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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

First post First post First post
Author
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#861 - 2014-01-16 00:23:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
CCP SoniClover wrote:

Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.
...
This is subjective. Some will feel the risk is not worth the gain, some will feel the gain is worth the risk.

No it's not. You just admitted, in this post you've deliberately balanced it so it's not worth the risk (because you're assuming it will lead to a reduction in isk overall). So no, the risk isn't worth the reward and you know it.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Blackfin Arbosa
Blackstone Holdings
Sev3rance
#862 - 2014-01-16 00:23:22 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
With the coming point release EVE Online: Rubicon 1.1 we will add more deployable structures:

  • Two new siphon variants, one to more efficiently stealing refined components and one to steal polymers
  • One unit to be deployable in nullsec called Encounter Surveillance System (ESS)


The bounties in Nullsec are lowered by 5%. An active ESS lowers the bounty payout even more down to a total of -20%. Interacting then with the ESS gives you back between 20% and 25% so that you end up with 100% to 105% bounty of the current bounty value. Interacting with the ESS will allow you then to cash in the collected bounties in form of tags which can be sold to the Empires. You can choose to take all the bounties for yourself or share the bounties amongst every contributor.

Please read the latest blog by CCP SoniClover which contains all the details about those new structures!


ESS is dumb just don't
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#863 - 2014-01-16 00:24:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Hatsumi Kobayashi
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.


Are you suggesting that EyjoG's assessment ("Sinks and faucets are fairly balanced
right now, with a bit more faucet than sink to allow for economic growth") that can be found in the CSM minutes is wrong?

edit: beaten to the economic point by weaselior, how unsurprising :(

No sig.

Omanth Bathana
Doomheim
#864 - 2014-01-16 00:25:00 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:

Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.


Your own economist says otherwise.

Quote:
The next graph showed the money supply. Overall, the money supply is evening out--changes to systems have reduced the ISK supply, so average ISK in active wallets is stable as of November 2012 and the maximum amount may even be peaking. While Mike points out that the leveling-out at the top of the graph is very short, Dr. EyjoG responded that it was the first plateau visible at all. Sinks and faucets are fairly balanced right now, with a bit more faucet than sink to allow for economic growth.


http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/CSM8_August_Summit_Minutes.pdf

This explanation doesn't hold water and you've published something to that effect.


Love that quality communication between the CSM, Developers, and CCP's analysts. Roll
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#865 - 2014-01-16 00:25:49 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Turelus wrote:


* Why the 5% loss in bounties instead of just making the module appealing on its own?


Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.


Then just straight nerf the bounties.

This is a poorly designed mechanic, period.

It's contrived and exceedingly confusing. It's not the kind of change that is going to add new players to the game in the long term or make existing players enjoy the game more.

Interacting with a nonsensical system wide ratting bank account via a deployable is so ridiculously weird that I just can't even fathom how this made it so far.

It's probably the single worst example of game design I have seen come from CCP in a long time.
Razzor Death
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#866 - 2014-01-16 00:25:49 UTC
Querns wrote:

Your definition of income and CCP's definition differ, FYI.

You consider any increase in your wallet to be income. CCP defines income as "activities which increase the total amount of isk in the game." Highsec missions and incursions derive a nontrivial amount of their reward in LP, which is designed to reduce total isk in the game. Nullsec combat anomalies directly create isk. CCP is right to be wary of the total number of "isk faucets" which exist in the game, and while I don't necessarily know if tuning nullsec combat anomaly bounties in such a way is the right decision, it's certainly one effective way of going about it.


A valid point, call me old fashioned but I would much rather CCP went to all the Regions filled with nothing but 24/7 botting renter trash and started dealing with them before making judgments on how much isk nullsec is generating.
Dibblerette
Solitude-Industries
Quantum Inquisition
#867 - 2014-01-16 00:26:22 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:

Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.



Are you serious?

You have Faction Warfare, Incursions and L4s that are disgusting amounts of income, and you pick on null rats?
greiton starfire
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#868 - 2014-01-16 00:27:12 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
It would be nice to get some dev &/or CSM feedback on the issues brought up.

also: Why wasn't this first released in the F&I forum for feedback. Does CCP consider the proposed version a final draft?


