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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#181 - 2011-11-24 17:28:51 UTC
CCP Optimal wrote:
This is a great point. Would most people agree that reducing the draggable area for a window to the window header would eliminate the need for locking? I assume the same would be done for collapsing as it doesn't make a great deal of sense that double clicking the window directly collapses it and probably causes a lot of accidents.

NO!
If I pin window - I want it PINNED FOR THE HELL OF IT. No discussions allowed. It must stay where I have it pinned, under any circumstances.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
#182 - 2011-11-24 17:37:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Cloora
CCP Optimal wrote:
Obviously, we jumped the gun on this one, we're sorry and we'll fix it. I would although like to point out that we don't remove features like this just because we're evil but rather in an attempt to simplify code and user experience. If we manage to identify and remove a feature that nobody uses, that means simpler code, simpler user experience, fewer bugs and more time to implement new and cool stuff. In this case, we obviously misdiagnosed. Also, we are actually quite evil coming to think of it.


Unfortunatly when you guys do this it complicates our gaming experiance greatly.

Quote:

It's no secret that our window system is quite arcane and we would really like to pull it further into the 21st century. Features like pinning, collapsing and stacking is something that you won't find in many modern GUI systems, but obviously we can't go ahead and remove stuff without providing better means of doing the things that you need to do. By looking at the root of problems, it is rather often possible to find a simpler, more elegant solution to problems that doesn't require users to dig up a setting in the system menu.


The biggest thing is just when I dock and undock my overview and station services window always moves on Sisi right now. That is HIGHLY annoying when i undock into a group of flashy pirates camping a station.

Quote:

In the case of locking windows when pinned, I take it that the biggest reason for the usage relates to lightning fast mouse maneuvering and button pressing going wrong and the usual suspects being the overview, selected item and drone windows, and probably any other combat related window. I would be surprised if many people lock their fitting window (or do they?). Maybe the solution could be as simple as making windows, that have been snapped to a screen edge, or other windows, harder to accidentally move, so that the window wouldn't start moving unless you had dragged it, say 5-10 pixels? Maybe the windows in question shouldn't be windows at all, but rather fixed to the right hand side of the screen (similar to the the ship HUD)?


I lock my Selected items window, Overview, Drone window, Fleet window and my local and other chat windows. Here is a screen shot of how I have MY UI arranged. My overview setup

Everything else I leave unlocked because I only use it temporarily and move it around.

Quote:

For pinning (just the transparency change bit) we might be able to remove that option altogether, make the active window background fade in (look like an unpinned window) and all other windows fade out (look like pinned windows). I have actually played around with this a bit and it reduces the visual noise of the UI quite a bit, drawing the attention of your eyes to the active window while keeping other windows well readable and the 3d scene visible, so it looks promising.


Might be I would like to try it on Sisi and I'm sure you guys will get lots of feedback. Smile

Quote:

Collapsing windows has always seemed like a weird little thing to me, and for some reason it always reminds me of Windows 3.11, which is less than great. Do people use this feature? I know that some people use TAB to collapse/expand all windows, but wouldn't it make more sense to minimize/maximize all windows instead, while allowing you to exclude some windows (such as the overview)?


I collapse windows all the time when I am doing market and fittings. Useful feature.

http://www.altaholics.blogspot.com
Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
#183 - 2011-11-24 17:38:47 UTC
Quote:

What about features like SHIFT-dragging windows to drag an entire snap-group of windows ... is this the first time you ever heard of this or is it a keeper?


I can't see myself using this but extra features that I don't use i won't mind either.

Quote:

Are there other weird little things in the window system that nobody uses that we could probably axe without much rage?


Honestly right now I like it and think it works well. As long as the windows stay put. I multi-box with Synergy so exact placement is very important.

Quote:
All feedback and thoughts about these thoughts and how we could improve and streamline our window system, without ruining EVE, would be greatly appreciated. Sadly, we can't improve things without changing them and people (including me) hate it when the UI they've grown used to changes, but given that the changes are actually good, the hatred quickly wears off. The more vocal you are, the less likely we are to screw up like this again!


I don't mind changes when they are useful and help. Removing pinned windows staying put degrades the usefulness of the GUI

http://www.altaholics.blogspot.com
Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
#184 - 2011-11-24 17:39:01 UTC
Double post I was ganked. LOL

http://www.altaholics.blogspot.com
Oreamnos Amric
New Jovian Exploration Department
New Jovian Collective
#185 - 2011-11-24 17:46:38 UTC
CCP Optimal wrote:
Collapsing windows has always seemed like a weird little thing to me, and for some reason it always reminds me of Windows 3.11, which is less than great. Do people use this feature? I know that some people use TAB to collapse/expand all windows, but wouldn't it make more sense to minimize/maximize all windows instead, while allowing you to exclude some windows (such as the overview)?

