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[Rubicon 1.1] Mobile Micro Jump Unit and Mobile Scan Inhibitor

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Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#761 - 2014-01-09 18:01:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
I can see now that they are nerfed into uselessness due the outcry of the status quo and a small fraction of the playerbase.

Seemed to me that the "small" fraction was a significant fraction of this thread. Or are you just calling yourself fat?

Even if I did not like to hunt carebears I would still have pushed for the tweak Fozzie made to the MSI, because in a PvP situation, there was simply not enough cost for the huge advantage that blinding your opponent's d-scan gives you.


Yea because hitting the d-scan button and knowing everything you are up against, isn't a huge advantage.Roll
scroll back and you'll see its just you and 5 of the same people spamming the thread over and over with one-sided opinions. Most people said they liked the original idea of the MSI.

Erasmus Phoenix wrote:


+1. When the only vocal and serious support to a change is a noob corp account with zero other activity on the forums, no employment history, and a total of 17 days in the game, you know that there's something wrong with the idea.



Didn't you say something earlier about not being so ridiculous so people would take you guys seriously? I can't believe CCP actually listened to these bad ideas considering all the non-nonsensical things you say.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#762 - 2014-01-09 18:05:03 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:

scroll back and you'll see its just you and 5 of the same people spamming the thread over and over with one-sided opinions.



Let he who is without sin throw the first stone.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#763 - 2014-01-09 18:07:15 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Btw, can any FW dweller explain me why they think this still does nto help with FW issues? I ran FW for some time, but the metagame might have changed a lot...

FW is plagued with farmers who "conquer" systems by using swarms of disposable frigates fit with warp core stabilizers and cloaks. What was intended to do a "top of the hill" mechanic to encourage fights has turned into a semi-AFK farming endeavor.

On the other hand, complexes also give a great opportunity for people to lay traps for others who don't pay attention. Using cloaky drone-assist Tristans, being kite-ready in a Condor or Slicer, or even just sitting a few ships on the landing point inside the plex is a big tactical advantage.

That is where the MSI comes in. Those who attack a complex are at a disadvantage that is sort of mitigated by guessing at the defender's ship(s) from d-scan. With the MSI, a cloak/WCS farmer looks exactly like a frigate gang -- like nothing. Because people don't like to take wild chances on missing info, they will almost always avoid going in. This both reduces PvP and encourages farming, neither of which are things that FW need.

I'm not sure I buy it completely myself, especially after the changes, but that's the argument as I understand it.


A few things I think you are not considering Petrus:

1.) At 15m a pop, how many FW Farmers are going to deploy these? 5k LP for a small to 15k LP for a Large. The farmer is going to easily lose most (if not all) of the "income" they gain from farming attempting to deploy these at their plex. The risk adverse, cheep-fit plex-farming-alt-army is not going to be using these!

2.) I think the more likely situation is these will be deployed Inside the plex by pilots that want to mask the fleet concept within the plex. From my previous experiences in FW, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. I remember often watching the buildup of enemy forces on dscan specifically aimed to counter our gang inside the plex. Quite often there was routine blueball situations, or the need to employ cloaked griffins and the like to actually have a balanced fight.

Think about the cost: 100 m3, 1 minute to setup, and 15m isk means these won't be an in-every-plex situation... but much more rarely deployed when actually system contesting is happening.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#764 - 2014-01-09 18:14:45 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ok everyone, here is our first round of changes since the beginning of public feedback. These are some quite large changes but we think the end result is a much stronger design.

Mobile Micro Jump Unit

We're cutting the EHP of the structure by 80%, to 5000hp.
We're increasing the time that the MJU takes to activate to 1 minute.
We're increasing the range at which the MJU can be used to 5000m.
We're increasing the minimum range from other MJU structures to 10km.
We're disabling the ability to jump while cloaked.


Ok, these are all great changes (though perhaps a bit over the top). I've never been a fan of adding teleporting to Eve, and I doubt I'll ever be a fan of this. But I think if you're going to introduce this kind of mobile module, you may as well introduce MJDs for all ship classes.

Earlier in the thread I mentioned that the addition of this module makes us half way to something really awesome. Let me explain my thoughts on that briefly. What I'd really like to see is these modules not used for grid-fu, but instead to fling the player much further - completely off grid. I'd like to see them used to create player dungeons.

While I'm concerned with the incredible advantage that a defending group has in FW plexes, the first obvious use of these gates is to carry FW battle arenas to other areas of space. The prototype for mobile battle arenas could be expanded fairly rapidly in a number of ways:
- You could add accelerators that are restricted by ship size
- You could add accelerators that are restricted by number of uses
- You could add modules which can only be anchored in these deadspace zones that can only be anchored inside these new deadspace zones. Perhaps they could adjust the laws of physics by disabling MWDs or applying WH effects.

