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Loot Spew 4 Months Later

First post
Author
Salvos Rhoska
#281 - 2014-02-24 10:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
CCP Affinity wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Tzar Sinak wrote:
I would respectfully suggest that we learn more about what the new loot tables become before panicking.

Its not likely the loot tables are going to be more profitable.
Its also likely that the quality of loot will drop, alongside the decreased effort of doing the sites.


The quality of the loot will not drop, this is not a nerf to exploration :) I will post more details when I can.


With all due respect, removing the loot spew IS a nerf to Exploration :)
Looking forward to see the details.
CCP Affinity
C C P
C C P Alliance
#282 - 2014-02-24 10:44:37 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
CCP Affinity wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Tzar Sinak wrote:
I would respectfully suggest that we learn more about what the new loot tables become before panicking.

Its not likely the loot tables are going to be more profitable.
Its also likely that the quality of loot will drop, alongside the decreased effort of doing the sites.


The quality of the loot will not drop, this is not a nerf to exploration :) I will post more details when I can.


With all due respect, removing the loot spew IS a nerf to Exploration :)
Looking forward to see the details.


I would be very interested to know how you have come to this conclusion :)

♥ CCP Affinity ♥

Follow me on Twitter

Game Designer for EVE Online

Team Astro Sparkle

seth Hendar
I love you miners
#283 - 2014-02-24 10:48:32 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
easy, you first nerfed it with odyssey due to silly game + loot bukkake. and since it was easier, you reduced loot.

now you make it easier again, so you will "adjust loot accordingly" => we all know this means "nerf loot table".

what happen when you nerf loot on an already bad loot acivity => you burry it.

if you fail to see this, you are either delusional, or worse, alter a game mechanic you do not understand / play with at all

so yeah, final nail on exploration's coffin

suggestion for CCP: it is a mandatory prereq for one dev to actually play the part of the game they are supposed to work on when it comes to game mechanics, this silly "i've no idea what i'm doing but i'll do it anyway" shall stop
Daishi Kurita wrote:
Speaking on loot. PLEASE start having Data and Ship Interfaces be destroyed. Ship interfaces for example used to be the main reason to run hacking sites; after years of them dropping and not a single one being destroyed they are literally worthless. I don't even know why they are in the loot table anymore.

This suggestion was made by many players YEARS ago, that CCP has done nothing to such an obvious problem makes me think you guys don't play your own game.

Hacking loot has been so terrible for so long it blows my mind. Why even adjust the mechanics if no one is going to run the sites. Personally I see data sites building up in 0.0 with no one touching them for days. I have run dozens of the best sites and most of the time I receive less then 5 million total loot. So now I just skip them like everyone else.

same in low, the only reason we ever get in those, is when we spot someone probing, with the hop he will go in so we can kill him.

the few time we had someone going in those, the scanned it then bugged out without even running it EVERY SINGLE TIME because it' wotrhless.

see, when odyssey hit, i, like many many others, siad that CCP just killed explo.

look wherre we are now, the old explorer like myself stopped doing it, canceled accounts accordingly, and the "new" explorer CCP bragged about just doesn't run them anymore, cause they are worthless, and there are less and less ppl even bothering warping in data / relics..... congrats CCP, you killed what used to be a great part of the game Cry.....
CCP Affinity
C C P
C C P Alliance
#284 - 2014-02-24 10:55:34 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
easy, you first nerfed it with odyssey due to silly game + loot bukkake. and since it was easier, you reduced loot.

now you make it easier again, so you will "adjust loot accordingly" => we all know this means "nerf loot table".

what happen when you nerf loot on an already bad loot acivity => you burry it.

if you fail to see this, you are either delusional, or worse, alter a game mechanic you do not understand / play with at all

so yeah, final nail on exploration's coffin
Daishi Kurita wrote:
Speaking on loot. PLEASE start having Data and Ship Interfaces be destroyed. Ship interfaces for example used to be the main reason to run hacking sites; after years of them dropping and not a single one being destroyed they are literally worthless. I don't even know why they are in the loot table anymore.

This suggestion was made by many players YEARS ago, that CCP has done nothing to such an obvious problem makes me think you guys don't play your own game.

Hacking loot has been so terrible for so long it blows my mind. Why even adjust the mechanics if no one is going to run the sites. Personally I see data sites building up in 0.0 with no one touching them for days. I have run dozens of the best sites and most of the time I receive less then 5 million total loot. So now I just skip them like everyone else.

same in low, the only reason we ever get in those, is when we spot someone probing, with the hop he will go in so we can kill him.

the few time we had someone going in those, the scanned it then bugged out without even running it EVERY SINGLE TIME because it' wotrhless.

see, when odyssey hit, i, like many many others, siad that CCP just killed explo.

look wherre we are now, the old explorer like myself stopped doing it, canceled accounts accordingly, and the "new" explorer CCP bragged about just doesn't run them anymore, cause they are worthless, and there are less and less ppl even bothering warping in data / relics..... congrats CCP, you killed what used to be a great part of the game Cry.....