I tend to collapse windows which are transiently up. The best example I can think of is for PI. I don't want to reopen the Science and Industry window after each planet so I collapse it, manage my PI, un-collapse it and select the next planet. I never collapse windows normally present in my UI (Local, Overview, Scanner) and I had no idea of TAB doing that.

CCP Optimal wrote:
What about features like SHIFT-dragging windows to drag an entire snap-group of windows ... is this the first time you ever heard of this or is it a keeper?

Never heard of this one. Just tried it but can't think when I'd ever use it.

CCP Optimal wrote:
This is a great point. Would most people agree that reducing the draggable area for a window to the window header would eliminate the need for locking?

This would reduce the possibility of accidentally dragging the window, but not eliminate it completely - this is a regression. At the moment with the pin button pressed and the option set correctly there is no way to move the window by mistake.

CCP Optimal wrote:
I assume the same would be done for collapsing as it doesn't make a great deal of sense that double clicking the window directly collapses it and probably causes a lot of accidents.

This makes sense. In fact I had no idea that double-clicking elsewhere could cause the window to collapse.

Please be careful when making such changes to the UI, you will be surprised at what people use and find essential to their experience.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#186 - 2011-11-24 18:15:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tonto Auri
CCP Optimal wrote:
Obviously, we jumped the gun on this one, we're sorry and we'll fix it. I would although like to point out that we don't remove features like this just because we're evil but rather in an attempt to simplify code and user experience.

Why not simplify code and user experience even further? Make all windows static...
People don't like their positions? No big deal, they'll get used to it.

Quote:
If we manage to identify and remove a feature that nobody uses, that means simpler code, simpler user experience, fewer bugs and more time to implement new and cool stuff. In this case, we obviously misdiagnosed. Also, we are actually quite evil coming to think of it.

Your problem is not in presence of an "unused" features, but in absence of a solid Window Management code. Much like Redstone logic in Minecraft, your WM works on artifacts and assumptions.
Just one example: try to stick two windows in the same corner (i.e.: Peoples&Places and Journal into lower-right corner) and then close both and open them. Ooopsss, they got stacke one over another. Why? Noone told them to do so. It's just your WM assumed that windows should not overlap.

Quote:
It's no secret that our window system is quite arcane and we would really like to pull it further into the 21st century. Features like pinning, collapsing and stacking is something that you won't find in many modern GUI systems

"Many modern GUI" systems not expecting you to work with desktop, when you have other windows opened.
And rarely expect you to work with more than one open window. Fail analogy, try harder.

Quote:
but obviously we can't go ahead and remove stuff without providing better means of doing the things that you need to do. By looking at the root of problems, it is rather often possible to find a simpler, more elegant solution to problems that doesn't require users to dig up a setting in the system menu.

Then remove them from settings, make them apparent and readily available.

Quote:
In the case of locking windows when pinned, I take it that the biggest reason for the usage relates to lightning fast mouse maneuvering and button pressing going wrong and the usual suspects being the overview, selected item and drone windows, and probably any other combat related window. I would be surprised if many people lock their fitting window (or do they?).

Hint: Chat windows. Plural "windows", as EVE chat system is more ancient, than EVE itself, and does not allow to stream multiple chat channels into same scrollback.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#187 - 2011-11-24 18:17:37 UTC
Quote:
Maybe the solution could be as simple as making windows, that have been snapped to a screen edge, or other windows, harder to accidentally move

No. It's not a solution, it'a a crutch to the faulty UI, that you'd have to maintain instead of a clear option.

Quote:
so that the window wouldn't start moving unless you had dragged it, say 5-10 pixels? Maybe the windows in question shouldn't be windows at all, but rather fixed to the right hand side of the screen (similar to the the ship HUD)?


You want to revert to the overview of EVE-2006 ? I don't think you're serious.

Quote:
For pinning (just the transparency change bit) we might be able to remove that option altogether, make the active window background fade in (look like an unpinned window) and all other windows fade out (look like pinned windows). I have actually played around with this a bit and it reduces the visual noise of the UI quite a bit, drawing the attention of your eyes to the active window while keeping other windows well readable and the 3d scene visible, so it looks promising.

Please, no. This is the most annoying "feature" in the recent "UI" trend.

Quote:
Collapsing windows has always seemed like a weird little thing to me, and for some reason it always reminds me of Windows 3.11, which is less than great.

