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Revelation & Phoenix

Author
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2014-03-17 21:12:13 UTC
Revelation is Em/Thr. As all capitals are T1 they have high EM/Thr resists. It further puts Revelation behind in capital warfare.
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2014-03-17 21:26:57 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Revelation is Em/Thr. As all capitals are T1 they have high EM/Thr resists. It further puts Revelation behind in capital warfare.



The shield ones don't.
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2014-03-17 21:50:45 UTC
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Revelation is Em/Thr. As all capitals are T1 they have high EM/Thr resists. It further puts Revelation behind in capital warfare.



The shield ones don't.


Shield ones plug EM hole. Armour ones rearly plug the explosive.
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2014-03-17 22:02:00 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Revelation is Em/Thr. As all capitals are T1 they have high EM/Thr resists. It further puts Revelation behind in capital warfare.



The shield ones don't.


Shield ones plug EM hole. Armour ones rearly plug the explosive.



The rate is probably pretty similar.
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
#25 - 2014-03-17 22:30:42 UTC
Mr Hyde113 wrote:
Rab See wrote:
Umm ...

T2 Siege, 3x T2 Damage, Meta 0 Guns (short range), standard high close ammo.

Revelation: 7541 - 25 + 12.5
Naglfar: 8366 - 15.6 + 36
Moros: 10223 - 12.5 + 31.3
Phoenix: 7862 - 58k

Can you see what it is yet?

Lets shoot a large POS. 30+k bubble range ... can you work out the real DPS? If we do again for 30k optimal then:

Revelation: 6913 - Gamma
Naglfar: 5577 - Depleted Uranium
Moros: 5964 - Iridium
Phoenix: 7862 - 58k


You Lasers do less for more, stop being naive. They seem very well balanced at the moment when people stop looking at dumb 'highest dps' numbers. The Pheonix cant hit for **** if its target is moving but isn't bad taking on structures.

And one last point ... take a look at the capacitor for the Moros and Rev, running their single Meta 0 repper, covers all of the siege cylce. Versus the Nag and Pheonix, that barely do half the cycle.



Your numbers are completely off man. The issue with the Rev, is that is has been left behind when the other two turret dreads, Moros/Nag, were given double damage bonuses. This damage superiority is so large, that the moros out-damages the Revelation at range, even using anti-matter. The Nag, although lower on raw DPS to the moros, can swap damage types and can project that damage out to range, all while not using cap, and having more flexibility with its slots for tank/projection/damage. So the Rev is left in a bygone era, it used to be competitive until its turret counterparts were buffed. Currently it is Moros/Nag - Online, the others are in a second class, with the phoenix being maybe even in a third class.

Dread Dmg Graph & Tier 3 BC for relative damage comparison

The Phoenix's problems lie with Capital Missiles being pretty much useless in capital warfare, since even a super can speed thank them.


Wow - you are clueless. Turn on reloads, redo your graph. Read what I specced up. Tried it on EFT and Pyfa - relative values are alike. It pulls your graph lines a lot closer together. Learn to use the tool properly.

So your fixed graph illustrates exactly what I am saying. Way off ? No. Its one tool showing a clean set of figures - EFT and PyYfa differ - so the fk what? Its about the relative values. Clueless as you are, look at your graph, taking my example at 30k, they are so close its hard to separate. I use ALL 3 of the turret dreads and the Rev is best for a pos bash because I can leave it alone while I **** around with the other two on reloads. And your talking total horsecrap about damage projection on the Moros. It goes back to the point about most capitals. You see more Moros because of tracking and blap fit, and your whining because your Rev 'isnt the same' - its just different.

Its like every whine in these forums, "buff it cos I can fly it and I cant do it right". Use the right one for the job, and if its blap then you know which one. Whats the point of making lasers the same and losing their unique characteristics.
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#26 - 2014-03-17 22:39:20 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
In fact, lasers as a whole are long past due for a full redesign, along with drones.


Let me just save you here: Its never going to happen. They had a "balance" pass of the Large Weapons and that was just pitiful so that CCP justify, to themselves at least, the removal of 50% of some ships capacitors.

However, if they did:

Those Dread/BC graphs do show the power of Projectiles over distance, but the lasers are more real world accurate (aka, they suck outside of their focal point), however damage wise, it does seem a little inconsistent that lasers should be punished with a overall lower DPS on the capitals, for merely having a "better" minimum DPS for a little longer than the other two.

The best result here would be to increase the fall off damage of both the hybrid and projectile based weapons, so that they matched a little more closely towards the values given in the BC graph - not exactly, but so that the hybrids dropped off a lot more sharply and the projectiles by a good 20%. Maybe even have them slightly worse than the lasers in a certain range gap but again, better off at much longer ranges.


The Tier 3 BC's have gotten the values a little more accurate, with the DPS of the lasers outmatching the proj/hybrids before dropping like a stone.

