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Collisions and the Conservation of Momentum equations (Physics)

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Author
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#61 - 2014-01-07 19:14:56 UTC
Quote:
An pvp-fit shield-tanked AB Machariel goes 553 m/s with a mass of 94,680,000 kg straight at a stationary Ragnarok with a mass of 2,075,625,000 kg. During an elastic collision without any mass increase, The Machariel bounces back at 505 m/s, while the Titan bounces the other way at 48 m/s.

Verifying that the above scenario concerning conservation of momentum for elastic collisions does not currently hold on the servers. If the Macheriel increased the Titan's velocity by 48 m/s in its direction of impact and the Machariel was sent the other way at 505 m/s, how would such elastic collisions affect your sense of realism and gameplay? Or would you prefer inelastic collisions and would you want the extra energy to go into damage?

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Pipa Porto
#62 - 2014-01-07 23:22:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Andy Landen wrote:
If the Macheriel increased the Titan's velocity by 48 m/s in its direction of impact and the Machariel was sent the other way at 505 m/s, how would such elastic collisions affect your sense of realism and gameplay? Or would you prefer inelastic collisions and would you want the extra energy to go into damage?


Not increased, the Titan would be going backwards at 48m/s from going full speed ahead (~75m/s). That's a ~125m/s change in velocity for the Titan.

This is a much, much larger change in velocity than what currently occurs, and your initial complaint was that the changes in velocity due to bumping were unrealistically large.


Now, what gameplay benefit do you expect to see from a massive buff to the efficacy of bumping?

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Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#63 - 2014-01-11 01:01:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Pipa Porto wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
...straight at a stationary Ragnarok with a mass of 2,075,625,000 kg...
If the Machariel increased the Titan's velocity by 48 m/s in its direction of impact and the Machariel was sent the other way at 505 m/s, how would such elastic collisions affect your sense of realism and gameplay? Or would you prefer inelastic collisions and would you want the extra energy to go into damage?


Not increased, the Titan would be going backwards at 48m/s from going full speed ahead (~75m/s). That's a ~125m/s change in velocity for the Titan.

This is a much, much larger change in velocity than what currently occurs, and your initial complaint was that the changes in velocity due to bumping were unrealistically large.

Now, what gameplay benefit do you expect to see from a massive buff to the efficacy of bumping?


If you had read the initial conditions you would have seen that it was a stationary Ragnarok. Stationary does not mean full speed toward the Machariel; stationary means 0 m/s. If the Titan was going 75 m/s FORWARD directly at the Machariel, then after an elastic collision, it would continue going FORWARD 20.2 m/s (NOT backwards at 48 m/s) and the Machariel would be sent BACKWARD at 648 m/s. I have never seen such elasticity in current Eve collision mechanics.

And while we are on the topic of "what currently occurs," go ahead and put forth the numbers from your Machariel/Titan collision test.

For those who want to try other situations, here is an online momentum calculator to compare your results with. You can obtain mass and max velocity information on the various ships through Evemon.

PS: I wonder if anyone has considered capital AB and MWD. 1,000 MN with capital fitting requirements. We also need a capital micro jump drive. They do have on board jump drives, so if anything, the "1,000 MN" MJDs should also be onboard.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#64 - 2014-01-18 12:10:07 UTC
Post your results on what happens when you collide with various ships and post the difference from the expected outcome with the equations calculations at the online momentum calculator link referenced above.

Also, add whether you think that the collisions should be elastic with no damage or inelastic (dampened) with part of the kinetic energy transferred into damage on both ships. The more energy transferred to damage, the less elastic the collision and the less "bounce" in the collision. I think that each pilot should be able to change the amount of bounce for their ship by setting their shields to be more or less bouncy. My thinking is that less bouncy ships receive more damage but get less bounced and the collision elasticity follows the lowest bounciness setting of the two ships in the collision. The damage would be determined by the kinetic equations base on the changes in velocity. The mitigation of damage would be handled through an optional damage avoidance system made mandatory in high sec and multiple exit points on stations with an undock queue based on when the current undocking ships have cleared the undocked enough for the next ship to undock (even allow players to be able to see the undock and choose which undock to use; the damage avoidance system would not let any ship impede the flow of undock traffic and would force the ship to continue to move out of the undock path so that even Ctrl-Space would make the ship move out of the undock cone.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2014-01-18 14:00:10 UTC
Sigras wrote:
The abaddon is in the neighborhood of 150 times more massive than a stiletto, and if we're following the laws of physics (assuming negligible loss to thermal energy and crushing parts of the ship) the stiletto should immediately accelerate to 15,000 m/s or 15 km/s and never slow down unless it wants to. This would allow it to cross 150 km in 10s and tackle a sniper fleet, and would be relatively simple to execute. You could even get the abaddon up to 150 m/s and accelerate the frigate to 22.5 km/s

What actually happens is the Abaddon doesn't stop much, and doesn't transfer its energy into the Stiletto.

I agree with the OP, much needed change that would only be beneficial to the game. It would now require a whole fleet of subcaps working together to bump a supercap, not one lone battleship. A frigate could still bump a battleship but not very well. 5 frigates could bump a battleship pretty great.

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