Based on feedback, we're looking at three things:
- Time to get loot - lot of good points that the time needs to be increased
- Interceptors too good - we're looking at ways to decrease the efficiency of using an interceptor to steal
- Too effective as warp bubble - we're looking at making it less viable

Thanks for the feedback so far. Any test feedback from Sisi would also be much appreciated.



ah I get it, you only read suggestions from players who don't actually live in null sec. cause every null sec player has told you why they would never use it, and you addressed none of the concerns they have brought up.

for example,

risk far to hi for reward
adds hassle to an activity which already has more risk/ less reward than other activities with the same skill set
as it stands neut/red shows up everyone docks so no offensive use
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#869 - 2014-01-16 00:27:28 UTC
Querns wrote:
Between you, us, and N3's rental programs, we are generating trillions of isk a month in rent. Renters, in a large amount, generate that isk from ratting.


Here is a graph from fanfest 2013. http://i.imgur.com/tO8lW9C.png In March of 2013, approximately 30 trillion isk comes from "Bounty Prizes". You'll have to excuse me but this is the most recent statistic I could find.

The isk we get from renters isn't really much in the grand scheme of things. The question I have always had was, how much of these bounty prizes are coming from nullsec. Too bad no one has ever told us Sad

There is room to increase this to 33 or 35 billion (maybe even 36 or 40 billion), perhaps in order to have more fairer gameplay you have to rebalance some areas of the game which are literal isk printing factories which don't provide the risk factor that nullsec does.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#870 - 2014-01-16 00:28:11 UTC
Dibblerette wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:

Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.



Are you serious?

You have Faction Warfare, Incursions and L4s that are disgusting amounts of income, and you pick on null rats?

Yes, because that's the right place to do it.

READ THE FOLLOWING BELOW TO UNDERSTAND WHY:

Querns wrote:

Your definition of income and CCP's definition differ, FYI.

You consider any increase in your wallet to be income. CCP defines income as "activities which increase the total amount of isk in the game." Highsec missions and incursions derive a nontrivial amount of their reward in LP, which is designed to reduce total isk in the game. Nullsec combat anomalies directly create isk. CCP is right to be wary of the total number of "isk faucets" which exist in the game, and while I don't necessarily know if tuning nullsec combat anomaly bounties in such a way is the right decision, it's certainly one effective way of going about it.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Angry Mustache
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#871 - 2014-01-16 00:28:19 UTC
The Weaselior/Aryth dunktrain has no brakes

An official Member of the Goonswarm Federation Complaints Department.

Razzor Death
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#872 - 2014-01-16 00:28:35 UTC
Eve Online 2014: Yes, we made ratting more cancerous
Kais Fiddler
Perkone
Caldari State
#873 - 2014-01-16 00:30:02 UTC
Angry Mustache wrote:
The Weaselior/Aryth dunktrain has no brakes

It relies on bad posting by ccp devs, however. Which gradually will ground to a stop, sadly.
Turelus
Utassi Security
#874 - 2014-01-16 00:30:56 UTC
Dibblerette wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:

Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.



Are you serious?

You have Faction Warfare, Incursions and L4s that are disgusting amounts of income, and you pick on null rats?

All of those are also sinks due to the ISK lost when you cash out the LP, FW being a complete removal of ISK because it's all LP earns instead of ISK.
I'm not saying they don't make crazy amounts of ISK but there is a loss of pure ISK whenever LP is used, NullSec income is pure ISK with none of it being traded in.

The player may make good ISK from other players when selling LP Store items but this is just ISK moving around not the creation of it. Creation comes from Bounties, Sleeper Tags and Mission Rewards only AFAIK.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security

Fix Sov
#875 - 2014-01-16 00:31:38 UTC
Razzor Death wrote:
Eve Online 2014: Yes, we made ratting more cancerous

I didn't think this was possible.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.

greiton starfire
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#876 - 2014-01-16 00:34:27 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Lady Naween wrote:

maybe it is because I am blonde and a woman but where will the fight be?

