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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Maximus Andendare
Rote Kapelle
#41 - 2014-02-25 14:29:17 UTC
Initial thoughts are good. But, the web range bonus on the Cruor will be nice, but it doesn't synergize well with the neut/nos bonus, in that the range on the neut/nos will be ~1/2 of that of the web, making the web bonus moot once you have to get in range to take advantage of the other bonus on the hull. Has this been considered?

Also, the Sansha changes look great, and it'll really provide some dynamic play through clever use of ABs, small sigs and fun speeds. +1 there.

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Jenn aSide
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#42 - 2014-02-25 14:29:48 UTC
Zomgnomnom wrote:
This is the first time I have read a balance pass or a ship release in a long time and didn't instantly face palm. I hope the cruiser and battleship changes are this well thought through as well.

This Cool
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#43 - 2014-02-25 14:29:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Cruor looks sweet.

At first I was vastly underwhelmed by the direction for the Succubus. Then I read it again and realized the previous damage bonus had been rolled into the current role bonus (dps preserved) and a new per level AB velocity bonus added. So double velocity under AB (F-U webs) and same dps. This looks good.

I also like that a high slot got moved to a low. But the huge (-17MW really?) nerf to PG makes it pretty much mandatory to use it for a mAPC in order to use the utility high slot. Making it hard to fit the 10MN AB are we? ;)

Lady Ayeipsia
#44 - 2014-02-25 14:30:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Ayeipsia
Um... Why are they reducing one of the best functions of the worm? The ship can function as frigate support fielding 2 light missile launchers and a full flight of armor or shield rep drones. Your natural caldari resist means you can save tank slots for support and be a useful ship. Plus you can drop a flight of light drones to aid in dps.

The new worm... You take a great support ship and turn it into a glorified frig brawler. You take a ship that could snipe with a lone bouncer, then switch to warriors for close and gimp it. This isn't a balance, it's an attempt to render a ship absolutely useless save for brawling. Why, just to find a new niche for a ship that was already a versatile drone bunny?

Sorry, I think the worm needs major revision. In the least, the bonuses should aid the worm as a drone support ship. Give a bonus to repping and ewar drones instead of just damage. Hell, this could even give gurista a special niche as the only race where ewar drones are good. 2 bonus webbing drones could actually slow a target and not face a stacking penalty that renders the 4th and 5th drones useless.

So sorry, the worm rebalance is the worst thoughtout idea. I have loved all the rebalance work so far, but this just feels like the indy nerf where you were all tired, focused on a limited function, and did not realize the alternative uses of a ship. Instead, you create a nerf in the guise of a boost that renders a niche ship to a piece of junk. Spread the bonus to ewar and logi drones and then there may be some hope. Otherwise, why ever fly a worm when a tristan can do better for cheaper?
Maximus Andendare
Rote Kapelle
#45 - 2014-02-25 14:30:53 UTC
The new Gurista bonus is nice, but I don't see the why? question answered. As in why would I use it over an Ishkur (and presumably an Ishtar/Domi)? Why use two strong drones vs five "enhanced" ones. I don't think the tracking/range bonuses on them will be overshadowed by stronger hp/damage ones.

Maybe we should give Guristas a bonus to ewar drones instead?

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#46 - 2014-02-25 14:31:54 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Harvey James wrote:

- 300% seems a little high perhaps some comparison too 5 50% bonused drones would help here to clarify its usefulness
-i like the missile damage bonus .. my concern is how much dps comes from both sources maybe some stats here please?
- also still has 10 slots ? drone boats -1 slot should apply here

5 drones with 50% bonus = 7.5 effective drones
2 drones with 300% bonus = 8 effective drones

mm.. im still not convinced by the bonus it seems it could be a little OP .. will the gila be bonused for heavies or medium drones??

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

North Wind Local no. 612
#47 - 2014-02-25 14:32:02 UTC
These changes look decent so far, but I confess I'm a little disappointed that you're not taking this opportunity to balance the available racial blends -- we still have two Gal/Min and zero Cal/Min. Of course it's not necessarily mandatory to always have every combination represented, but it does feel like a missed opportunity.
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#48 - 2014-02-25 14:32:11 UTC
I think these changes look good. My only reservation is the afterburner theme for Sansha ships. In my experience, nobody uses afterburners outside of PvE.

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

LT Alter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2014-02-25 14:32:16 UTC
Where it comes to the serpentis faction I believe the bonus should stay and I'm happy to hear that it is. The reason being while it may be considered an OP bonus at times, it is one of the few bonuses that doesn't really scale well into larger fleets. The vindicator and the vigilant are one of those few parts of eve gameplay that remain best used in medium sized engagement and help the smaller gangs fight the big gangs.

If you don't get what I mean by that, the fact is at the large combat scale these faction bs just aren't as popular because of their restricted range for dmg application and on the low range of the webs, making it largely ineffective for use in the larger gangs, while in smaller gangs that remain very compact and efficient they become key role ships that help them immensely.
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#50 - 2014-02-25 14:32:26 UTC
I don't usually fly pirate frigates. The two that are effective - Dramiel and DD, tend to be kiters which is not my play style. They also tend to make people run more then fight in FW. I have to say though that the Succubus and Cruor look very interesting. I know that the Worm got a nice DPS an fitting grid boost- but it really looks like you are running out of ideas for drone ships and I find myself rolling my eyes.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#51 - 2014-02-25 14:33:32 UTC
also any chance of reducing prices on faction ships in general? paying 50 mil plus for a frig seems excessive

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

The Scope
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2014-02-25 14:34:15 UTC
apparently :math: is hard
LT Alter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2014-02-25 14:37:34 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
I think these changes look good. My only reservation is the afterburner theme for Sansha ships. In my experience, nobody uses afterburners outside of PvE.

