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[Rubicon 1.1] Mobile Micro Jump Unit and Mobile Scan Inhibitor

First post First post First post
Author
Theon Severasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#641 - 2014-01-09 11:15:35 UTC
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Xaarous wrote:
I think adding 'terrain' to this serious spaceships game is a good idea.

I agree that not having character skills tied to it in some ways (either the deployer, the users, or both) is an unusual choice for a game so focused on character progression.

Having said that, I disagree that there's no player skill involved, especially in gangs (player != character, in case that wasn't clear). Get even 5 pilots to use one of these together and see how well their fleet can control their formation and ranges in a combat situation; further, this coordination scales poorly as fleet size goes up which (IMHO) is A Good Thing.

If anything, I think using the MJU in combat will demand MORE player skill - from everyone, not just the FC - not less.


Ok, other example: cloacking.

Actually requires:

- Specific training
- Specific module and fitting
- Specific ship

Have havy limitations:

- cannot use any module
- is decloacked by proximity
- ship fitting is limited
- speed limitations
- poor tank and DPS
- limited engagment opportunities
- targetting delay after decloacking

And more.

MSI not only give cloacking bypassing all the requirements (nothing is required, only having cargo space), not only ignore any penalities... but (as this wasn't already overpowered enough) allow to extend the cloacking to any number of ships around!

it's probably the most overpowered and unbalanced thing ever seen in the MMORPG history.

But, hey, is balanced, it costs 5 milions ISK!



While I agree with your point in general, the MSI is available on d-scan and can be found and warped to, while a cloaked player at a safe is literally impossible to find so long as they stay logged in.

We have to make sure we're being fair if we're to be taken seriously.


Well in the interest of fairness, Fozzie didn't say that being able to ECCM the MSI was a bug, so all that means is that if you want to cloak your fleet you just need to bring a few frigates with remote ECCM and you can make yourself unprobable...

Now I'm sure that it was just something that he missed off, but it's still a game breaking mechanic (even more so that telling all scouts to take a gamble on where to look) if it isn't removed from the implementation.

Unfortunately I fear that we are going to get the revised stats from the CSM discussion and then told "well they didn't complain!" and have it pushed onto us, rather than the sensible solution of shelving the project.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#642 - 2014-01-09 11:23:13 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I've been chatting with the CSM about the latest iteration of the design since earlier this afternoon, and things are looking positive from that end so far. Current plan is to give the CSM (especially the North Americans that got off work more recently) some more time to look over and comment on the changes and then if all looks satisfactory I'll bring them to you all in the morning Iceland time.

The CSM does not necessarily represent the majority of the player base, nor all the varying types of gameplay. You proceed with any endorsement that runs contrary to the feedback of your player base at your own peril. The CSM largely endorsed the unannounced changes to the rapid light missile launchers and look how well that's gone over. I'm not necessarily expecting a reply, because both you and Rise have largely chosen to simply comment on feedback that fits your criteria and casually disregard some of the more contentious aspects.


Of course the CSM isn't the only source for feedback but they are an important one. Our election system does a very good job of accurately representing the subset of the playerbase that cares enough to click a few buttons and in my experience they have provided a very useful pool of players who work very hard to help us improve the game.

We never limit ourselves just to one group's feedback, but for me to ignore the CSM or disrespect the valuable effort they put in would be to do the community and the game a disservice.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
There are fundamental aspects of EVE that are simply broken, and these more than anything else are inhibiting this game. I would rather see CCP take a six month break from new features and address the current backlog of broken of game mechanics that plague EVE. It's a short list, but simply deferring it again and again without making it a priority is costing more players than these new features hope to attract. Continually referencing the challenge as issues with "legacy code" is fast becoming tiresome, and if that's truly the case maybe CCP should track down some of the original programmers to help them deal with it.


We need to both add new things and fix older ones. I tend to fall into the camp that prizes revamping and converting older systems highly but to focus on just one or the other would leave us with missed opportunities to improve the game as a whole.

