Player Features and Ideas Discussion

It is simulated. I don't know if the skills affect this significantly. Any virtual behaviour that is based on mathematical statistics is a simulation. I don't understand what you're trying to talk about when you say it's not being simulated. You mean It does not matter for damage or movement calculation? I know that.

If you don't see the difference from a spin from bumping to a spin from alignment is because you probably are afk when a fleet warps in for a bridge and someone sets it's ship to "approach" instead of "keep at range". Small bump from a Brutix at <100m/s = slow 720º spin of an Avatar... that is my point.
And no, gameplay doesn't suffer from this more than it suffers from poor physics simulation of 1400m/s cruisers pushing freighters beiond their speed limits, it just breaks player immersion. On a second tough gameplay from sci-fi fans, RP'rs and the like does suffer a bit from it.

EDIT: The fact that the spinning resulted from bumping is not relevant on the server side is just another reason for this behaviour to be properly simulated. Make a proper attrition physics calculation on the client side. Since the ship is stopped the size it's movement vector is 0, so it doesn't make any difference in the game what direction the ship is pointing for the player. Fix this floating leaf behaviour from capital ships and you're on the tracks of having a beautiful ship interaction model.

I actually agree with making ship bumping more in line with real physics, but not "because of math."

When ships of different mass don't collide the way common sense dictates, it's very immersion breaking. When I see it happen I get instantly pulled back from being "in" the game and realize "oh I'm in a goofy video game." Kind of like when something really stupid happens in a good movie and you're suddenly back in the theater watching a screen and not in the story anymore.

Having your autopilot route light up betweeen stars in space is awesomely immersive, along with having the stargates actually shoot you off into the right star. Pinball battleships is anti-that.

It doesn't have to be real physics (which in a lot of cases is actually counter-intuitive), it should just look a little more real.

Black Strap Molasses

Trust me I understand (engineering background here), but with all due respect you've forgotten how normal people think. having a frigate bounce off a battleship at 22kms would look "weird" to most people even if correct, because perfectly elastic collisions are rare in day day life. It's why those executive toy swinging ball apparatus things sell: if that kind of momentum conservation wasn't odd lookin nobody would find them interesting. It's also why having spaceships bank when turning and move like sailing ships in water is "intuitively obvious to the most casual observer," plays well in a video game, yet is wrong.

So at the risk of being sent to hell by Halliday & Resnick, I'd approximate something massively inelastic that still works for gameplay even if it's not Fully Real (tm).

Clipping is when two models try to overlap. The magic of a 1hz server update is that it's pretty likely that two objects will decide they're in the same spot at the same time when the update happens. Then the server shoves them away from each other. There was a Devblog several years ago talking about some of the changes they made to how collisions work in EVE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_(computer_graphics)


Why should stepping on the gas suddenly make your ship insubstantial? Why should Titans be buffed by making them harder to kill (they often fit MWDs to aid with ailigning and moving back under POS shields, now you're making it impossible to prevent from ducking back under the shields)?


Frigates can get up over 20km/s.

Overheated, Snakes, Zors, no fleet boosts, and it does 4141m/s. There are plenty of ships that can go faster (like the SFI which can hit 14,480m/s).
What's the problem with a Battleship that sacrifices most of its ability to actually do anything but be fast being fast?


[Machariel, BumpMach]
Domination Overdrive Injector
Domination Overdrive Injector
Domination Overdrive Injector
Domination Overdrive Injector
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Core C-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Large Auxiliary Thrusters II
Large Auxiliary Thrusters II
Large Low Friction Nozzle Joints I





I see, this is a language issue. When I say that angular momentum is not simulated, I mean that it is not taken to account. It doesn't exist as a principle in the EVE universe. Ships just turn at some speed.



A 720 spin does not happen from just a bump. You get up to a 180 from the bump and the rest is from the Titan pilot trying to get back into the orientation and position he wants.



You just put "physics simulation" spacecraft and "speed limits" in the same sentence. Spacecraft have maximum accelerations, not maximum velocities.
Why aren't you complaining about the fact that this game is best described as a Submarine simulation with space paint slapped on it? Because that wouldn't make good gameplay for EVE.

If you want immersion by slavish devotion to perfect simulation, there are games for that. There are absolutely fantastic games for that. EVE is not among them.

And making ships arbitrarily insubstantial is **** gameplay. Bumping is far too important a mechanic to arbitrarily remove.
And, since your argument is based on a call for realism, why should stepping on the gas all of a sudden make my ship insubstantial? Warping in EVE is always for fixed distances and in a straight line. See: Warping and MJDs.

Titans cannot be webbed. Titans poking their nose out of POS shields can and have been bumped away and killed. We should worry about ships poking their nose out of POS shields because they can have the same effect on a battle as they would if they had committed to it.