Afterburners have some great uses in PvP. For instance the old Armor Hac fleets which relied on low sig to survive, and also now that fact remains. Also the 100mn Afterburners on cruiser ships to allow for very fast speeds that can't be stopped by a scram. The afterburner bonus on frigates will be incredibly helpful in this platform and will result in some interesting aspects and fits.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
#54 - 2014-02-25 14:40:07 UTC
Sansha: Sounds cool

Blood Raiders: Sounds good. Proposed wording: "Nosferatus drain capacitor from targets with less capacitor than you"

Guristas: Sounds interesting, although Im not entirely sure if 2 highly bonused drones is better than 5 moderately bonused drones. It makes it easier for people who want to kill them, but have low locked targets or w/e. That said, the worm seems pretty OP atm, with 8 equivalent drones, a tank bonus, another 100 dps in rocks AND a large speed boost relative to now. That puts it at 316 dps, unheated, while having a big tank (for a frigate)

Serp: I disagree on the web strength bonus. 1 90% web is equal to 5 normal webs. 2 90% webs is unmatched by any number of normal webs. Simply put, the bonus description (50% stronger) is NOT what the bonus does at all (between 5 and infinity times stronger). I would nerf the web strength to 75%, and then give the line a set of application bonuses (tracking and falloff for all of them). We had a massive thread on there discussing 90% web bonuses. Simply put, 90% webs allow you to hit a maximally sig tanked interceptor with large guns, even assuming perfect piloting from the interceptor. Its a broken bonus.

The dd could also use more lock range.

Angel: Yeah, they are fine.

Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#55 - 2014-02-25 14:41:54 UTC
Guys worm needs more lock range, drones are 60 km control range and worm can't even get 40 km.

It wouldn't be a game changer.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Hope Alar
Blue Tridents
#56 - 2014-02-25 14:42:02 UTC
I like the sansha pass. I am on the fence about the cruor pass. It seems a bit odd to just invite an older mechanic to use on those ships. It does make some interesting ideas for a fit though....(triple/dual rep with 2 nos?). I like the web range on the blood raiders though. I guess the guristas changes are ok, but I don't fly them at all.
Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#57 - 2014-02-25 14:43:29 UTC
My only two issues are the disparity between web range bonus and neut/nos strength bonus on the Blood ships.

I feel that these should be the same bonus. Either strength or range. Not either or but you guys might be doing that on purpose.

My other issue is the fact that an AB speed bonus on a ship more or less welds and AB to the ship. Especially ships that are supposed to be shield tankers as dual prop shield fits are difficult to do. The bonus is a strong one though. I just don't see the point in fitting a MWD to a sansha ship anymore. hhhmmmmmm. Also, give us True Sansha afterburners to match the ships.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
#58 - 2014-02-25 14:43:45 UTC
Also I think the curor and succubus really dont need fitting nerfs.
Mr Doctor
Sex Machineguns
#59 - 2014-02-25 14:45:46 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Guys worm needs more lock range, drones are 60 km control range and worm can't even get 40 km.

It wouldn't be a game changer.

As is true with many ships..... if you want to kite that far out, sacrifice something to increase lock range.
Hoplite Brigade
#60 - 2014-02-25 14:49:43 UTC
OMG finally! So excited!

I must admit that I cannot comment at this time on specific stats b/c I haven't patched in the new stats to eft.

However, I will comment on the general direction for these ships:

Props for using afterburners as a theme for this race, I like the unique idea. Honestly, I'm not sure where the Phant and Succ need to go and I don't have any revolutionary ideas. Be sure to give them an agility buff and tracking buff to make use of those ABs.

I practically drooled when I read what you had in store. IMO the bhaal is the most powerful ship in the game for <10 man combat. Giving it the "old neuts" would make it even more... awesome! As for how this will affect the ash, I actually like the ash in it's current state. It's not as underpowered as you think. However this ship too will benefit from the "old neuts" as I often ask my augs to cap transfer the ash because making it stable with sufficient tank is impossible. Simply adding the "old neuts" to the current ash will be a sufficient buff because you won't need the remote cap. Any1 else that thinks it would need any more is blind. The webbing bonus switching to range? heh, you know how 90% webs break dread combat on the small scale. For this class I don't think it would harm them much. Making the switch to range bonus is a good move.

I kinda scratched my head at this one. Many people think Guristas ships should jam, but we all know how much you hate ECM. Idk y reducing the number of drones but giving them effectively the same effectiveness would change things much, unless you want to stealth nerf all drone hp so that the gruistas drones would be more resilient to smartbombs. Damage type change is pretty uninteresting.

This class is fine as it is. You saw how hard it was to try to change them. I foresee large community backlash if you do, but sometimes things need to be changed so dread blapping is not so broken.

People think the cyna needs a nerf. I disagree because any joe can take an 800 plate thorax with a nano in the low and slingshot the crap out of it. What I'm saying is that it does not need a nerf because you balanced other things around it. Honestly, the cyna isn't "worth it" to me anymore because of this, but maybe I'm not seeing something. The dram and the mach: They are good where they are for the same reason. The frig overhaul and Marauder rebalance really put these ships near the same level, and i feel comfortable with where they are now.

I want to see logi appear on killmails! (by just repping)  See CSM "reasonable things"