For every player that provides us the "Stop adding things and just fix stuff" feedback, there's another player that asks us to "Stop fixing stuff and just add things". Neither perspective is entirely wrong, but neither is entirely correct either.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#643 - 2014-01-09 11:23:45 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Priestess Lin wrote:
Yes, please don't compromise on these excellent new tools to the point of making them ineffectual. The CSMs mostly represent themselves and maintaining the status quo.

No, the CSM represent those who voted for them. If you didn't vote you don't deserve a say.


Well, to be honest i'm really glad i didn't vote with any of the current CSM membersl
i'll be really embarrassed to know the player i voted has agreed to the current iterration of Rapid light/heavy missile launchers, for example; Blink

regarding the new structures, wanted/not wanted looks like we will have them anyway, so if anyone dosen't have balsters trained i stronglly recommend you to start now Arrow
X4me1eoH
AirGuard
LowSechnaya Sholupen
#644 - 2014-01-09 11:30:28 UTC  |  Edited by: X4me1eoH
new mjd. Get disruptor, online mjd, warp out? pvp vithout scrambler will dead? kite ships will dead?

I think this mjd structure very bad idea. will be better if create medium mjd. Or give to structure huge volume, that only use with the indies
valthyr
Order of the Void Logistics
#645 - 2014-01-09 11:50:25 UTC  |  Edited by: valthyr
Okay normally I don't even bother taking the time to comment on new material because it seems that while the majority of people who post comments on new material tend to agree, CCP tends to not listen and just do what they want anyway, However this time around I feel that it is necessary to actually provide an inkling of feedback after having played on the test server.

CCP Fozzie wrote:

Mobile Micro Jump Unit

This baby does pretty much exactly what the name implies. When active, any player within range can use it to launch their ship 100km in the direction that the ship is travelling when it makes use of the structure. It has no cooldown or limit to how many ships can use it at once, but it does have a spoolup time just like the MJD module. This spoolup duration is not modified by skills and on the base structure it is 12s (just like the MJD module would be if you could use it without skills).

The actual Micro Jump effect works exactly the same as the effect from the module. So during the cycle you go full throttle in one direction with a sig radius penalty, it can't be cancelled, scrams prevent you from jumping, it preserves speed on landing, all that jazz. You only have to be within range of the structure at the start of the micro jump cycle, not at the end. If the structure is destroyed during your spoolup time, you do not get launched. Since the MJU has no cooldown, a player can start the jump cycle from a Micro Jump module or MJU immediately after finishing a previous jump facilitated by a different MJU.

There will be mass restrictions to prevent caps and supercaps from using it, but everything else is fair game. We are currently planning to set the mass restrictions such that freighters can use it but anything larger is blocked. Like I mentioned above, it is usable by everyone and is not restricted to the owner or their corp/fleet. This means you can feel free to use it to try and escape, but your assailant is also free to use it to follow you.

Like the Cynosaural Inhibitor and the Siphon Unit, the MJU is a single use structure. Once dropped it can never be scooped and will stay in space until it either gets blown up or finishes its lifetime.

Right now we have the base version set to 20s module activation time, 48hr lifetime, 25k ehp (mostly structure), 50m3 volume and a build cost of about 1m isk.
Micro Jump spoolup is 12s like an unskilled MJD.
Current activation range is 2500m but we're already leaning towards expanding that.
It can't be placed within 20km of gates or stations, within 40km of a starbase tower or within 6km of another MJU.


I mean really I get the idea that you want to add new content, but is it really necessary to add a structure that merely mimics the effect of a module that is already in the game and has been restricted to a single ship class that has been and still is slow as all hell and tends to need an easy solution for traveling short distances in a quick matter.

