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Loot Spew 4 Months Later

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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#301 - 2014-02-24 16:04:10 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
I am just working on removing the scatter containers and re balancing the loot tables. As I said in my previous post I do not control feature priority :) I just have some time between tasks (a few days) and I am using it for some quality of life improvements for the exploration sites.
Understandable. What is the best way to go about getting the attention of the senior producers to sway them in their decision making. Not for me mind you, because with all the bile and hate that I've spewed at CCP over the years it is unlikely that I could influence them. But what would be your advice for the more level-headed and diplomatic players?
Ghat Ashour
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#302 - 2014-02-24 16:09:44 UTC
Removing scatter containers is a welcome improvement. Thanks!

Does re-balancing loot tables include looking at the value of data/relic sites between regions? It seems that sites in one region are vastly more valuable than in other regions, at least with regard to relic sites and salvage value.

Good luck!
Sheena Tzash
Doomheim
#303 - 2014-02-24 16:17:34 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:

I am just working on removing the scatter containers and re balancing the loot tables. As I said in my previous post I do not control feature priority :) I just have some time between tasks (a few days) and I am using it for some quality of life improvements for the exploration sites.


As someone who used to explore before and found the new loot spew mechanics a really kick in the nuts simply because of the negative possibility space issue it created for players who felt like they had worked hard, exposed themselves into dangerous space, did the hack and end up with nothing but trash at the end of it.

So just having the spew mechanic removed will be a huge improvement for me personally but also to other explorers and people who want to blow up people like me ;)

As for the loot tables I think its a tough one because you can't gauge the system based on its sec status as a 0.4 system close to high sec can be more dangerous than a 0.1 system because of the increased number of players wanting to kill high sec bears giving low sec a shot.

I think a successful hack needs to yield something good and of value, no trash on any hack as again you're just screwing people up and it makes you wonder why someone would store trash in an encrypted container anyways?

Some other ideas:

1) Multiple levels of hack

The more hacks you do the better the loot you get. For the best loot you need to hack multiple times and increase your exposure time.

2) Different rewards

Don't always drop plain old loot - maybe include co ords to another site in another system with the reward in that (after another hack maybe) like a treasure hunt.

The loot could also be something intel that could be sold to an NPC for a fixed value (like a mission reward) so that you can control the base line value of exploration.

The intel could also be used for yourself to open a mission that you can do yourself (which overall is worth more) or sell on the open market.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#304 - 2014-02-24 16:49:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Turelus wrote:

I still feel that Ghost Sites would make more sense requiring probes as these are meant to be "super secret hidden sites" yet everyone in a system knows they're there.
We're also at the point where everyone is just tanking them and there is no danger left in them any more, if CCP wants to keep the "danger" in these sites they might want to improve the damage done or have it random damage types thus being untankable.


The danger is from them not requiring scanning. The fact that they are visible to all, and running them itself is a quick in-and-out activity is the core of their flavor. You're asking for something completely different rather than any small adjustment.

Regarding data and relic sites:

  • the idea that they would promote collaborative gameplay was either a complete red-herring or entirely misguided, the fact that we used cargo scanners to identify and get the best loot while staying solo is a good thing. I would like cargo scanner functionality should be preserved, even if it won't be useful any longer to identify which scatter containers to scoop. Giving the explorer the decision of what to hack and what to skip is a meaningful one. Not everyone will make the same decision in every situation.

  • in relation to the above, sites that have half the cans opened and the rest ignored need to once again despawn properly. Since odyssey they have not been doing so. If a red comes in local, you're faced with a decision to keep hacking at risk to yourself, vs cloaking up and losing the whole site. That's an interesting decision, despite the latter result being frustrating.

  • relic sites are fine and plenty lucrative. Especially because the value of the whole site is often concentrated in a few cans. Rig BPCs are very good if you get the right kind, as you have a material advantage over the invention market.

  • data sites are low value for a few reasons. Datacores are low-value. Skillbooks are low value. Interface bpcs are low value. Nearly all module bpcs (not faction pos mods) are very low value. The reliable source of income here is decryptors, which tend to be evenly distributed amongst the cans. This means hacking all the cans for at most a few mil per can, and very often less than 1m per can because of crappy augmentation decryptors. Maybe these can be buffed so that more inventors choose them.

  • Keep in mind that removing loot spew will make people more willing to hack cans with a perceived low value.

  • I see the argument for making interfaces consumable, but its a non-trivial change to make. Reducing the drop rate of these useless bpcs by about 95% would at least save us having to look at them (a source of rage and frustration).

  • Perhaps an isk faucet should be added by adding npc buy orders for trash items. This would provide a baseline isk value that is insulated against oversupply of other loot. It also means a choice of cargospace vs isk. It doesn't need to be significant. Maybe the mods can be changed to something meriting npc buy orders for lore reasons. Ghost site values are propped up through npc buy orders for CRTs.