From there we can move into more development of the sandbox and player empowerment by allowing players to anchor structures that provide resources or defenses inside these deadspace areas. I want to be able to link deadspaces together with these gates. I want to build my own city in the stars, and I want someone to come crush it.

Quote:

Mobile Scan Inhibitor

Ships inside the area of a MSI's effect will have their own directional scanner and probe results disabled.
We're adding a minimum distance of 75km from wormholes.
We're reducing the sensor strength of the structure to 5 and increasing the signature radius to 500. Go ahead and apply as many projected ECCM to that as you want.
We're increasing the build cost to ~15m isk.
We're decreasing the structure's lifetime in space to 1 hour.
Minimum distance to another MSI is now 100km.
We're increasing the volume of the structure to 100m3.


I'm glad to see that there's some scaling back here, but the team based nature of Eve means that disabling the D-Scan of people inside the DSI is basically a token nerf. I believe that this kind of module fundamentally provides too much advantage to the people who "defending" and already on grid. I think that this kind of mobile module is too powerful and even in its nerfed state will be game breaking in wormhole space.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#765 - 2014-01-09 18:15:44 UTC

The key to balancing the MSI is for it to be a limited use item. (Same would go for decoy ships).

At 15m a pop, 1 hr duration, and requiring a little bit of setup time, I think this limit is achieved. Players won't spam them in anomalies or FW Plexes as an bearing tool because the income from these sites will be majorly hindered by their price tag. However, they are still inexpensive and unique enough to be used in traps and other unique situations. Their mere presence on dscan implies that something abnormal is going on, and you should take some precaution when engaging anything within it's zone-of-influence. This is generally a good thing, and I really challenge you to come up with a situation where this is game breaking or bad.

p.s. I think it should be bumped back to a 2 hr duration...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#766 - 2014-01-09 18:18:23 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Mobile Scan Inhibitor

Ships inside the area of a MSI's effect will have their own directional scanner and probe results disabled.
We're adding a minimum distance of 75km from wormholes.
We're reducing the sensor strength of the structure to 5 and increasing the signature radius to 500. Go ahead and apply as many projected ECCM to that as you want.
We're increasing the build cost to ~15m isk.
We're decreasing the structure's lifetime in space to 1 hour.
Minimum distance to another MSI is now 100km.
We're increasing the volume of the structure to 100m3.


I'm glad to see that there's some scaling back here, but the team based nature of Eve means that disabling the D-Scan of people inside the DSI is basically a token nerf. I believe that this kind of module fundamentally provides too much advantage to the people who "defending" and already on grid. I think that this kind of mobile module is too powerful and even in its nerfed state will be game breaking in wormhole space.

-Liang


Can you expand upon how this is game breaking in Wormhole space. I'm really trying to understand what it is "breaking", or how it will be abused.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#767 - 2014-01-09 18:23:18 UTC
It's a system that appears to be balanced around the idea of local providing partial information.
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#768 - 2014-01-09 18:23:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Liang Nuren wrote:


I'm glad to see that there's some scaling back here, but the team based nature of Eve means that disabling the D-Scan of people inside the DSI is basically a token nerf. I believe that this kind of module fundamentally provides too much advantage to the people who "defending" and already on grid. I think that this kind of mobile module is too powerful and even in its nerfed state will be game breaking in wormhole space.



Whats wrong with having a defenders advantage against aggressors who would otherwise have full intel and take no risks?



BTW, The increased cost, shortened duration and inability to tell what is going on outside the MSI kills this thing for solo PVErs who may have otherwise been emboldened to take some risks outside high sec. So I agree that it is a poorly thought out nerf, very likely pushed through by the CSMs who mostly represent themselves.

Right now aggressors have all the advantage with their ability to D scan and know exactly what is going on and therefore take little risks. The cheaper the MSI, the more plentiful, more risk there is going to be for aggressors.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#769 - 2014-01-09 18:27:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Erasmus Phoenix
An attacker takes at least some kind of risk every time they attack. I don't really see how you don't see that, unless you know perfectly well what's going on and you're just baiting for a reaction. Hint - defenders can d-scan too. Defenders can have probes out in preparation. Defenders will almost always have a chance to safe up unless they're AFK. The amount of risk an attacker takes is usually directly proportional to how much fun they end up having, so people take those risks.

you use the exact same words in every single post. An MSI in its original state wouldn't have brought people out of highsec, except maybe once or twice until they discover that they're still going to get killed if they don't pay enough attention, which many of them wouldn't out of a false sense of being untouchable.
G'host Warrot
Doomheim
#770 - 2014-01-09 18:29:25 UTC
Well this D-Scan thing is now dead for me. Thought about it for Solomining in Low-Sec.