Instead of the MMJU why not just remove the ship class restriction from the MJD? It occurs to me that it would be easier to just remove the restriction rather than programming in an entire structure that is greatly overpowered by not having a skill requirement or any restrictions on whom can access it. In doing so you are still allowing the same end result even if it is a bit more limited as it only expands on fitting options for current ships, (thus expanding skill requirements to achieve the same effect) as opposed to enabling the feature for every ship within range without the need for skills or having modules fit.[/quote]


CCP Fozzie wrote:

Mobile Scan Inhibitor

This structure prevents anything inside its 30km radius from appearing on either DScan or Probe Scans. The Scan Inhibitor structure itself however does show up on both types of scan and is very easy to probe down. So you can prevent people from knowing what is inside it but you can't prevent people from knowing that something is there.

Players inside the radius of the structure will be able to scan as normal, except that they won't get scan results from anything that's right beside them inside the radius.

Another single use structure, no rescooping.
Current stats are 60s activation time, 2h lifetime, 45k ehp (once again mostly structure), 50m3 volume and a build cost of ~5m isk.
Like I said above, it has an effective radius of 30km, meaning that even if you're at the edge, someone warping to 0 on it can still catch you fairly easily, especially with inties.
Can't be deployed within 75km of gates or stations, or within 40km of control towers. Can't be deployed within 40km of another scan inhibitor so you can overlap them but you can never use one to mask the central structure of another.


Like I said above, we chose these structures as part of our second wave because we think that they have a lot of possibilities for creative use that will enrich the sandbox. We'll be announcing more as we get closer to 1.1 and the future Rubicon point releases but for now thanks in advance for taking the time to provide us your feedback on these first two structures.


Something truely new, I can approve of this module as it fills a role in the game that was previously vacant, and while I agree with the idea I believe that the 30km Radius is too large, and as such should be scaled down to perhaps 15km.

How about we scrap the MMJU and focus on fixing something that you have talked about for years, like POS's
marVLs
#646 - 2014-01-09 11:50:48 UTC
MMJD is crap, it will be another unused thing, srly stop adding stuff that wont be used even by 2% of players, and concentrate on major issues (drones, POSes, PVE etc)

Scan inhibitor - well interesting, this is something that will definitely makes life easier for some players and harder for others, i like it.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#647 - 2014-01-09 11:54:16 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
[quote=Arthur Aihaken][quote=CCP Fozzie]I've been chatting with the CSM about the latest iteration of the design since earlier this afternoon, and things are looking positive from that end so far. Current plan is to give the CSM (especially

...snip...

For every player that provides us the "Stop adding things and just fix stuff" feedback, there's another player that asks us to "Stop fixing stuff and just add things". Neither perspective is entirely wrong, but neither is entirely correct either.


You forgot the third camp...those that scream 'Fix the stuff you added!'
Galmas
13.
Enigma Project
#648 - 2014-01-09 11:59:41 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


...

For every player that provides us the "Stop adding things and just fix stuff" feedback, there's another player that asks us to "Stop fixing stuff and just add things". Neither perspective is entirely wrong, but neither is entirely correct either.

...



on what forums are they asking you to "Stop fixing stuff and just add things"?
Luscius Uta
#649 - 2014-01-09 12:01:57 UTC
I think it would make things more interesting if MMJD would have jump distance inversely proportional to the mass/inertia of ship that is activating it. So it would push a (typical) Cruiser 100 km away, frigate around 200 km but a Battleship only 20-30 km away.
Also, like wormholes, they could collapse prematurely once a certain amount of mass passes through it, but unlike wormholes, you couldn't have an estimate of how much mass passed through it via info panel.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#650 - 2014-01-09 12:02:39 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Priestess Lin wrote:
Yes, please don't compromise on these excellent new tools to the point of making them ineffectual. The CSMs mostly represent themselves and maintaining the status quo.

No, the CSM represent those who voted for them. If you didn't vote you don't deserve a say.



Wrong... the CSM basically means representation of the larger communities in eve. That does not necessarily means most of the players.

Also I pay for the game, and based on everything I ever read around I am sure I am far far more intelligent and capable of rational thought than most of the candidates usually are.