  • As most datacores are obtained through means other than exploration, buffing the number of datacores in exploration sites will increase the value of the sites without significantly depressing prices. It will also further reduce R&D income and make them less attractive in the FW LP store. These are all positive outcomes. This would also make cargospace a more important consideration for explo.

  • Many people claim Odyssey ruined exploration because it made it too easy and reduced loot value. Do not listen to these people. They would choose terrible gameplay every time if it meant 350m c-type MSBs were a reality again. CCP devs should focus on good gameplay first and balancing rewards second.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Vartan Sarkisian
Phoenix Connection
Lack of Judgement.
#305 - 2014-02-24 17:57:29 UTC
I found the minigame and the spew very frustrating, I think I tried it about 20 odd times back when it first came in game then have not done it since.
Newh
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#306 - 2014-02-24 18:09:15 UTC
This mechanic honestly feels more like a punishment. perhaps we can get use this mechanic just for that, if you succeed in the hack you get your loot normally but if you fail it will spew out and give you a 2nd chance at getting the loot.

While I do understand that the mechanic was a way to allow for group exploration I think it ultimately failed, I mean have you ever heard of anyone looking for an exploration group?


Personally the following is a list of reasons that I do not like the mechanic.

#1: it is not fun (I do not enjoy it)
#2: It breaks exploration on slow connections (the containers still show up but when you try to loot them you sometimes get the error that the object does not exist)
#3: If you are zoomed in enough the smoke upon release lags the system (even while using a stupidly good computer).
Albert Spear
Non scholae sed vitae
#307 - 2014-02-24 18:30:55 UTC
CCP Affinity -

First let me say thank you for taking your down time to work on this. I and I think many people appreciate it.

Second getting rid of the loot spew is wonderful, us old folks with slow reflexes really appreciate it.

Third fixing the loot tables is awesome. I would hope that the variety of what shows up (from really bad booby prizes - like carbon to really neat BPC's) can have much more variety. I would love it if I ran a site 20 times without seeing the same set of loot.

Even more I would love it if 9 out of 10 loot cans are full of garbage, but the 10th is worth massive isk in comparison.

Setting the loot tables to give a really, really stellar payout from time to time makes running the sites more fun and competitive. You don't know what the loot will end up being and you then have to hunt for the gem.

To me this is the essence of exploration. In most cases you come up with nothing special, but once in a while you make a fortune, which matches the real world of exploration (e.g. oil, gold, etc. here on Earth).

For most people exploration in Low Sec is actually the most dangerous, since so much of Nulsec is owned and managed by the big blocks. So if it were up to me - I would make the payouts in LowSec worth the most - but that is just my opinion.

Right now my mates would rather run L4 missions or Mine, than do exploration. I hope the table fix will change that.
Black Canary Jnr
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#308 - 2014-02-24 22:04:54 UTC
I think that the removal of loot spew is good for the gas sites. Killing rats, then hacking, then missing out the loot is frustrating, especially when relic sites are pooping out a reliable 40-50 mil per a pop in null and the gas sites can be so iffy on what drops. I once did a site and there was 1 standard BPC, everything else was trash.

And i think that CCP need to nerf null sec exploration if they are removing the spew mechanics or actually introduce a challenge. It's stupidly easy isk and the isk/time ratio is broken good. Pre-odessy exploration was a pain in the arse, you had to kill rats, then 'hack', i did not experience null and low sec exploration pre odessy because the bar for entry was having a combat fit scanning ship and i was scared shitless of low and null sec. Post-odessy everyone explores and there is no difference between Null/Low/High sec exploration in terms of risk. The only risk, if you are flying a covert ops/ cloaky T1 scan frig (lets face if, that's all you need ATM), is if someone is waiting in a site ( very very very rare), or you do not click d-scan for like 2 minutes, and that's if someone is in local. Introduce a barrier to this stupid exploration so that everyone and their dog can't come to null, relatively risk free, and make off with 100's of millions of isk. Make null sec mean something in terms of danger and don't rely entirely on players to be that danger, because that never works.
Circumstantial Evidence
#309 - 2014-02-25 00:00:23 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Affinity wrote:

I have already said I will not be reducing the loot :) if anything we are looking to increase the quality of the loot.
I respectfully ask you to reconsider this decision. The tables were increased when Odyssey deployed to promote team work and the potential loss of loot for a solo explorer.
The player base was able to adapt fairly well and data and relic sites remained a solo activity for the most part and players were able to get the loot they were after still.
The increased loot tables and the massive increase of data and relic hackers caused the value of the loot to pummit. This has also caused a secondary effect of damaging the combat site loot values, the a lot of players got tired of the loot spew and the low rewards for data/relic sites, due to the market crash, and moved on to combat sites causing a similar effect.
Agree with this. Odyssey is a small victim of its own success. I say "small victim" b/c players are adjusting to the new market values, they are stabilizing, many more players are able to try out T2 rigs and inventors can afford to use decryptors on every invention job.