Mac users would disagree with you.
Quote:
Do people use this feature? I know that some people use TAB to collapse/expand all windows, but wouldn't it make more sense to minimize/maximize all windows instead, while allowing you to exclude some windows (such as the overview)?

Total rollup (the Tab key) - sometimes, when I want to quickly clear the screen to work with probes.
"Minimize all" would be an acceptable alternative, if worked the same way as rollup - to restore previously-minimized windows.
And when you're at it, do something to NOT redraw window contents while minimizin-restoring. No other WM does that. It only slow down the animation, cause unnecessary load and introduce text rendering artifacts.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#188 - 2011-11-24 18:18:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tonto Auri
Quote:
What about features like SHIFT-dragging windows to drag an entire snap-group of windows ... is this the first time you ever heard of this or is it a keeper?

The problem is not with dragging, but with snap group itself. It's not apparent to anyone if this is group or just separate windows laid that way. The difference could be as small as just one pixel.
Compare it to the similar functionality in GIMP... Can you clearly tell that this is a group?

Quote:
Are there other weird little things in the window system that nobody uses that we could probably axe without much rage?

You could axe whole "windows system" and rewrite it from scratch. Because, as you've said already, "it's hard to manage". Make it as manageable as you like, without trying to not cause outrage here or there.

Quote:
All feedback and thoughts about these thoughts and how we could improve and streamline our window system, without ruining EVE, would be greatly appreciated. Sadly, we can't improve things without changing them and people (including me) hate it when the UI they've grown used to changes, but given that the changes are actually good, the hatred quickly wears off. The more vocal you are, the less likely we are to screw up like this again!

Hope you already learned a lesson, that EVERY change to client usability, no matter how small YOU deem it, must be put to test server before any other changes, instead of trying to sneak it under release date.
You got a good 10-pages thread on test server forum. I don't want to think about the length of it after release...

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#189 - 2011-11-24 18:28:54 UTC
CCP Orion wrote:
regrettably it's too late in the day to safely put it back before release day, but the option to lock window position will be reintroduced asap in a point release.


I wish to hell you guys would have left the UI alone, and waited until the Carbon UI wasn't such a piece of ****. I still miss my Avatar :(

http://imgur.com/whDTM

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Caneb
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#190 - 2011-11-24 18:29:58 UTC
Why isn't locked-when-pinned the default behavior? If you think it's a confusing option, just make it default to behave like everyone expects it to behave.
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#191 - 2011-11-24 18:45:22 UTC
Two step wrote:
My view is that you ought to stick to standards more. I suspect that 90% of the folks that lock windows do so because for some reason, you allow people to move windows by dragging their backgrounds. This is not "normal" behavior, and is annoying.

That's only part of the problem.
The other part is that they are trying hard to reproduce "normal" WM behavior, failing to understand that game UI has little in common to the "normal" UI.
Tell me, how many times you hit resize grip when trying to close window?

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#192 - 2011-11-24 18:50:08 UTC
Caneb wrote:
Why isn't locked-when-pinned the default behavior? If you think it's a confusing option, just make it default to behave like everyone expects it to behave.

I tell you why - because they made it confusing.
Originally, pinning was working exactly that way - "pinned+transparent". REALLY transparent, I mean. You won't find this clarity of transparency anywhere in modern EVE.
Then they decided that they need a new UI, totally windowed and such. And suddenly, they decided, that apparent pinning is a bad thing... and made it an option... DISABLED by default.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#193 - 2011-11-24 19:00:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Morwen Lagann
CCP Orion wrote:
regrettably it's too late in the day to safely put it back before release day, but the option to lock window position will be reintroduced asap in a point release.


It apparently only took a single patch to remove it. You've got a week to go. Revert the code if it's that big a hassle. And do not try to tell us that you can't make changes right up until the last minute - I have personal experience that says otherwise with the Incursion expansion, where things were literally changed at the last minute.

CCP Optimal wrote:
In the case of locking windows when pinned, I take it that the biggest reason for the usage relates to lightning fast mouse maneuvering and button pressing going wrong and the usual suspects being the overview, selected item and drone windows, and probably any other combat related window.


Generally, I don't want my UI moving around "by accident". Your UI code already does a ****** job of keeping things in the same place just when docking and undocking, frequently reordering my windows at any opportunity. If I pin a window, I want it to stay EXACTLY where I told it to, period. That the pinning feature makes windows transparent is a bonus for me - it just means I can see **** behind them.

Here is a picture of my UI a few months ago (I don't have any more recent ones available from my usual machine at the moment). That setup is pretty much identical to how I have my UI set up for FiS, except there are a total of 4 chat stacks, arranged in a 2x2 grid along the bottom. The right-hand pair of them are minimized when I undock so I have access to the HUD buttons.