I have already said I will not be reducing the loot :) if anything we are looking to increase the quality of the loot.

♥ CCP Affinity ♥

Follow me on Twitter

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Team Astro Sparkle

Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#285 - 2014-02-24 11:03:47 UTC
Quote:
I have already said I will not be reducing the loot :) if anything we are looking to increase the quality of the loot.


would you personally prefer giving out more of the good stuff ? or would you rather introduce new stuff ? completely unrelated note: i would love to be able to buy standings with NPC corps in some way or another by trading in items ...
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#286 - 2014-02-24 11:54:58 UTC
Quote:
I have already said I will not be reducing the loot :) if anything we are looking to increase the quality of the loot.


Can you consider making probing more difficult?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Salvos Rhoska
#287 - 2014-02-24 11:58:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
CCP Affinity wrote:
I would be very interested to know how you have come to this conclusion :)


By removing the loot spew, it makes the sites easier and faster to do, ergo: they are nerfed :)

CCP Affinity wrote:

I have already said I will not be reducing the loot :) if anything we are looking to increase the quality of the loot.


So they will be easier to do, and have better quality loot.

I guess that is good for the people who where incapable of doing them, since now not only can they do them easily, but they also get better loot for even less effort! :)

Sorry btw, I won't bribe you with beer as some others have :)

On the specific conjecture and point, of loot spew originally being intended to incentivise group exploration I think it is difficult to make it so that it is good for "2 or more explorers". All that this can offer 2 hackers, is that they can together probe and farm the sites faster. That is the "benefit".

However, what about a combat and explorer combo? Or a miner and explorer combo? Surely these are more interesting avenues to incentivise group exploration? All 2 explorers can offer each other, is faster probing and faster site completion for split profits (so thenet total is the same in terms of time and profits, as if you did them solo).

TLDR: Duo exploration nets you no more profit, and slim to little time savings, than solo exploration. Nor does duo exploration make you much safer to PvP, because neither ship is particularly PvP efficient. Basically the only advantage is safety in numbers,mso that you can gtfo while your buddy gets pwned, and two sets of eyes eatching dscan rather than one. Pretty slim benefit.
Seven Koskanaiken
Fancypants Inc
Pandemic Horde
#288 - 2014-02-24 12:11:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
AIUI the intention of the spew was to encourage group play, expect it did the opposite for economic reasons I will not explain again since I already did it hundred times already.

You can still encourage team hacking with the mini game, maybe pooling virus strength from two ships, so two people with noob skills can win the red core games by working together on it, something like that.

Also, data sites need a buff, SERIOUSLY.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#289 - 2014-02-24 13:45:48 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
CCP Affinity wrote:


I have already said I will not be reducing the loot :) if anything we are looking to increase the quality of the loot.

yes, and what will happen?

you make site easier, and reduce the loot table (via value or item number) => direct nerf

or, as you claim,

you make site easier, and increase the loot (via number or quality) => ppl will run them like rabbits on steroids for a month thus crashing the market price => indirect nerf

tldr; it's a nerf

the problem is making the useless sites easier, not artificially making them temporary more valuable.

bring them back to where they were, they were balanced, giving good value loot to ppl who actually spent time training and put the effort in skill and tactics / fitting to be able to run them (speaking low / null here, high was always crap anyway), this was balanced.

with odyssey, you basically told those ppl who invested hard time to GTFO, wich they did, and broke the exploration.

you were warned, and yet, here we are, months later, and you are iterating in the wrong direction, expecting to fix a broken thing you broke in the first place, by breaking it even more.....

"i have a dream, were CCP devs actually play the game".... will probably reamains a dream tho Cry

thanks for letting us know you miss eve understanding 101
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#290 - 2014-02-24 14:21:48 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
.....

With all due respect, removing the loot spew IS a nerf to Exploration :)
Looking forward to see the details.

I would be very interested to know how you have come to this conclusion :)

I think it comes from two places.
First in this specific case making it easier to get the loot will increase the amount on the market and depress prices even more. Yes, you have already covered that, but that brings up the second point.
CCP once said they wanted exploration to pay better than other forms of PvE. Presumably because it involves more interaction with other players. What that means is in high sec I should be able to make more isk per hour exploring than what I would get hopping into a blinged out 'snake and ripping through L4 missions. CCP said this, then changed exploration to be one of the more worthless activities.
Your credibility is very low here. When you do give details, please listen to the feedback. In general, things go bad as soon as someone in CCP writes "with all due respect, we think it will not work out that way".