To much cost, to low durationtime.

Well then, go ahead.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#771 - 2014-01-09 18:30:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Can you expand upon how this is game breaking in Wormhole space. I'm really trying to understand what it is "breaking", or how it will be abused.


I don't understand how this isn't obvious. In K-Space, seeing a couple of these on scan and 3000 people in local gives you a pretty good idea what you're seeing. In K-Space, seeing one of these on scan and your favorite FW enemies in local gives you a pretty good idea what you're seeing. In K-Space, these will probably work something like what Fozzie is expecting.

However, the lack of local means that life in WH space revolves entirely around scan probes and D-Scan. The DSI can (and will be) spammed to provide a too strong benefit to people bearing it up in capital escalations. Additionally, one of these appearing is pretty horrifying because unlike K-Space there's no way to know how many people are hidden, what they're flying, or who they are. And there's no way to know without warping to the structure itself and directly into the drag bubble set up by their HIC.

I don't believe that this module adds sand to the sandbox.

-Liang

Ed: Someone above put it pretty well: The module is obviously designed with the partial intel that local provides. Without that partial intel (such as in WH space), I believe it to be game breakingly powerful.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#772 - 2014-01-09 18:32:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Priestess Lin wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


I'm glad to see that there's some scaling back here, but the team based nature of Eve means that disabling the D-Scan of people inside the DSI is basically a token nerf. I believe that this kind of module fundamentally provides too much advantage to the people who "defending" and already on grid. I think that this kind of mobile module is too powerful and even in its nerfed state will be game breaking in wormhole space.



Whats wrong with having a defenders advantage against aggressors who would otherwise have full intel and take no risks?



BTW, The increased cost, shortened duration and inability to tell what is going on outside the MSI kills this thing for solo PVErs who may have otherwise been emboldened to take some risks outside high sec. So I agree that it is a poorly thought out nerf, very likely pushed through by the CSMs who mostly represent themselves.

Right now aggressors have all the advantage with their ability to D scan and know exactly what is going on and therefore take little risks. The cheaper the MSI, the more plentiful, more risk there is going to be for aggressors.


D-Scan favors defenders, actually.

-Liang

Ed: Actually, I'm going to ignore you from here on out. It's obvious that you're just here to troll, because literally nobody is as ******** as you appear to be.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#773 - 2014-01-09 18:38:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
G'host Warrot wrote:
Well this D-Scan thing is now dead for me. Thought about it for Solomining in Low-Sec.

To much cost, to low durationtime.

Well then, go ahead.






Me too man. I'm actually really sad Sad. As a solo player who doesn't have time for a large corp, I was going to get a heck of a lot of use for this mining outside high sec, and especially in wormholes. Currently, the rewards of mining outside high sec are nowhere worth the risk and costs and repetitive stress syndrome from having to mash d-scan every second as your only defense.

We could have had a defensive tool that provided more opportunities for you solo pirates, but the status quo, "aggressor advantage", couldn't let that happen. Way to go Straight

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#774 - 2014-01-09 18:41:17 UTC
If you're mining, then you are going to be in a location which can be warped to anyway, without having to drop probes (Which was a stupid change to hidden belts, but let's ignore that for now)

Unless you were planning on spamming lots of MSIs all over a system, exactly what protection that you didn't already have did you expect to gain?

Someone looking to kill you would just have gone "Oh, look, an MSI in a mining belt", and you're back where you would have been, with them warping in on you with no added warning.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#775 - 2014-01-09 18:42:32 UTC
Theon Severasse wrote:

Having the low EHP is important as it means that brawls don't simply have a "get out of fight" card that they can drop at any point.


Having low EHP means it's dead on arrival and was a total waste of dev resources. Most of the people who are saying that it is fine now are being dishonest because they don't want to just come out and say that it should be nerfed into uselessness.

Frankly, the MMJU is weird and we probably should've just gotten 1MN and 10MN MJDs, but complaining that MJDs allow brawlers to escape kiters is about as sensible as complaining that tracking disruptors neutralize turret kiters.

Seriously, folks. It's a ******* stationary object with the EHP of a frigate.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#776 - 2014-01-09 18:49:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Liang Nuren wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Can you expand upon how this is game breaking in Wormhole space. I'm really trying to understand what it is "breaking", or how it will be abused.