In the case of BC's if the hybrid/lasers received a bit of a buff here, in relation to the DPS drop being a bit less steep; 10% further along the graph and 10% less steep angle would give the hybrids that little bit more range to be useful, and maybe 7.5% for the lasers.

Projectiles should be left as is as they have a decent consistency over the ranges presented.

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#27 - 2014-03-17 22:59:58 UTC
Rab See wrote:


Wow - you are clueless. Turn on reloads, redo your graph. Read what I specced up. Tried it on EFT and Pyfa - relative values are alike. It pulls your graph lines a lot closer together. Learn to use the tool properly.

So your fixed graph illustrates exactly what I am saying. Way off ? No. Its one tool showing a clean set of figures - EFT and PyYfa differ - so the fk what? Its about the relative values. Clueless as you are, look at your graph, taking my example at 30k, they are so close its hard to separate. I use ALL 3 of the turret dreads and the Rev is best for a pos bash because I can leave it alone while I **** around with the other two on reloads. And your talking total horsecrap about damage projection on the Moros. It goes back to the point about most capitals. You see more Moros because of tracking and blap fit, and your whining because your Rev 'isnt the same' - its just different.

Its like every whine in these forums, "buff it cos I can fly it and I cant do it right". Use the right one for the job, and if its blap then you know which one. Whats the point of making lasers the same and losing their unique characteristics.


Your numbers are completely off.
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
#28 - 2014-03-17 23:05:57 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Rab See wrote:


Wow - you are clueless. Turn on reloads, redo your graph. Read what I specced up. Tried it on EFT and Pyfa - relative values are alike. It pulls your graph lines a lot closer together. Learn to use the tool properly.

So your fixed graph illustrates exactly what I am saying. Way off ? No. Its one tool showing a clean set of figures - EFT and PyYfa differ - so the fk what? Its about the relative values. Clueless as you are, look at your graph, taking my example at 30k, they are so close its hard to separate. I use ALL 3 of the turret dreads and the Rev is best for a pos bash because I can leave it alone while I **** around with the other two on reloads. And your talking total horsecrap about damage projection on the Moros. It goes back to the point about most capitals. You see more Moros because of tracking and blap fit, and your whining because your Rev 'isnt the same' - its just different.

Its like every whine in these forums, "buff it cos I can fly it and I cant do it right". Use the right one for the job, and if its blap then you know which one. Whats the point of making lasers the same and losing their unique characteristics.


Your numbers are completely off.


You were the one quoting figures without reloads and with faction ammo. Try comparing against what I was talking abou, not what you imagine is right.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#29 - 2014-03-17 23:07:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
And then I quoted with reloads and with T1 ammo. Although that's stupid, because everyone uses faction. In contrast, you were the one asking for no range mods. Personally, I don't PVP in unfit dreadnoughts.

Your numbers are completely off.

EDIT - checking with Pyfa. EFT and Pyfa disagree on Rev DPS when fit with heat sinks. Looks like one has stacking penalties wrong. Will investigate further.
Mr Hyde113
#30 - 2014-03-17 23:30:17 UTC
Rab See wrote:


Wow - you are clueless. Turn on reloads, redo your graph. Read what I specced up. Tried it on EFT and Pyfa - relative values are alike. It pulls your graph lines a lot closer together. Learn to use the tool properly.

So your fixed graph illustrates exactly what I am saying. Way off ? No. Its one tool showing a clean set of figures - EFT and PyYfa differ - so the fk what? Its about the relative values. Clueless as you are, look at your graph, taking my example at 30k, they are so close its hard to separate. I use ALL 3 of the turret dreads and the Rev is best for a pos bash because I can leave it alone while I **** around with the other two on reloads. And your talking total horsecrap about damage projection on the Moros. It goes back to the point about most capitals. You see more Moros because of tracking and blap fit, and your whining because your Rev 'isnt the same' - its just different.

Its like every whine in these forums, "buff it cos I can fly it and I cant do it right". Use the right one for the job, and if its blap then you know which one. Whats the point of making lasers the same and losing their unique characteristics.



@ Rab See

1) The reload times for DPS calculations were included in the settings for the DPS graph I posted. I know how to use the tool and included what I was using for example fits in the imgur image description.

2) So you're argument is that it is okay that the Rev does less damage at all ranges because it can afk pos bash? You're insane.

3) The reason I included the Tier 3 BC dps graphs was because I wanted to demonstrate what the racial turret range/damage model looks like, and then how it fails to scale properly into dreads because 2 of the dreads have an extra damage bonus over the Rev.

4) Right one for the right job? Unique characteristics? Then why are the other two encroaching on what are by tradition Laser ranges? It is simply because they boast an extra damage bonus which leaves the Rev behind.

You have no idea what you are talking about and are clearly in denial of what the current state of dreads is. Just keep your trash to yourself.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#31 - 2014-03-17 23:36:19 UTC
Revelation. T2 siege, T1 ammo.

