. 30+k bubble range ... can you work out the real DPS? If we do again for 30k optimal then:

Revelation: 6913 - Gamma
Naglfar: 5577 - Depleted Uranium
Moros: 5964 - Iridium
Phoenix: 7862 - 58k


You Lasers do less for more, stop being naive. They seem very well balanced at the moment when people stop looking at dumb 'highest dps' numbers. The Pheonix cant hit for **** if its target is moving but isn't bad taking on structures.

And one last point ... take a look at the capacitor for the Moros and Rev, running their single Meta 0 repper, covers all of the siege cylce. Versus the Nag and Pheonix, that barely do half the cycle.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#9 - 2014-03-17 15:16:49 UTC
I can't replicate those numbers. With T2 siege, 3x T2 damage mods, faction ammo and T1 guns, I show:

Moros: 12,201 DPS
Naglfar: 10,053 DPS
Phoenix: 9035 DPS
Revelation: 8874 DPS

The point about range is well made, but range mods exist. With two TCs on Moros and Rev and two TEs on the Naglfar:

Moros: 16/51 km
Naglfar: 19/51 km
Phoenix: ~57 km
Revelation: 32/20 km

This takes damage at 35 km to:

Moros: 10,794 DPS
Naglfar: 9171 DPS
Phoenix: 9035 DPS
Revelation: 8853 DPS

So the Rev actually has the worst DPS and the worst damage projection. If raw damage is important, go Moros; if damage types, local tank and cap are important, go Naglfar. If you're going nano-Dreads, go Phoenix. Don't go Revelation, ever.
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
#10 - 2014-03-17 15:45:53 UTC
Gypsio III:

I am using Pyfa 1.1.20 stable Rubicon 1.1

All 5

no rigs, range mods etc.

Compare like for like, not unlike. Shield tanks vs armour ... range mods differ. Tank mods differ also, as does cap. I noted that you can run a full Capital Armour repper though nearly the whole siege while the Capital Shiled repper lets you run it for half. Using range mods like TE and TC change your tank options a lot on Turret based dreads.

You can compromise tank on the Rev and Moros for tracking/range mods, yes, but lets not kid ourselves. Where do you get your figures? They are massively out of whack from both my ingame Rev, Nag and Moros. No faction please, no damage rigs (on that note, I forgot to remove the T1 collison rig from my Nag fit, so its 'less').
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#11 - 2014-03-17 16:58:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Odd, not sure why the figures are so different. EFT 2.22.

No reloads, Triple T2 damage mod, T2 Siege, T1 guns, faction ammo.

[Naglfar, cheapo]
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Capital Shield Booster I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Siege Module II
6x2500mm Repeating Cannon I, Arch Angel EMP XL
6x2500mm Repeating Cannon I, Arch Angel EMP XL

Capital Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Capital Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Capital Semiconductor Memory Cell I

E.g.10,053 DPS (9741 DPS with reload). 19/51 km range.

[Revelation, cheapo]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Reactive Armor Hardener
tanky lowslot
tanky lowslot
tanky lowslot

Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Siege Module II
Dual Giga Pulse Laser I, Blood Multifrequency XL
Dual Giga Pulse Laser I, Blood Multifrequency XL
Dual Giga Pulse Laser I, Blood Multifrequency XL

Capital Trimark Armor Pump I
Capital Trimark Armor Pump I
Capital Trimark Armor Pump I

8874 DPS, 32/20 km.
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#12 - 2014-03-17 17:02:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Gypsio III wrote:
I can't replicate those numbers.

faction ammo
And I suspect either implants or rigs.

Well it looks like all dreadnoughts except for the Phoenix have some pretty short range. The falloff on the capital hybrids and autocannons is immense, however. Maybe their ammo should be rebalanced to cut some of that falloff away on short range. And I don't understand why capital pulse lasers are both shorter range AND lower DPS than autocannons. I think they should hit a bit harder and have significantly higher range. The autocannons win with tracking and not using capacitor. That tracking may not be useful against stations but it is useful against ships.

Double the optimal of the capital turrets and you fix the balance issue I think. You also fix the difficulty of shooting a large POS tower at full damage.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#13 - 2014-03-17 17:04:35 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

Well it looks like all dreadnoughts except for the Phoenix have some pretty short range. The falloff on the capital hybrids and autocannons is immense, however. Maybe their ammo should be rebalanced to cut some of that falloff away on short range. And I don't understand why capital pulse lasers are both shorter range AND lower DPS than autocannons. I think they should hit a bit harder and have significantly higher range. The autocannons win with tracking and not using capacitor. That tracking may not be useful against stations but it is useful against ships.