I don't understand how this isn't obvious. In K-Space, seeing a couple of these on scan and 3000 people in local gives you a pretty good idea what you're seeing. In K-Space, seeing one of these on scan and your favorite FW enemies in local gives you a pretty good idea what you're seeing. In K-Space, these will probably work something like what Fozzie is expecting.

However, the lack of local means that life in WH space revolves entirely around scan probes and D-Scan. The DSI can (and will be) spammed to provide a too strong benefit to people bearing it up in capital escalations. Additionally, one of these appearing is pretty horrifying because unlike K-Space there's no way to know how many people are hidden, what they're flying, or who they are. And there's no way to know without warping to the structure itself and directly into the drag bubble set up by their HIC.

I don't believe that this module adds sand to the sandbox.

-Liang

Ed: Someone above put it pretty well: The module is obviously designed with the partial intel that local provides. Without that partial intel (such as in WH space), I believe it to be game breakingly powerful.


I think you are greatly over-estimating its effect:
You enter a WH and see these on scan: Why is it there?
a.) It is a capital escalation group running sites. How do you find them with these scattered everywhere? You look for wrecks, because sleepers won't stay within the 30 km sphere of influence.

b.) Why else are these spammed throughout the area? Hiding ships amassing for a fight? We both know you can get eyes on the enemy very easily. We do it at POS's where with bubbles deployed, we do it at WH's guarded by hics, we do it all over the place, and any competent scout can easily deal with a hic/dic/mobile bubble while getting on grid. Because of this, it is far more likely your "enemies" will simply remain logged off until the fight, as to truly remain "unscannable".

c.) Unfortunately, you can't deploy these on top of a WH anymore; which would have been an excellent use for them, as you attempt to obfuscate the forces you are bringing in.

So, what exactly is breaking? What problem does the MSI give you that you can't EASILY overcome?
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#777 - 2014-01-09 18:51:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Liang Nuren wrote:

unlike K-Space there's no way to know how many people are hidden, what they're flying, or who they are. And there's no way to know without warping to the structure itself and directly into the drag bubble set up by their HIC.

.


So what you are saying is, there is no way of knowing and playing it safe unless you scout it out first with an expendable scout?

So it works exactly how bubbles work on gates.

What is the problem again?

As can be expected, you are only thinking about this from the perspective of a HELPLESS aggressor. D-scan isn't more advantageous for defenders it is the only tool they have.

MSI shows up on d scan and smart pirates could have taken advantage of the illusion of safety this thing might have provided to some PVErs.

The MSI could have been the best tool in the history of EVE for getting players out of high-sec but the status quo crowd killed it before it could get out the gate.

Success?

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#778 - 2014-01-09 18:57:47 UTC
You can dscan a bubble on a gate... and more importantly, you know if there are people in the system or not. If there's nobody else, or only blues, you know you're good to go. If there's a bunch of reds, no stations, and you can't get anything on d-scan anywhere else you're probably not safe.

You don't have that information in wormholes. You're relying on what you can actively find for yourself already, taking away more information is just making it harder for no real reason.

Hell, I know people that'll probably dump MSIs in random holes they have connections to just to screw with people.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#779 - 2014-01-09 18:59:52 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

unlike K-Space there's no way to know how many people are hidden, what they're flying, or who they are. And there's no way to know without warping to the structure itself and directly into the drag bubble set up by their HIC.

.


So what you are saying is, there is no way of knowing and playing it safe unless you scout it out first with an expendable scout?

So it works exactly how bubbles work on gates.

What is the problem again?

This is another case of nerf first, think later.

That is not at all how bubbles work on gates, and you do not need to be anywhere near to on grid to scout them.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Theon Severasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#780 - 2014-01-09 19:02:22 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
Theon Severasse wrote:

Having the low EHP is important as it means that brawls don't simply have a "get out of fight" card that they can drop at any point.


Having low EHP means it's dead on arrival and was a total waste of dev resources. Most of the people who are saying that it is fine now are being dishonest because they don't want to just come out and say that it should be nerfed into uselessness.

Frankly, the MMJU is weird and we probably should've just gotten 1MN and 10MN MJDs, but complaining that MJDs allow brawlers to escape kiters is about as sensible as complaining that tracking disruptors neutralize turret kiters.

Seriously, folks. It's a ******* stationary object with the EHP of a frigate.


I would have been MUCH happier if they had said they were going to introduce 1MN and 10MN MJDs. Both of those would have taken ship fittings in order to be used, and so there is a consequence to the user for having one on their ship. A structure floating in space has no consequences though.