As is common of the democracy.. its a very effective way to choose the least effective leaders as possible.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#651 - 2014-01-09 12:14:33 UTC
marVLs wrote:
MMJD is crap, it will be another unused thing, srly stop adding stuff that wont be used even by 2% of players, and concentrate on major issues (drones, POSes, PVE etc)

Scan inhibitor - well interesting, this is something that will definitely makes life easier for some players and harder for others, i like it.



How not used? That think will beon every single shi that wishes to avoid PVP!!

It will be far more used than any of the other deployables (unlles sits nerfed)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#652 - 2014-01-09 12:20:33 UTC
Ok everyone, here is our first round of changes since the beginning of public feedback. These are some quite large changes but we think the end result is a much stronger design.

Mobile Micro Jump Unit

We're cutting the EHP of the structure by 80%, to 5000hp.
We're increasing the time that the MJU takes to activate to 1 minute.
We're increasing the range at which the MJU can be used to 5000m.
We're increasing the minimum range from other MJU structures to 10km.
We're disabling the ability to jump while cloaked.

Mobile Scan Inhibitor

Ships inside the area of a MSI's effect will have their own directional scanner and probe results disabled.
We're adding a minimum distance of 75km from wormholes.
We're reducing the sensor strength of the structure to 5 and increasing the signature radius to 500. Go ahead and apply as many projected ECCM to that as you want.
We're increasing the build cost to ~15m isk.
We're decreasing the structure's lifetime in space to 1 hour.
Minimum distance to another MSI is now 100km.
We're increasing the volume of the structure to 100m3.


I'll be updating the OP momentarily.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#653 - 2014-01-09 12:23:31 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ok everyone, here is our first round of changes since the beginning of public feedback. These are some quite large changes but we think the end result is a much stronger design.

Mobile Micro Jump Unit

We're cutting the EHP of the structure by 80%, to 5000hp.
We're increasing the time that the MJU takes to activate to 1 minute.
We're increasing the range at which the MJU can be used to 5000m.
We're increasing the minimum range from other MJU structures to 10km.
We're disabling the ability to jump while cloaked.

Mobile Scan Inhibitor

Ships inside the area of a MSI's effect will have their own directional scanner and probe results disabled.
We're adding a minimum distance of 75km from wormholes.
We're reducing the sensor strength of the structure to 5 and increasing the signature radius to 500. Go ahead and apply as many projected ECCM to that as you want.
We're increasing the build cost to ~15m isk.
We're decreasing the structure's lifetime in space to 1 hour.
Minimum distance to another MSI is now 100km.
We're increasing the volume of the structure to 100m3.


I'll be updating the OP momentarily.



Seems MUCH MUCH better. Far more interesting and balanced. Thanks for listening to us.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Fictional Supervillain
Immortal Kombat.
Neo-Bushido Movement
#654 - 2014-01-09 12:30:11 UTC
/me strokes his cat that is sat on his lap, swivels in his chair.


*nods*


Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#655 - 2014-01-09 12:31:13 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ok everyone, here is our first round of changes since the beginning of public feedback. These are some quite large changes but we think the end result is a much stronger design.

Mobile Micro Jump Unit

We're cutting the EHP of the structure by 80%, to 5000hp.
We're increasing the time that the MJU takes to activate to 1 minute.
We're increasing the range at which the MJU can be used to 5000m.
We're increasing the minimum range from other MJU structures to 10km.
We're disabling the ability to jump while cloaked.

Mobile Scan Inhibitor

Ships inside the area of a MSI's effect will have their own directional scanner and probe results disabled.
We're adding a minimum distance of 75km from wormholes.
We're reducing the sensor strength of the structure to 5 and increasing the signature radius to 500. Go ahead and apply as many projected ECCM to that as you want.
We're increasing the build cost to ~15m isk.
We're decreasing the structure's lifetime in space to 1 hour.
Minimum distance to another MSI is now 100km.
We're increasing the volume of the structure to 100m3.


I'll be updating the OP momentarily.