EFT says 4880 DPS, Pyfa says 4880 DPS. Good.
1x HS: EFT 5998, Pyfa 5927
2x HS: EFT 7174, Pyfa 6894
3x HS: EFT 8067, Pyfa 7541

So there's a problem with HS damage/rof mod, or stacking with Siege mod.

Manually calculating DPS increase upon fitting first HS takes DPS from 4880 to 5998.
Suggests EFT has it right, Pyfa has a bug somewhere. Maybe interaction of Siege and HS damage mods?

Same result seen with Naglfar.

Will check on Sisi when it finishes patching...
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#32 - 2014-03-18 00:13:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Naglfar on Sisi, 3x T2 gyro, T2 siege, T1 ammo: readout says 9139 DPS.
Manually calculated DPS from turret/ammo show-infos is 9143 DPS. Difference is attributed to rounding.

EFT says 9139 DPS, excluding reloads.
Pyfa says 8543 DPS, excluding reloads.

Conclusion: Pyfa is wrong.
Mr Hyde113
#33 - 2014-03-18 07:05:16 UTC
Regardless of any minor differences in numbers between the fitting tools, there is still a very real difference in performance between the Moros/Nag and the Rev/Phoenix. Ugh
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
#34 - 2014-03-18 09:08:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Rab See
Gypsio III wrote:
Naglfar on Sisi, 3x T2 gyro, T2 siege, T1 ammo: readout says 9139 DPS.
Manually calculated DPS from turret/ammo show-infos is 9143 DPS. Difference is attributed to rounding.

EFT says 9139 DPS, excluding reloads.
Pyfa says 8543 DPS, excluding reloads.

Conclusion: Pyfa is wrong.


Yes - seeing diff - but relative values are the same.
Luwc
EISENWORKS Inc
#35 - 2014-03-18 09:56:38 UTC
Meh

Phoenix does its job...

Bashing posses.

What basicaly 90% of dreads usualy do.

Rev is fine as well considering Tank/DPS/Tracking

Thank you good bye.

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#36 - 2014-03-18 11:05:20 UTC
Rab See wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Naglfar on Sisi, 3x T2 gyro, T2 siege, T1 ammo: readout says 9139 DPS.
Manually calculated DPS from turret/ammo show-infos is 9143 DPS. Difference is attributed to rounding.

EFT says 9139 DPS, excluding reloads.
Pyfa says 8543 DPS, excluding reloads.

Conclusion: Pyfa is wrong.


Yes - seeing diff - but relative values are the same.


Well, maybe, but your argument was based on these numbers:

Revelation: 6913 - Gamma
Naglfar: 5577 - Depleted Uranium
Moros: 5964 - Iridium
Phoenix: 7862 - 58k

which simply aren't realistic at 30-35 km.
Blodhgarm Dethahal
Moist Towelettes.
#37 - 2014-03-18 13:51:15 UTC
My Revelation does fine compared to my Moros, as a matter of fact I seem to be more cap stable in my Rev than Moros. The Revelation's strong natural capacitor helps alot (same for alot of Amarr ships).

Granted I have Amarr Dread 5 so that helps but.. *shrugs* I do enjoy my Revelation.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#38 - 2014-03-18 14:05:54 UTC
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
My Revelation does fine compared to my Moros, as a matter of fact I seem to be more cap stable in my Rev than Moros. The Revelation's strong natural capacitor helps alot (same for alot of Amarr ships).


Yeah, the Rev's guns are less cap-hungry than those of the Moros - 24.6 cap/s vs. 28.7 cap/s with three T2 damage mods, and it has the larger cap pool too. The Rev should be better in a prolonged engagement, but I don't think the difference is that significant really.
Mr Hyde113
#39 - 2014-03-20 17:21:57 UTC
Let me be clear, IMO the Rev 's main "problem" lies in the power creep of the Moros followed by the Nag, which makes it an un- competitive choice for pilots. It has simply fallen behind the times as its turret competitors were buffed to a higher tier, and deserves to be updated as well. This is fairly easy since CCP has already started phasing out the capacitor usage bonuses for Amarr, which could be replaced with something to fix the problem.

The phoenix's main problem on the other hand has to do with the damage application of citadels, and to an extent being pin holed into kinetic.
Justin Cody
Tri-gun
An Alliance Has No Name
#40 - 2014-03-20 19:31:08 UTC
Juan Thang wrote:
Revelation is ok as it is, range is better than a moros, and can be as much as a rail fit moros while just fit with pulses,
Dps is good for the range it has and the cap works fine if you fit it ok. Ive been in plenty of bashes in a rev and its performed fine.

Pheonix just has a problem with its weapons.



You're high.

The moros has superior tracking, similar range and far higher dps. Plus a viable shield tank and superior dps at all levels. The Revelation is the least damaging dread of all of them on paper and the phoenix the least dpsing in terms of shooting things that matter.
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