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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#81 - 2014-02-25 15:13:21 UTC
Taritura wrote:
Another excel expansion weee........

If you're sick of 'excel expansions' maybe you should try another game because I think you can expect many more of them in years to come. Personally, I find changes like this pretty exciting.

Oh god.
Cade Windstalker
#82 - 2014-02-25 15:14:15 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


Serpentis: One of the strongest and most fun pirate factions at the moment is certainly Serpentis. We didn't want to make major changes in theme, but there is a big conversation that can be had about the web strength bonus. As it stands, at 10% per level, it is one of the strongest bonuses in the game and in the right situation it can feel downright broken. For now, I intend to leave it at full strength. While it is very powerful, I believe it delivers on the excitement and special feel that pirate factions ought to provide. If you disagree and feel that this bonus is having a negative impact on your gameplay please let us know and we can continue to weigh the pros and cons here as this balance pass continues.


Personally I think the bonus is a bit over-powered. You need 4 standard 60% webs to equal the effect of a single % bonused web and while this isn't horrible on a Frigate, where fittings are tight and double 90% webs are rare on the larger ships it's down-right overpowering. The Vindicator specifically has more ability to take out smaller targets than any other ship in the game if they get within web range. and even after the Skirmish Link nerf that's still very close to 20km, meaning that the Vindi can keep most smaller ships out of effective weapons range, let alone effective tackle range.

If it was giving up something substantive for the massive advantage this might be somewhat balanced but it's the single hardest hitting sub-cap in the game right now and sees massive use in PvE and PvP relative to its cost.

The problem becomes that having the faction bonus degrade as the size moves up doesn't make a lot of sense IMO and a small bonus to web strength on a Battleship is going to have a hard time straddling the line between mostly useless and really over-powered. Slot-layout could be tweaked down to 4 on the Vindi to make this mostly a non-issue but previous discussions indicate that most Vindi pilots feel this would kill the ship, even if it got the 8-lows treatment of the Megathron. At the least it would make it almost impossible to shield-tank the thing, but whether that's good or bad is up for debate.
Billy Hix
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#83 - 2014-02-25 15:17:43 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Taritura wrote:
Another excel expansion weee........

If you're sick of 'excel expansions' maybe you should try another game because I think you can expect many more of them in years to come. Personally, I find changes like this pretty exciting.


The real problem is that 50% of each expansion is Fozzie and Rise. As they are all about the balancing it means each expansion 'feels' like excel updates.

The real question is, how come Rise and Fozzie make up 50% of the changes each expansion. What are everyone else up to.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2014-02-25 15:20:41 UTC
All these cool abilities make the Dramiel seem kind of bland =/

I hope it doesn't go like the Rifter.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#85 - 2014-02-25 15:22:57 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:


Personally I think the bonus is a bit over-powered. You need 4 standard 60% webs to equal the effect of a single % bonused web and while this isn't horrible on a Frigate, where fittings are tight and double 90% webs are rare on the larger ships it's down-right overpowering.


You need 5 webs, and because of stacking penalty, no number of webs can match 2 90%s.
scimichar
Deep Hole Explorers of New Eden
#86 - 2014-02-25 15:25:12 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there.


I thought we were going away from X damage type missile bonus. At least it includes therm, so it's not as terrible. I don't understand why give missiles the ability to choose damage type when you are usually restricted to which damage type you use by the ships bonus.
Cade Windstalker
#87 - 2014-02-25 15:26:20 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:


Personally I think the bonus is a bit over-powered. You need 4 standard 60% webs to equal the effect of a single % bonused web and while this isn't horrible on a Frigate, where fittings are tight and double 90% webs are rare on the larger ships it's down-right overpowering.


You need 5 webs, and because of stacking penalty, no number of webs can match 2 90%s.