Why? The Machariel's shtick is that it is fast. Why shouldn't it be fast if you fit it to do nothing useful except be fast?



What gameplay benefit do you expect to come from a massive increase in the effect of bumping? EVE is not a game whose design goal includes being the perfect simulation (or even a good simulation) of some real environment, so "improving realism" is not actually a legitimate argument for making a change.

EVE's physics and gameplay are, at their core, most closely akin to a submarine simulation. But that's just how the game mechanics ended up from a goal of "make a fun sandbox game."
To put it another way, you need a better reason than "make it more realistic" to start adding rules to Risk to try to turn it into Axis and Allies.

P.S. Removing MWDs from the equation entirely, a bump Machariel running an afterburner hits 1592m/s for a momentum of 150 billion kgm/s, about the same momentum as a Titan, or 15 times the momentum of a Freighter. Without taking into account the afterburner's mass increase.

Insubstantial: adj. not solid. i.e. exactly what you were suggesting turning an MWD on would do to a ship.

You can't scram a super, they're immune to ewar. So your suggestion would make all Supers immune to bumping, because they would all always fit them and always have them on.



Both the MJD and warping work in a fundamentally different way than normal travel. ABs and MWDs simply add thrust and speed you up. Why should adding thrust suddenly make you insubstantial?

TCUs are set up right next to POSes. POSes are also important things to fight over themselves.



Find where someone from CCP has said that the Machariel should be slow. It has the highest base speed of any battleship by a decent margin. What part of that implies that it should be slow?



A frigate can't put up the same momentum as an AB battleship. It can put up a similar momentum to a Freighter, but that's because Freighters are slow. Anyway, why should the speeds of smaller ships be massively nerfed just because bigger ships are slower?

The Mach fit I linked only costs about 1.25b hull included. Now, why should it be able to send a Freighter spinning off into the abyss at ~1400m/s? Why should it be able to send a Titan back the way it came at twice its full speed?


Oh, and I took the liberty of bolding the straw men you put up.

A 18º spin of a Titan that was just touched by a battleship would still look bad.

Yes, EVE spacecrafts DO have maximum velocities. They are not able to accelerate indefinitely like RL spacecrafts. You can see that number when you put the mouse over your propulsion modules. That is not acceleration, that is speed (acceleration values are indicated on the m/s² format). Whenever a ship speed in EVE is beyond that number it's because it was pushed by something, because it cannot go that fast by it's own propulsion.

I'm complaining because I like the game. I like other aspects than the simulation and because this also matters to me I think it could be improved somehow. What I don't understand is why you care so much about my complaint. If the ship spin velocity from bumping ever gets changed this will affect nothing of your gameplay (since, as you already pointed, this is not taken into account when calculating movement or damage). I know EVE is not focused on the simulation aspect. What I'm proposing are simple changes. Small things like this spin velocity, a better collision box for asteroids maybe. Small things that improve the game immersion without compromising the gameplay. This is far from making it a perfect simulation, it's just making it a not too dummy of a simulation.

In real physics, any force, no matter how small, acting to spin something in a vacuum will result in the object spinning forever, absent the action of another force.

Anyway, if you want an RP justification, here:
The ships computers are designed to always keep the nose of the ship pointing in the direction of travel. When a stationary ship gets bumped, the ship turns to face the new direction of travel.

There's your immersion.


Yes. In EVE, spaceships have maximum velocities. In Real life, they have maximum accelerations. Different systems, different rules.
In EVE, spaceships turn at a fixed rate regardless of the forces acting on them. In Real life, they turn based on the forces acting on them. Different systems, different rules.

You were complaining that a fast ship can push a slow ship faster than it's speed limit. Making collisions based on momentum would result in being able to push slow ships to much, much higher speeds than you can now.
When an SFI hits a freighter now, the Freighter heads off the other way, but at a fairly slow pace. If collisions were based on momentum, as proposed by you and Andy, the Freighter would head screaming off at around 1400m/s.

EvE ships simulation is not consistent with it's own space. It's not a vacuum, there is a drag, but nonetheless the drag on smaller ships is greater than the one from ofmgthisishugebigger ships. I don't want ships spinning forever, I want the oposite of that. I want titanic ships to spin very little or don't spin at all from bumping of small ships. I know this is not realistic, but at least it is consistent. I don't want EvE to be realistic. I'm ok with space having up and down, static planets, liquid space and all the regular sci-fi staging stuff we are all used to. I really don't understand and you're not expressing the reason for you to have a problem with me wanting a more consistent representation of EvE's own universe. Although the topic of our concern is similar I'm not proposing the same thing as Andy.