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

seth Hendar
I love you miners
#291 - 2014-02-24 14:27:45 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Vincent Athena wrote:

I think it comes from two places.
First in this specific case making it easier to get the loot will increase the amount on the market and depress prices even more. Yes, you have already covered that, but that brings up the second point.
CCP once said they wanted exploration to pay better than other forms of PvE. Presumably because it involves more interaction with other players. What that means is in high sec I should be able to make more isk per hour exploring than what I would get hopping into a blinged out 'snake and ripping through L4 missions. CCP said this, then changed exploration to be one of the more worthless activities.
Your credibility is very low here. When you do give details, please listen to the feedback. In general, things go bad as soon as someone in CCP writes "with all due respect, we think it will not work out that way".


every single time i saw this written in a CCP dev's post, it was followed or following one or more sentences showing how little of the topic said dev understood, and the ingame iteration proved how right the players were........ please CCP Affinity, prove me wrong......
CCP Affinity
C C P
C C P Alliance
#292 - 2014-02-24 14:33:18 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP Affinity wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
.....

With all due respect, removing the loot spew IS a nerf to Exploration :)
Looking forward to see the details.

I would be very interested to know how you have come to this conclusion :)

I think it comes from two places.
First in this specific case making it easier to get the loot will increase the amount on the market and depress prices even more. Yes, you have already covered that, but that brings up the second point.
CCP once said they wanted exploration to pay better than other forms of PvE. Presumably because it involves more interaction with other players. What that means is in high sec I should be able to make more isk per hour exploring than what I would get hopping into a blinged out 'snake and ripping through L4 missions. CCP said this, then changed exploration to be one of the more worthless activities.
Your credibility is very low here. When you do give details, please listen to the feedback. In general, things go bad as soon as someone in CCP writes "with all due respect, we think it will not work out that way".


I have personally never said any of those things :) and I wouldn't be posting in this thread if I didn't care about the feedback and was not listening to it. I am taking a look at the exploration scattering and loot tables that were done by another developer.

I agree that exploration needs an overhaul and some serious dev love (as does quite a few PvE systems), but I do not control priorities, that rests with senior producers. I have a few days down time between projects right now, so I am going to look into doing what I can to reduce pain points.

However, threads like this are super useful when they remain clear and concise. This thread is about loot spew and how that impacts the exploration experience... it starts to become less useful when it is used as an avenue to vent frustrations at all past CCP decisions.

♥ CCP Affinity ♥

Follow me on Twitter

Game Designer for EVE Online

Team Astro Sparkle

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#293 - 2014-02-24 14:41:02 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:

I have already said I will not be reducing the loot :) if anything we are looking to increase the quality of the loot.

I respectfully ask you to reconsider this decision. The tables were increased when Odyssey deployed to promote team work and the potential loss of loot for a solo explorer.
The player base was able to adapt fairly well and data and relic sites remained a solo activity for the most part and players were able to get the loot they were after still.
The increased loot tables and the massive increase of data and relic hackers caused the value of the loot to pummit. This has also caused a secondary effect of damaging the combat site loot values, the a lot of players got tired of the loot spew and the low rewards for data/relic sites, due to the market crash, and moved on to combat sites causing a similar effect.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Cypher Decypher
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#294 - 2014-02-24 14:41:04 UTC
There seems to be a lot of conjecture and general whingeing going on here, while CCP Affinity is doing her best to give us clues without (understandably) making commitments.


Here are the facts/clues she's been kind enough to give us:

Loot spewing is going to be removed ("hopefully for the Summer")
Loot tables will be "balanced accordingly".
Loot "in general" will be looked at.
"The quality of the loot will not drop, this is not a nerf to exploration"
"I have already said I will not be reducing the loot :) if anything we are looking to increase the quality of the loot. "

So be grateful something is going to be done, and start making positive suggestions about HOW it can be done in a balanced fashion. Because between initial probe launch to loot-pickup, there are numerous processes which can be tweaked in order not to re-re-rebreak exploration.

I, for one, am all for slightly increasing the difficulty of probing. Just as an opener..

Cheers Affinity :)

Turelus
Utassi Security
Second State
#295 - 2014-02-24 14:42:46 UTC
CCP Affinity will the entire of exploration be getting a once over or just the scatter cans mechanic?