And some say CCP Fozzie doesn't listen.

Ships inside the area of a MSI's effect will have their own directional scanner and probe results disabled.
I guess I'm not quite getting this one, maybe another cup of coffee, does this mean ships inside of a MSI will not be able to get results from outside the MSI?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#656 - 2014-01-09 12:31:36 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ok everyone, here is our first round of changes since the beginning of public feedback. These are some quite large changes but we think the end result is a much stronger design.

Mobile Micro Jump Unit

We're cutting the EHP of the structure by 80%, to 5000hp.
We're increasing the time that the MJU takes to activate to 1 minute.
We're increasing the range at which the MJU can be used to 5000m.
We're increasing the minimum range from other MJU structures to 10km.
We're disabling the ability to jump while cloaked.

Mobile Scan Inhibitor

Ships inside the area of a MSI's effect will have their own directional scanner and probe results disabled.
We're adding a minimum distance of 75km from wormholes.
We're reducing the sensor strength of the structure to 5 and increasing the signature radius to 500. Go ahead and apply as many projected ECCM to that as you want.
We're increasing the build cost to ~15m isk.
We're decreasing the structure's lifetime in space to 1 hour.
Minimum distance to another MSI is now 100km.
We're increasing the volume of the structure to 100m3.


I'll be updating the OP momentarily.


will any of this structures get attacked by npcs?
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#657 - 2014-01-09 12:34:10 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Ships inside the area of a MSI's effect will have their own directional scanner and probe results disabled.
I guess I'm not quite getting this one, maybe another cup of coffee, does this mean ships inside of a MSI will not be able to get results from outside the MSI?


Yes. They won't get results from ships anywhere, outside the MSI or within the same MSI as them (but those sips are right beside them so it doesn't really matter).

Ships inside the MSI will still get results on things like signatures, celestials, beacons, stuff that the MSI doesn't block.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#658 - 2014-01-09 12:35:00 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ok everyone, here is our first round of changes since the beginning of public feedback. These are some quite large changes but we think the end result is a much stronger design.

Mobile Micro Jump Unit

We're cutting the EHP of the structure by 80%, to 5000hp.
We're increasing the time that the MJU takes to activate to 1 minute.
We're increasing the range at which the MJU can be used to 5000m.
We're increasing the minimum range from other MJU structures to 10km.
We're disabling the ability to jump while cloaked.

Mobile Scan Inhibitor

Ships inside the area of a MSI's effect will have their own directional scanner and probe results disabled.
We're adding a minimum distance of 75km from wormholes.
We're reducing the sensor strength of the structure to 5 and increasing the signature radius to 500. Go ahead and apply as many projected ECCM to that as you want.
We're increasing the build cost to ~15m isk.
We're decreasing the structure's lifetime in space to 1 hour.
Minimum distance to another MSI is now 100km.
We're increasing the volume of the structure to 100m3.


I'll be updating the OP momentarily.

And some say CCP Fozzie doesn't listen.

Ships inside the area of a MSI's effect will have their own directional scanner and probe results disabled.
I guess I'm not quite getting this one, maybe another cup of coffee, does this mean ships inside of a MSI will not be able to get results from outside the MSI?

yea, they need a scout outside of the msi effect area,
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#659 - 2014-01-09 12:35:10 UTC
gascanu wrote:


will any of this structures attacked by npcs?



They should not be attacked by NPCs, no.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#660 - 2014-01-09 12:36:27 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Ships inside the area of a MSI's effect will have their own directional scanner and probe results .
I guess I'm not quite getting this one, maybe another cup of coffee, does this mean ships inside of a MSI will not be able to get results from outside the MSI?


Yes. They won't get results from ships anywhere, outside the MSI or within the same MSI as them (but those sips are right beside them so it doesn't really matter).

Ships inside the MSI will still get results on things like signatures, celestials, beacons, stuff that the MSI doesn't block.

Ok, thank you for the reply. Making myself another cup of coffee now.

disabled..... not displayed.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.