If I need to have it up and open a lot when I'm undocked, it is given a location on my screen and pinned, without exception. If it is something I might need to check occasionally (mail, market, P&P, fitting) it is not pinned.

Quote:
For pinning (just the transparency change bit) we might be able to remove that option altogether, make the active window background fade in (look like an unpinned window) and all other windows fade out (look like pinned windows). I have actually played around with this a bit and it reduces the visual noise of the UI quite a bit, drawing the attention of your eyes to the active window while keeping other windows well readable and the 3d scene visible, so it looks promising.


Ew. No. EVE's UI is ******** levels of inconsistent already. This would make it worse.

Collapsing windows: I used to use it more, but I haven't had a need for it lately. I would rather it be kept because it's pretty clear that a lot of people do use it.

Quote:
What about features like SHIFT-dragging windows to drag an entire snap-group of windows ... is this the first time you ever heard of this or is it a keeper?


Er... what exactly do you mean by that? Shift-dragging moves, say, for that picture I posted, those two adjacent chat stacks, or the entire column of windows on the right, even if I only click on one while doing it? If that's the case, then that's the first time I've heard of it, and it's a keeper. I don't know how often I'd use it, but that's something I can see myself using.

Quote:
Would most people agree that reducing the draggable area for a window to the window header would eliminate the need for locking?


No. I would not. That treats a symptom, not the cause. Locking eliminates random window movement. Period. Under ALL CIRCUMSTANCES. That treats the cause.

Return pin/locking as it exists now. There is no reason to remove it at all, and the fact that you believed nobody used it shows that there are still a number of people within the company that are ridiculously out of touch with the playerbase.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#194 - 2011-11-24 19:26:59 UTC

CCP Optimal wrote:
Features like pinning, collapsing and stacking is something that you won't find in many modern GUI systems, but obviously we can't go ahead and remove stuff without providing better means of doing the things that you need to do. By looking at the root of problems, it is rather often possible to find a simpler, more elegant solution to problems that doesn't require users to dig up a setting in the system menu.


simpler and elegant can often be a synonym for less-useful.

Quote:
In the case of locking windows when pinned, I take it that the biggest reason for the usage relates to lightning fast mouse maneuvering and button pressing going wrong and the usual suspects being the overview, selected item and drone windows, and probably any other combat related window. I would be surprised if many people lock their fitting window (or do they?).


There are definitely some windows that scream "lock me" more than others, but so many different folks have so many different preferences... the current method allows them all to be happy.

Quote:
For pinning (just the transparency change bit) we might be able to remove that option altogether, make the active window background fade in (look like an unpinned window) and all other windows fade out (look like pinned windows).


So are you saying that all windows would be transparent except for the 1 that is focused? NO NO please NO. Yea, I'm shouting. Many of the folks that are attracted to Eve's particular gameplay are by nature OCD. Take away our control and we're sad pandas.

Quote:
Collapsing windows has always seemed like a weird little thing to me, and for some reason it always reminds me of Windows 3.11, which is less than great. Do people use this feature?


Collapsing is a WONDERFUL way to keep 50 million windows open, check them periodically, and keep them out of the way the rest of the time. Chat is a majority of this but not all.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Bemoliph Ashriden
#195 - 2011-11-24 19:51:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Bemoliph Ashriden
CCP Optimal wrote:
By looking at the root of problems, it is rather often possible to find a simpler, more elegant solution to problems that doesn't require users to dig up a setting in the system menu.


Good options like this should be enabled by default. Move Last Speaker to Top, Show Session Change Timer, and Show Window Identification are also good candidates for default enabling.

CCP Optimal wrote:
I would be surprised if many people lock their fitting window (or do they?).


Considering you actually can't pin the fitting window... =P That's one of the main problems with the interface in general, too much inconsistency in functionality and styling. This is especially true for newer stuff, like PI windows.

CCP Optimal wrote:
What about features like SHIFT-dragging windows to drag an entire snap-group of windows ... is this the first time you ever heard of this or is it a keeper?


Occasionally use it, but you ideally rearrange the interface less and less as times goes on.

CCP Optimal wrote:
All feedback and thoughts about these thoughts and how we could improve and streamline our window system, without ruining EVE, would be greatly appreciated.