Like many said when the feature was being tested, I don't like loot spew because it seems like a punishment for successful completion of the puzzle.

Loot amount per site was designed with a solo player in mind. Loot amount was increased to compensate for spew cans that solo players would miss, and so many who can bring an Alt with them are scooping just about all of it, that account holder takes home more loot items per site than pre-Odyssey.

If scatter cans are replaced by a single can, loot amount per site has to be decreased back to pre-Odyssey levels. If loot amount per site is not changed, players who don't have alts to take to these sites will thank you, for "leveling the playing field" and market values will go down a bit more.
Floyd Perdoo
#310 - 2014-02-25 05:32:10 UTC
Did you ever consider removing the scanability of the cans? It seems to me that it was meant to be a mechanic for the enterprising people to work the sites, but given that people already noticed you can do this on the test server and made 'guides' how to pick your loot on day one after release ... it became standard procedure. it turned into a requirement, noone did those sites as a group activity after a couple weeks.

Good luck balancing the quality and quantity of loot. With how easy sites are now in kspace (you could argue that doing anything but relics anywhere but in nullsec is stupid) and how many people do them now (yay i can take a frigate to go 'explore'), i am having a hard time seeing how you could do it. I think it would be best not to look on the loot from this side, but rather look at the consuming side. Data sites are, unless you find that tower bpc, quite worthless now, because the demand for the stuff that drops is mostly not there.

Make having good probe skills mean something again. Put sites all over the system, they don't need to be hugging around celestials. Remove sigs in scan window without having an actual means to probe. I am sure there's more that could be done.
Salvos Rhoska
#311 - 2014-02-25 08:51:12 UTC
Angel H-sec Relics are utterly crap.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#312 - 2014-02-25 11:53:35 UTC
A quick idea:

Loot spew was meant to make Exploration more interesting and fun. Obviously it does not have this effect.
I propose an alternate idea to make exploration more challenging and fun.

1. You hide multiple data nodes on the hacking board. Each data node represents one of the items from the loot table. Maybe these nodes are very weak or have no defense at all to keep balance.
2. You introduce a master security node.
A player now has to kill the master node to get to the loot (which will be in a regular can).
But you only get that part of the loot which you "collected" during the hacking attempt.
Maybe the collected things would shortly flash up like they do now when taking one of the loot spew cans.

This idea would make partial success possible: maybe I get to hack the master node and finish the board, but I did not uncover ALL of the loot - some remains hidden behind some defensive node I could not kill.

Skill levels would make more of a difference. Maybe a medium skill is sufficient to win the hacking game e.g. in LowSec, but only a high skill level (+implants + ship bonus) ensures I get to clean every board completely and always get all loot.

Also if I find the master node and COULD kill it, it would be cool if I had to make a decision: I have not yet found all the loot that I spotted by cargo scanning before, so do I go on, maybe risking to uncover a support node that reinforces the master node and I get nothing at all OR do I "take the money and run".
(or maybe the suspicious neuts in local have more time to get me if I stay those few extra seconds)
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#313 - 2014-02-25 12:05:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Olmops
Oh, and I want a booby-trap node!
The GHOST sites are really much fun, because there IS a risk running them.

How about this:
a booby-trap node is a well-armed node (like 20/30, 20/50, 20/70 for green, yellow, red boards) and if you stop hacking while it is revealed, there will be an explosion and/or a pirate response team as in ghost sites.

If you kill the node while you are still in the hacking game, nothing happens. Only if you finish the board/try to warp away/get out of Analyzer range, then ... .BOOM!

So if you are in the hacking game and you know there is something juicy in the can from cargo scan and there is already one of these nodes revealed... will you kill it to prevent damage to your ship?( losing precious virus health) Or will you ignore it and go on searching for the loot?
Maybe you have tanked yor ship so it will survive one explosion. But there is a chance you suddenly find ANOTHER booby-trap.

And maybe then you get to a situation like:
OK. Forget about the loot. I need to find another utility subsystem NOW, or I am dead.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#314 - 2014-02-25 13:25:43 UTC
Quote:
A player now has to kill the master node to get to the loot (which will be in a regular can).
But you only get that part of the loot which you "collected" during the hacking attempt.
Maybe the collected things would shortly flash up like they do now when taking one of the loot spew cans.


So space pac-man? Do you want to trivialize it even more?

Quote:
Oh, and I want a booby-trap node!
The GHOST sites are really much fun, because there IS a risk running them.