Yup, I say 4 because it's like, .2% off if I remember the math I did months back, which is generally close enough, and yeah 2 90% webs is hilarious. I saw your post, very well written :)
Umberto Burgundh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2014-02-25 15:27:18 UTC
Not sure about the way you want to evolve Guristas. I mean - when you control 5 drones, well, not a big deal if one doesn't hit. But when you control only two and one of them doesn't hit, you deal only half the damage.
Jamir Von Lietuva
Nameless Minions
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#89 - 2014-02-25 15:27:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jamir Von Lietuva
i bet Cynabal is going to be the new Phantasm, its sooo stronk we dont need to rebalance it now, but when everything else is so competitive these days after the balance angel ships will probably turn out to be least used due to being outperformed in almost everything.

and pls leave the web bonus on Serpentis ships alone its not OP
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#90 - 2014-02-25 15:28:22 UTC
Rise

i would also strongly look at the daredevil and dramiel

dramiel has better cap and speed and tank and has drones and smaller sig radius and much better fitting...

daredevil needs more cap for blasters and webs.. more fitting for blasters and plates and more speed to compensate..
more armour for plate tank .. less shields .. give some drones

dramiel is supposed too be shield tanked but has far too much armour in comparison .. has more speed than inties do.
and has more cap than daredevil for its capless guns ... remove drones

succubus - more fitting might be useful being lasers and all .. also reduce armour too prevent people just plating it..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#91 - 2014-02-25 15:29:00 UTC
Umberto Burgundh wrote:
Not sure about the way you want to evolve Guristas. I mean - when you control 5 drones, well, not a big deal if one doesn't hit. But when you control only two and one of them doesn't hit, you deal only half the damage.


I can only imagine that they were thinking of honourable solo pvpers like me who fly drone ships, and get blobbed and have to leave 5 drones behind every time, then go shopping for more.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#92 - 2014-02-25 15:29:13 UTC
Hmmm...

I'll get back to you on this.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Cade Windstalker
#93 - 2014-02-25 15:29:21 UTC
scimichar wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there.


I thought we were going away from X damage type missile bonus. At least it includes therm, so it's not as terrible. I don't understand why give missiles the ability to choose damage type when you are usually restricted to which damage type you use by the ships bonus.


People have run the numbers on this a dozen times. The ships with missile specific bonuses get more launchers so they get more damage by default than other missile ships. Compare the damage on the Cerb vs the Sacrilege with various missile types. Plus having type-specific bonuses means you use that missile except when you get more from another type. Simple but with an interesting trade-off.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#94 - 2014-02-25 15:30:09 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

dramiel is supposed too be shield tanked



why
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#95 - 2014-02-25 15:35:46 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Harvey James wrote:

dramiel is supposed too be shield tanked



why


because that's what ISIS says .... shield tanked and masters of projectiles

the dramiel and daredevil need stronger focus on what they are supposed to be good at

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2014-02-25 15:36:07 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there.


I would imagine you would do similar to the Rattlesnake and Gila as you did the Worm, a 300% damage and HP buff to 2 drones. The problem for the Gila is medium drones generally suck DPS wise and are in dire need of a balance pass which could/would put the Gila in an awkward spot if it is balanced for use with medium drones before medium drones are re-done.
A similar situation for the Rattlesnake will come up as it is usually Sentries or bust with large drones.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Rodrik Vikary
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#97 - 2014-02-25 15:36:59 UTC
Just a little typo, don't know if anyone saw it already, but this:

SUCCUBUS

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage)

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed

I think Caldari and Amarr are in the wrong places...
Hope Alar
Blue Tridents
#98 - 2014-02-25 15:37:18 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
All these cool abilities make the Dramiel seem kind of bland =/

I hope it doesn't go like the Rifter.


You could. you know, cross train? Doesn't take long.
David Kir
Hotbirds
#99 - 2014-02-25 15:37:50 UTC
Billy Hix wrote:


The real question is, how come Rise and Fozzie make up 50% of the changes each expansion. What are everyone else up to.


NDA®

I'm already getting my arse ready, the next year or two are gonna be a funky ride.

Friends are like cows: if you eat them, they die.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#100 - 2014-02-25 15:37:54 UTC
Umberto Burgundh wrote:
Not sure about the way you want to evolve Guristas. I mean - when you control 5 drones, well, not a big deal if one doesn't hit. But when you control only two and one of them doesn't hit, you deal only half the damage.

I guess in the end it evens out, but I get what you are saying. I just don't see a huge appeal to the change. On a good note it means ECM drone spewing Worms are less of an issue, but I don't think I ever saw a Worm using ECM drones.