I still feel that Ghost Sites would make more sense requiring probes as these are meant to be "super secret hidden sites" yet everyone in a system knows they're there.
We're also at the point where everyone is just tanking them and there is no danger left in them any more, if CCP wants to keep the "danger" in these sites they might want to improve the damage done or have it random damage types thus being untankable.

Grav sites could really do with going back to bring scanned sites (at least from my experience) because it removed the "prospecting" part of finding them as well as removing another layer of defence for NullSec miners.
Anomalies Grav Sites + Interceptors = terrible for NullSec mining.
It might be worth looking at the distribution of these sites as well to try and keep ore values in check.

On topic however the removal of scatter cans is something I can fully support, while I like that CCP want to encourage players to work together attempting to add mechanics which force it really feels against the nature of EVE.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security

CCP Affinity
C C P
C C P Alliance
#296 - 2014-02-24 14:44:55 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Affinity
Turelus wrote:
CCP Affinity will the entire of exploration be getting a once over or just the scatter cans mechanic?

I still feel that Ghost Sites would make more sense requiring probes as these are meant to be "super secret hidden sites" yet everyone in a system knows they're there.
We're also at the point where everyone is just tanking them and there is no danger left in them any more, if CCP wants to keep the "danger" in these sites they might want to improve the damage done or have it random damage types thus being untankable.

Grav sites could really do with going back to bring scanned sites (at least from my experience) because it removed the "prospecting" part of finding them as well as removing another layer of defence for NullSec miners.
Anomalies Grav Sites + Interceptors = terrible for NullSec mining.
It might be worth looking at the distribution of these sites as well to try and keep ore values in check.

On topic however the removal of scatter cans is something I can fully support, while I like that CCP want to encourage players to work together attempting to add mechanics which force it really feels against the nature of EVE.


I am just working on removing the scatter containers and re balancing the loot tables. As I said in my previous post I do not control feature priority :) I just have some time between tasks (a few days) and I am using it for some quality of life improvements for the exploration sites.

♥ CCP Affinity ♥

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Team Astro Sparkle

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#297 - 2014-02-24 15:51:39 UTC
Quote:
I am just working on removing the scatter containers and re balancing the loot tables. As I said in my previous post I do not control feature priority :) I just have some time between tasks (a few days) and I am using it for some quality of life improvements for the exploration sites.


Its never ending job without changing exploration as whole. Level of explorers will increse after you remove scatter containers so loot will be worthless again. Wish you good luck, you'll need it.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#298 - 2014-02-24 15:55:10 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Valencia Mariana wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
CCP Affinity wrote:
We are removing it, hopefully for Summer.
Please say you're not trolling us with this post. The hacking game was a great addition; the loot spew was terrible. It's awesome to hear that it's being taken care of.


Your joking right? The mini-game was the worst thing to happen to PvE since launch. I have nightmares and serious RSI in my right arm and a nervous twitch...

Please remove the minigame too!

I like the minigame.
Especially since I got really good at it.


This. Seriously, there is a benefit to training those level 5s and getting T2 modules, rigs, and covops 5. I still ocassionally miss nulsec containers. I missed a losec container once.

Once.

Loot spew was annoying because despite being successful at the mini-game, I could still get trash because I picked the wrong spew can out of the 20 or so that get ejected.


http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Valencia Mariana
Perkone
#299 - 2014-02-24 15:56:00 UTC
hydraSlav wrote:
I love the mini-game, it's awesome (loot-spew not).

Anyone that hates on the mini-games is either a botter, AFKer, or a nutcase who "plays" EvE for work, rather than fun


Out of interest do you live in a wormhole? When you scan out a static you may have 10-30 cans to hack. Server banks for example we dont even bother doing all but one of the cans.

I think there are two points of view here: Wormholers and casual k-space explorers.
DSpite Culhach
#300 - 2014-02-24 15:56:58 UTC
For the record, I don't mind the loot dispersion per se. It's the level of fidgeting that drives me insane. It's in 3d, objects get in the way when you ship spin, you need a rather precise mouse pointing to click things, and there does not seem to be - that I can see - any instant feedback you clicked something until the beam lashes out.

If the system had a whole bunch of visuals and overlays like in combat - which would be overkill for this, but you get the point - that people could shift-click-queue, I don't think it would have been such an issue, but try to imagine if the loot dispersion mechanic was the combat one - single lock until killed, have to click on a moving target to actually target etc etc, that's what feels like a handful to manage.

I always had a similar issue with running a salvaging destroyer or a Noctis. I swear it takes more clicking to salvage everything then it did killing it, considering I often put more then one salvager to work per wreck AFTER a tractor beam click, but gave guns or drones a single click instruction to kill it.

I don't mind some level of micromanagement, but there's a breaking point past which I end up on the news for running around at night barking at strangers.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.