Space roullete? How ghost sites is even an exploration? Its anomaly that uses hacking device. Weird hybrid.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#315 - 2014-02-25 13:44:13 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Quote:
A player now has to kill the master node to get to the loot (which will be in a regular can).
But you only get that part of the loot which you "collected" during the hacking attempt.
Maybe the collected things would shortly flash up like they do now when taking one of the loot spew cans.


So space pac-man? Do you want to trivialize it even more?

Quote:
Oh, and I want a booby-trap node!
The GHOST sites are really much fun, because there IS a risk running them.


Space roullete? How ghost sites is even an exploration? Its anomaly that uses hacking device. Weird hybrid.


Exploration is about mystery and discoveries through skill AND luck.

What is it other than roulette if a system contains a certain anomaly or not? Or that a certain anomaly contains a can with a jackpot item or not?

I really love exploration for the excitement about a treasure. If I scan lets say HiSec sites in Gallente space and I have probed a Serpentis Phi Outpost - it's always a race: is there already someone in the site? Will I clear it before someone else takes notice or will I be disturbed? And then: what is the loot? Crap or jackpot?
In each step (except for the loot roll which is random) I can encance my chances through skill, but never so much there is no risk left.

For current relic/data sites it is similar.
If we take out the loot spew (because of annoying gameplay), there will be one potentially exciting step less (will I pick the right cans? - clever choice and clicking skill improves odds, but you can still be unlucky).
My proposal aims on getting something else in that does the same but is more fun to play.
Therefore the additional element of complexity, risk and decision-making.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#316 - 2014-02-25 14:05:15 UTC
Quote:
If I scan lets say HiSec sites in Gallente space and I have probed a Serpentis Phi Outpost - it's always a race: is there already someone in the site? Will I clear it before someone else takes notice or will I be disturbed? And then: what is the loot? Crap or jackpot?


There you go. Probing. There's nothing to explore with anoms. Its already scanned, it even had name on it, so i exactly know what to expect when i see it. Just warp to it. It has to do with exploration as much as nestor without cloak.

Quote:
Therefore the additional element of complexity, risk and decision-making.


I want that too, but i not the way you post it.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
DSpite Culhach
#317 - 2014-02-25 16:10:52 UTC
If the sites are meant to provide more player vs player content, would it not make sense to try and keep as there as long as possible?

If the mechanic only covers enough things to do for say 5 minutes, that is all we will spend there - scan best can, hack, scoop, leave - if the reward amount was based on willingness to spend time and go through a larger pool of objects and even have the olde RNG get some rolls - we would hang around longer.

Although what bothers me is that technically low sec sites should pay better, shouldn't they? Hacking sites in sov space in dead ends does not seems as dangerous as lowsec. I have no idea what im doing though X

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#318 - 2014-02-25 16:46:06 UTC
Quote:
If the sites are meant to provide more player vs player content, would it not make sense to try and keep as there as long as possible?


Remove cargo scanning opportunity. You will have to hack all cans at site without knowing whats inside. Game of luck as Edward Olmops wrote.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Lido Seahawk
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#319 - 2014-02-25 23:13:53 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
We are removing it, hopefully for Summer.



\o/

May I have your stuff?
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#320 - 2014-02-26 10:18:34 UTC
Batelle wrote:

  • Many people claim Odyssey ruined exploration because it made it too easy and reduced loot value. Do not listen to these people. They would choose terrible gameplay every time if it meant 350m c-type MSBs were a reality again. CCP devs should focus on good gameplay first and balancing rewards second.


    • do not listen to ppl who get litterally shitted upon when odyssey hit, removing a big part of their gameplay, screwing over months of training, with no compensation, and who ended up for most of them unsubbing accounts thus reducing CCP's income.....

    that is a very nice suggestion.

    eve as always been about specialisation, you had to be trained, with the correct ships, and pulling out good skill to actually run the valuable sites, throught probing, moving in said area with a ship able to run them.

    since odyssey, a 1 week old is now able to do what required month of training to do: this is dumbing down the game, and screwing up the ppl who invested time, SP, thus hard earned money in the game.

    i did had 2 account apart from my main, used to run lowsec explo in different area of the game, each of those with 2-3 month worth of SP just for this purpose.

    the day odyssey hit, they were made useless, no compensation, i feel robbed of 6month of subs just because CCP decided so....

    on the terrible gameplay, imao it the loot bukkake + the minigame which are terrible gameplay, the serve no purpose, they do have no place in eve, and regarding the sensor overlay, it's just a pain in the rear that it autoscan even when turned OFF.

    ffs, when i move goods using my freighter or do a trip to a hub, i don't give a **** about wich sigs are around, hence why i turned the thing OFF, yet it still pop up every single time, like a kind reminder "hey, look at the awesome crap there is around"

    bad design is bad

    if it is so great gameplay, let's add the minigame to mining, and let's watch what happen