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Faction Warfare farming has to end - we want war instead of the Cloak & Stabs -game

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Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#181 - 2013-12-10 18:30:29 UTC
samualvimes wrote:
The problem with not having something like timer rollback is that it gives a huge disadvantage to the defender in his home system.

if the attacker plexes for 10 minutes in a 15minute capture plex in a low/non contested system then the defender has to deplex for 25 minutes to close that plex out for pretty much no lp.

Meanwhile the farmer has moved to the next plex and has started plexing that 15 minutes or even 20 minute plex.

Either the defender deplexes or he gives chase to get rid of the farmer

If he deplexes the farmer wins the other plex and starts another one on top of that.

If he doesn't the farmer just returns and finishes off the last few minutes and wins.

If he gives chase it involves a pretty ****** PvP fit to beat the guy especially around novices and smalls where you can't get the high alpha ships you need to be able to take them out without scrams coming out of the proverbial....



Confirming that this scenario exists in a vacuum and there's no way to get a corp mate to help you run plexers off.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
RAW23
#182 - 2013-12-10 18:37:14 UTC
Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#183 - 2013-12-10 18:39:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Xuixien
RAW23 wrote:
Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable.


You are absolutely correct.

Basically very little farming would actually get done beyond a few people baiting for fights in plexes. This would have two outcomes:


  1. There would be less ISK made, and people would start abandoning FW because it would become too expensive.
  2. The warzone would barely move.


The net result: these same people who are QQcatting about farming would then be QQcatting about system control and lack of targets.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
samualvimes
Brothers At Arms
#184 - 2013-12-10 18:40:06 UTC
RAW23 wrote:
Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable.


Yeah but if there are 10 people in 10 plexes they should be able to take a dramiel don't you think? Maybe if they you know teamed up?

If you've never tried PvP in EvE it's quite possible you've missed out on one of the greatest rushes available in modern gaming.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#185 - 2013-12-10 18:43:13 UTC
samualvimes wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable.


Yeah but if there are 10 people in 10 plexes they should be able to take a dramiel don't you think? Maybe if they you know teamed up?


Oh cool - then the Dramiel pilot wouldn't even have to warp into 10 plexes in order to rollback 10 plexes!

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
samualvimes
Brothers At Arms
#186 - 2013-12-10 18:44:27 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable.


You are absolutely correct.

Basically very little farming would actually get done beyond a few people baiting for fights in plexes. This would have two outcomes:


  1. There would be less ISK made, and people would start abandoning FW because it would become too expensive.
  2. The warzone would barely move.


The net result: these same people who are QQcatting about farming would then be QQcatting about system control and lack of targets.


The warzone WOULD move however it will move due to pushes by people willing to engage in PvP and make the strategic moves not to whoever the famers are farming for this month.

If you've never tried PvP in EvE it's quite possible you've missed out on one of the greatest rushes available in modern gaming.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#187 - 2013-12-10 18:45:25 UTC
samualvimes wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable.


You are absolutely correct.

Basically very little farming would actually get done beyond a few people baiting for fights in plexes. This would have two outcomes:


  1. There would be less ISK made, and people would start abandoning FW because it would become too expensive.
  2. The warzone would barely move.


The net result: these same people who are QQcatting about farming would then be QQcatting about system control and lack of targets.


The warzone WOULD move however it will move due to pushes by people willing to engage in PvP and make the strategic moves not to whoever the famers are farming for this month.


Exactly what I said: The WZ would barely move.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
samualvimes
Brothers At Arms
#188 - 2013-12-10 18:45:28 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable.


Yeah but if there are 10 people in 10 plexes they should be able to take a dramiel don't you think? Maybe if they you know teamed up?


Oh cool - then the Dramiel pilot wouldn't even have to warp into 10 plexes in order to rollback 10 plexes!


If those people all systematically took and held plexes and fought to hold them there wouldn't be any rollback....

If you've never tried PvP in EvE it's quite possible you've missed out on one of the greatest rushes available in modern gaming.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#189 - 2013-12-10 18:48:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Thanatos Marathon
Xuixien wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable.


Yeah but if there are 10 people in 10 plexes they should be able to take a dramiel don't you think? Maybe if they you know teamed up?


Oh cool - then the Dramiel pilot wouldn't even have to warp into 10 plexes in order to rollback 10 plexes!