Yeah assuming my numbers are right, the problem seems to be that blasters and ACs have far too much range. Pulse should be the correct choice to use against a large POS at 35 km, but it isn't.
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#14 - 2014-03-17 17:07:28 UTC
I think all of the capital weapons have too short a range. I don't see a problem with a Moros being able to hit stuff at 150km with railguns. Why else would you fit railguns to a Moros?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
#15 - 2014-03-17 17:25:26 UTC
Yes - the no reloads and faction ammo make the difference.

Its one of the things not mentioned. Relaods and ammo switches both matter to some extent, and particularly in the case of an extended siege on a large POS (not uncommon when hitting a POS, imagine going for the Neuts on the other side of POS then the main POS itself).

As for range, its evident that Rev probably needs something minor added and Moros. well Thorium rears its head a lot on structure bashing once you realise its not all DPS.

I dont think the imbalances (I really see the nicety of quick ammo change and no reload time) are as heavy as most people think. Anyone who has sat at a POS for 30 minutes while ratting on an alt ... Rev wins.

Mr Hyde113
#16 - 2014-03-17 18:00:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Hyde113
Rab See wrote:
Umm ...

T2 Siege, 3x T2 Damage, Meta 0 Guns (short range), standard high close ammo.

Revelation: 7541 - 25 + 12.5
Naglfar: 8366 - 15.6 + 36
Moros: 10223 - 12.5 + 31.3
Phoenix: 7862 - 58k

Can you see what it is yet?

Lets shoot a large POS. 30+k bubble range ... can you work out the real DPS? If we do again for 30k optimal then:

Revelation: 6913 - Gamma
Naglfar: 5577 - Depleted Uranium
Moros: 5964 - Iridium
Phoenix: 7862 - 58k


You Lasers do less for more, stop being naive. They seem very well balanced at the moment when people stop looking at dumb 'highest dps' numbers. The Pheonix cant hit for **** if its target is moving but isn't bad taking on structures.

And one last point ... take a look at the capacitor for the Moros and Rev, running their single Meta 0 repper, covers all of the siege cylce. Versus the Nag and Pheonix, that barely do half the cycle.



Your numbers are completely off man. The issue with the Rev, is that is has been left behind when the other two turret dreads, Moros/Nag, were given double damage bonuses. This damage superiority is so large, that the moros out-damages the Revelation at range, even using anti-matter. The Nag, although lower on raw DPS to the moros, can swap damage types and can project that damage out to range, all while not using cap, and having more flexibility with its slots for tank/projection/damage. So the Rev is left in a bygone era, it used to be competitive until its turret counterparts were buffed. Currently it is Moros/Nag - Online, the others are in a second class, with the phoenix being maybe even in a third class.

Dread Dmg Graph & Tier 3 BC for relative damage comparison

The Phoenix's problems lie with Capital Missiles being pretty much useless in capital warfare, since even a super can speed thank them.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#17 - 2014-03-17 19:01:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Rab See wrote:
Yes - the no reloads and faction ammo make the difference.


Nah, still can't get them. T1 ammo and reload on. Rev and Moros have two TCs, Nag has two TEs:

Moros: 10,936 - 16/51 km
Naglfar: 8855 - 19/51 km
Revelation: 8067 - 32/20 km
Phoenix: 7862 - 58 km

At 35 km:

Moros: 9714 DPS
Naglfar: 8108 DPS
Phoenix: 7862 DPS
Revelation: 8077 DPS

So, Revelation is a better POS killer than a Phoenix, particularly since those numbers don't include the interaction of siege mode and missile flight time.

But being better than the Phoenix is not an achievement.

Edit - supercaps speed-tanking citadel missiles is almost entirely a myth. The Phoenix's problem is lack of damage, particularly when using nonkinetic to avoid RAHs and refitting.
Micky Nox
PoIite Fish
#18 - 2014-03-17 19:04:04 UTC
If you put 2 tracking comps with range scripts on those dreads then situation with rev, nag and moros will get even worse.

Moros do most dps, have better damage application and better tracking.

Naglfar is slightly behind in dps and tracking, but capless guns and switchable damage type is a good compensation.

Revelation have worst tracking, worst dps, cap dependent guns and bound to single damage type. So it's just a really-really bad moros.

Phoenix is decent firework platform. Also good bai Unfortunately it is completely useless in combat.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#19 - 2014-03-17 20:48:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucine Delacourt
I don't fly a dread so I could be way off but would adding t2 capital weapons solve the issue? Scorch is stronger than null most of the time. Presumably, adding Precision/Javelin missiles would also help the Phoenix actually hit something.
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2014-03-17 21:05:50 UTC
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
I don't fly a dread so I could be way off but would adding t2 capital weapons solve the issue? Scorch is stronger than null most of the time. Presumably, adding Precision/Javelin missiles would also help the Phoenix actually hit something.



That would maybe balance them in combat some but for structure bashing(Sadly their primary use) it would just make the Moros an even better choice.
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