Test Server Feedback

Problem with unpinned windows wouldn't be half an issue if the god dammed windows would stay where I put them without pinning in the first place.

There is a serious bug with this feature removal:

Previously pinned, not closable chat (local, alliance, corp) windows will now stay unmovable unless you dock or do something which should not affect positioning of windows.

With closable chat windows you can just close and reopen them and you're fine.

That was before last patch so sorry if that issue is already solved, if not it will mean that you have to clear the cache after 29.11 to be able to move chat windows.

BTW: Would it be possible to actually have the capabilities to close corp / alliance / local / incursion channels ?

What a shame :(

Any time frame on this, will this just be the fabled 18 months and then forgetting everything about it still like the AF revamp?

Obviously, we jumped the gun on this one, we're sorry and we'll fix it. I would although like to point out that we don't remove features like this just because we're evil but rather in an attempt to simplify code and user experience. If we manage to identify and remove a feature that nobody uses, that means simpler code, simpler user experience, fewer bugs and more time to implement new and cool stuff. In this case, we obviously misdiagnosed. Also, we are actually quite evil coming to think of it.

It's no secret that our window system is quite arcane and we would really like to pull it further into the 21st century. Features like pinning, collapsing and stacking is something that you won't find in many modern GUI systems, but obviously we can't go ahead and remove stuff without providing better means of doing the things that you need to do. By looking at the root of problems, it is rather often possible to find a simpler, more elegant solution to problems that doesn't require users to dig up a setting in the system menu.

In the case of locking windows when pinned, I take it that the biggest reason for the usage relates to lightning fast mouse maneuvering and button pressing going wrong and the usual suspects being the overview, selected item and drone windows, and probably any other combat related window. I would be surprised if many people lock their fitting window (or do they?). Maybe the solution could be as simple as making windows, that have been snapped to a screen edge, or other windows, harder to accidentally move, so that the window wouldn't start moving unless you had dragged it, say 5-10 pixels? Maybe the windows in question shouldn't be windows at all, but rather fixed to the right hand side of the screen (similar to the the ship HUD)?

For pinning (just the transparency change bit) we might be able to remove that option altogether, make the active window background fade in (look like an unpinned window) and all other windows fade out (look like pinned windows). I have actually played around with this a bit and it reduces the visual noise of the UI quite a bit, drawing the attention of your eyes to the active window while keeping other windows well readable and the 3d scene visible, so it looks promising.

Collapsing windows has always seemed like a weird little thing to me, and for some reason it always reminds me of Windows 3.11, which is less than great. Do people use this feature? I know that some people use TAB to collapse/expand all windows, but wouldn't it make more sense to minimize/maximize all windows instead, while allowing you to exclude some windows (such as the overview)?

What about features like SHIFT-dragging windows to drag an entire snap-group of windows ... is this the first time you ever heard of this or is it a keeper?

Are there other weird little things in the window system that nobody uses that we could probably axe without much rage?

All feedback and thoughts about these thoughts and how we could improve and streamline our window system, without ruining EVE, would be greatly appreciated. Sadly, we can't improve things without changing them and people (including me) hate it when the UI they've grown used to changes, but given that the changes are actually good, the hatred quickly wears off. The more vocal you are, the less likely we are to screw up like this again!

Cool, i love it when your excellent UI jumps around my screen,,, NOT!!!!!!!!!

COME ON PEOPLE.!!!!!!!

PS: otto leading > The 80's called, they want their UI designs back.

Many thanks for listening.

It is a keeper. It behaves quite funny though, pairing stacked windows with other entirely unrelated ones (that happen to be close to the first one) and screwing up one's miserly orderly UI disposition preferences. Although behaviour is a difficult thing to change, and software behaviour has gotten more diffcult to control than human behaviour.

Good luck.!

Seriously, CCP do what you can to fix this. I too use pinned windows.

And yeah, maybe I run in with the fringe logic too, but I notice you're making erratic decisions which shake up the community in ways that do not cater to the betterment of the whole.

Regrets are on you, and perhaps if you actually had a working relationship with the community, CCP, then you could introduce some of our ideas at your next feature-programming meeting. I think we all deserve a supporting voice from you CCP, if we first of all support you every month in our own ways. Mistakes like this can be avoided, and testing could run much smoother with actual player input. Luckily this fringe of communication got noticed early enough, before the entire situation could be overlooked.

Never been a fan of transparent windows, they just make seeing the window contents difficult as is seeing anything under them... I know many people that don't like pinning their windows at all because of the transparency, so an option on this one would be much needed.

It says I can only quote 5 times in a single post, so blame your forum for some confusion below.

I think the root of the problem here is that EVE's GUI is not strictly a "windowing system" (like an OS), but a hybrid of a windowing system and a UI. And it uses windows to implement both kinds of interfaces.

When looking at this forum, say, do you really expect to be able to click on the avatar picture on the left and drag & drop it around to somewhere else? No. It's part of the UI, not a window. And EVE does not provide this ability of a UI - it makes everything a window, and we have to live with those restrictions.

The ability to "stick" a window blurs that distinction. I don't even much care about the transparency (that's nice, but not important). I care about certain elements of my UI staying where they are. The overview, target selection, etc. They are not conceptually "movable objects" all the time - the only time I want to move them is necessary when configuring my UI, but not in "normal use".

Other windows - the fitting window, market, etc. - are conceptually "windows": Things that pop up, that I move around, and that I close when I don't need them.

I also pin local, but mainly because it consumes so much space that I'd rather have it more transparent.

To the HUD question: Yes. Except you want to make a "configuration mode" where you can drag those around and place them wherever you want, and when you leave "configuration mode" they stick there. This should also apply to the HUD, locked targets, and the system / route information.

To the transparency question: Sounds ok. I can see some uses of having more windows "readable" at the same time (when transferring stuff from one to the other; say, market / orders, or for chat windows which you follow without typing in them), but that should still be workable.

Yes, regularly and rather extensively:

- I always have a Peoples & Places window open, collapsed, at the top of my screen. The "search box" and "make bookmark" buttons are too useful to have at hand, but the whole window consumes too much space to have open all the time.

- I regularly collapse / uncollapse the overview because that's the most reliable method to fix any display bugs in it, and there are plenty of those. I.e. please fix the overview first before removing that feature. ;-)

- I regularly collapse my current "working window" to be able to see something (e.g. we're on a roam and I'm handling my market orders while flying around, I "collapse" it when the scout reports hostiles incoming). I think this use can be replaced by minimizing the window, but collapsing is easier to hit than the pretty minor "minimize" icon that makes it easy to accidentally close the window at the same time.

Sure to the TAB question.

About shift-drag: I don't regularly use it, but I do use it. It's mostly the UI thing from above again: I have arranged a group of windows as my UI element of choice, and I just need to move them (or resize them) together a bit. Say, making the "selected item / overview / drones" triplet on the right a bit wider, or moving it down a bit more.

Oh, pet peeve time? :-) One recurring problem is the way stacked windows are handled. This is especially important for chat windows. When you have "too many" windows in a stack at once, it's almost impossible to read the channel names, and with more they're even replaced with a white triangle, making it impossible to follow. The solution so far is to have multiple chat windows at once, which is suboptimal.

The main proposed solution so far has been multiple tab rows on the top to fit more tabs in the same space. Another option would be to have the tabs to the left (or right) of the window to make more use of widescreen displays. Finally, some more IRC client functionality (display of channels with activity, key to cycle through "active channels", shortcuts to go to specific channels, etc.) would be really useful.

But in general, the chat window concept needs some work.