As I outlined in my post there wont be any new fights. There MIGHT be one short structure bash, and that is it. And for what reward? None that I can see, nor can those with more math then I.

so.. can you please explain where the conflicts will be? Help us please understand your vision because I think a lot of us are missing it.

please?


If you use an ESS as a ratter your income will be higher than pre-1.1. If hostiles enter the system you have various choices in how to respond, some of them can lead to fights, it´s up to you. Don´t assume that anyone that stumbles into the system will automatically be able to steal everything, again, the likelihood of this is up to you. It´s only a nerf if you choose it to be.



IE no sandbox, use our feature no one wants or be punished. yeah this game is going in a very bad direction for me
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#877 - 2014-01-16 00:35:49 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Querns wrote:
Between you, us, and N3's rental programs, we are generating trillions of isk a month in rent. Renters, in a large amount, generate that isk from ratting.


Here is a graph from fanfest 2013. http://i.imgur.com/tO8lW9C.png In March of 2013, approximately 30 trillion isk comes from "Bounty Prizes". You'll have to excuse me but this is the most recent statistic I could find.

The isk we get from renters isn't really much in the grand scheme of things. The question I have always had was, how much of these bounty prizes are coming from nullsec. Too bad no one has ever told us Sad

There is room to increase this to 33 or 35 billion (maybe even 36 or 40 billion), perhaps in order to have more fairer gameplay you have to rebalance some areas of the game which are literal isk printing factories which don't provide the risk factor that nullsec does.

I use the rental program example as a point of reference because it represents activities which actually mint new isk from the ether, compared to LP things, whose value is primarily derived from destroying isk by converting it with the LP into items which are then sold on the market with previously-existing isk.

An example: http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=15766
A FN 10mn afterburner destroys 4 million isk for every 12,000 LP used to make it.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#878 - 2014-01-16 00:36:22 UTC
Give up guys, it's obvious that one guy has the reins on this project and that this is SonicClover's darling project, for which foul player input is not allowed to effect.

When the players from all parts of eve told Team SuperFriends a million and one times the initial proposed stats for the dscan inhibitor needed to be toned back a bit, whoever was in charge there took the advice of the people who combined play this game tens of thousands more than any dev and toned it down to a point where most people could agree on.

But when those same people look upon the ESS and declare it a poorly trainwreck, suddenly the only acceptable input is innocuous questions about market seeding and access time.

SoniClover, I guess at the end of the day, you don't have to listen to us. But in advance: We told you so.
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#879 - 2014-01-16 00:36:31 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
CCP SoniClover wrote:


Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.

Called it.Cool

Dibblerette wrote:

Are you serious?

You have Faction Warfare, Incursions and L4s that are disgusting amounts of income, and you pick on null rats?

Fac War, L4, and Incursions all come with an isk sink in the form of an LP store, which you pretty much have to use to maximize isk/hr. Incursions have also been nerfed.

Weaselior wrote:

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/CSM8_August_Summit_Minutes.pdf

This explanation doesn't hold water and you've published something to that effect.

How out of date are those minutes again?
Funless Saisima
Hole Punchers
I Could Do Better
#880 - 2014-01-16 00:37:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Funless Saisima
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Tippia wrote:
So, I'm just going to have to ask (again)…
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Based on feedback, we're looking at three things:
- Time to get loot - lot of good points that the time needs to be increased
- Interceptors too good - we're looking at ways to decrease the efficiency of using an interceptor to steal
- Too effective as warp bubble - we're looking at making it less viable
Have you looked at the reasoning for a blanket income nerf for rank-and-file null inhabitants? If you have, could you please present it for general scorn and derision critique?

The entire idea behind this addition hinges on such a nerf being at all sensible, and you have so far not managed to explain why it is. This makes the entire addition senseless as it currently stands.

Put another way: what is the underlying design goal here? What are you trying to accomplish?


I tend to avoid answering posts using inflammatory phrasing, but I actually think your signature answers your question pretty well.



There was nothing inflamatory in that post. Perhaps you should http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvM7av1o1Q&list=PL4ACF917EAB70339A