Get rid of all the focus-locking elements. Seriously. Anything that stops you from doing stuff just because it decided to pop up needs to die in a fire. These are typically notification popups like the kind used for downtime warnings, but also include some windows used in the petition system and in the new bug reporter.
ChaseTheLasers
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#196 - 2011-11-24 20:52:51 UTC  |  Edited by: ChaseTheLasers
CCP Optimal wrote:

Collapsing windows has always seemed like a weird little thing to me, and for some reason it always reminds me of Windows 3.11, which is less than great. Do people use this feature? I know that some people use TAB to collapse/expand all windows, but wouldn't it make more sense to minimize/maximize all windows instead, while allowing you to exclude some windows (such as the overview)?


I think sadly this is an area that you're quickly going to find out there is no answer to. As someone who has worked with UI design before, I can assure you that almost any change you do is going to send someone, somewhere into a rage.

I remember taking over a program that someone had written a few years back with a horrid UI (and horrid backend code). I started by rewriting the UI to make more logical sense; OK buttons in the place that you'd expect them with other standard windows, CTRL+P printing as opposed to CTRL+Shift+P, and having tab move between boxes as opposed to the arrows which could now be used to move to a different character in a text box (you had to use the mouse and manually click where you wanted it before).

The backlash was insane. I was called everything you can imagine for weeks on end, with several employees trying to get me sacked and general all around office hate.

Microsoft come across the same issue when moving to their new ribbon interface in '07. Adding more and more options to menus was crazy, and Microsoft this to their credit did an excellent job with the ribbon. It didn't stop people whining over it though as opposed to spending less than a day retraining for something that has infinitely better work-flow.

I think the window collapsing point shows this nicely. You consider it weird, I consider it normal Smile
I grew up with a rather unknown (outside the UK) OS called RISCOS, where this was the standard behaviour. It's also fairly standard in some Linux distros.

I use it *all* the time. My UI setup requires it in fact. I will have windows collapsed directly 'on top' of each other.
These are normally things I wouldn't have open at the same time - so the D-scanner and people & places for example. I just double click the top of the current one, then the same for the window right next to it and I have the window I want ready to use.

The single biggest key I can offer to good UI design is allow the user to do things with as *little* mouse movement as possible with the *minimum* number of clicks. UI collapsing allows this currently.

If I wanted to do it without collapsing, I would have to do significantly longer mouse movements across the screen (the full span, as the windows are on the right), and a few more manual clicks to close and open windows manually. The other option is keyboard shortcuts, but like the ribbon in Word/Excel, the collapsing allows features to be quickly accessed without hunting through menus on the neocom as they are already open.

Chase
Logan LaMort
Screaming Hayabusa
#197 - 2011-11-24 21:49:36 UTC
CCP Optimal wrote:
Two step wrote:
My view is that you ought to stick to standards more. I suspect that 90% of the folks that lock windows do so because for some reason, you allow people to move windows by dragging their backgrounds. This is not "normal" behavior, and is annoying.

The only time I use the tab key to collapse all windows is when the overview is bugged and I want a quick way to refresh it. This has been mostly fixed recently.

My #1 windowing UI complaint is that you guys don't make the enter key always map to OK in dialogs. This is especially visible in the industry UI, where after picking a manufacturing location, enter will re-pick the location, rather than hit the OK button. You appear to have enter activating the focused control, not the default button for a dialog, and it is annoying.


This is a great point. Would most people agree that reducing the draggable area for a window to the window header would eliminate the need for locking? I assume the same would be done for collapsing as it doesn't make a great deal of sense that double clicking the window directly collapses it and probably causes a lot of accidents.

We strive to have ENTER work as confirm for all dialogs. If some of them fail to follow that pattern, I would call that a defect.


Reducing the draggable area is fine but what about resizing on the window borders? For me resizing a window by accident is just as bad as dragging, except it's more likely to happen.
For example I know that because of the exact size of my overview, it displays a maximum of 30 objects before the scroll bar appears. So if I just have enemy ships on my overview and half a scroll bar I know that there's around 60 ships on there. Accidentally resizing the overview screws this up though, especially I don't notice it.

Okay it's not the biggest problem in the world but lock windows has always reassured me that no matter how crazy I get with the mouse, my overview will never change.
Mograthi
#198 - 2011-11-24 23:54:12 UTC
Just want to say dont do the silly window with focus is transparent and the others are not thing. I set my windows as transparent so I can SEE through them when i am in space.
Thaylon Sen
The Boondock Saints
#199 - 2011-11-25 01:12:52 UTC
Really pissed this has been removed, keep accidentally moving windows about now.
Adrodius
Old Ass Gamers
#200 - 2011-11-25 02:37:17 UTC
There'll be many people who would like to have this feature in eve online, but myself and others really don't care about this feature. It's not a big deal.