Only if they make the strategic decision to actively engage the Darmiel pilot together. Then it is a choice of killing the dram and rerunning the timers with all of them, a select few of them, or playing avoidance games (warping around to 10 plexes and activating the gate takes time).

Also, I generally don't think the best implementation would be instant rollbacks of the timer as soon as someone cloaks or warps out of the plex because of this scenario. I think it should start counting back to the original time at an enhanced rate (10 seconds for every 1 or so) until it reaches its base timer). But that is really more of tweaking the idea than tossing the idea out itself.

Why are you against timer rollbacks?

JUSTK is recruiting
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#190 - 2013-12-10 18:48:56 UTC
samualvimes wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable.


Yeah but if there are 10 people in 10 plexes they should be able to take a dramiel don't you think? Maybe if they you know teamed up?


Oh cool - then the Dramiel pilot wouldn't even have to warp into 10 plexes in order to rollback 10 plexes!


If those people all systematically took and held plexes and fought to hold them there wouldn't be any rollback....


Oh so what you're saying is people should pile into plexes 10 at a time?

Because otherwise your statement makes no sense.

DOT DOT DOT

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
RAW23
#191 - 2013-12-10 18:50:05 UTC
samualvimes wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable.


Yeah but if there are 10 people in 10 plexes they should be able to take a dramiel don't you think? Maybe if they you know teamed up?


Oh cool - then the Dramiel pilot wouldn't even have to warp into 10 plexes in order to rollback 10 plexes!


If those people all systematically took and held plexes and fought to hold them there wouldn't be any rollback....


So you are saying that solo plexing in a T1 frig just shouldn't ever happen?

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#192 - 2013-12-10 18:52:09 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable.


Yeah but if there are 10 people in 10 plexes they should be able to take a dramiel don't you think? Maybe if they you know teamed up?


Oh cool - then the Dramiel pilot wouldn't even have to warp into 10 plexes in order to rollback 10 plexes!


Only if they make the strategic decision to actively engage the Darmiel pilot together. Then it is a choice of killing the dram and rerunning the timers with all of them, a select few of them, or playing avoidance games (warping around to 10 plexes and activating the gate takes time).

Also, I generally don't think the best implementation would be instant rollbacks of the timer as soon as someone cloaks or warps out of the plex because of this scenario. I think it should start counting back to the original time at an enhanced rate (10 seconds for ever 1 or so) until it reaches its base timer). But that is really more of tweaking the idea than tossing the idea out itself.

Why are you against timer rollbacks?


So you want the timer to count backwards 10x as fast as it counts upwards?

Yeah. Reset all your plexes to chase the Dramiel around. Then go back to running timers so that... another solo pilot could come in and make you reset all your plexes. Wow - that would be a UTOPIA man.

So if you plex for 10 minutes, and warp out - the timer will be back to 0 by the time you return - which is effectively the same net outcome to an instant rollback. Or if you cloak, the WT only has to sit there for a minute and not only rolls back the timer, but captures the plex. In 1 minute. Nice idea!!!!

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#193 - 2013-12-10 18:54:05 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable.


Yeah but if there are 10 people in 10 plexes they should be able to take a dramiel don't you think? Maybe if they you know teamed up?


Oh cool - then the Dramiel pilot wouldn't even have to warp into 10 plexes in order to rollback 10 plexes!


Only if they make the strategic decision to actively engage the Darmiel pilot together. Then it is a choice of killing the dram and rerunning the timers with all of them, a select few of them, or playing avoidance games (warping around to 10 plexes and activating the gate takes time).

Also, I generally don't think the best implementation would be instant rollbacks of the timer as soon as someone cloaks or warps out of the plex because of this scenario. I think it should start counting back to the original time at an enhanced rate (10 seconds for ever 1 or so) until it reaches its base timer). But that is really more of tweaking the idea than tossing the idea out itself.

Why are you against timer rollbacks?


So you want the timer to count backwards 10x as fast as it counts upwards?

Yeah. Reset all your plexes to chase the Dramiel around. Then go back to running timers so that... another solo pilot could come in and make you reset all your plexes. Wow - that would be a UTOPIA man.

So if you plex for 10 minutes, and warp out - the timer will be back to 0 by the time you return - which is effectively the same net outcome to an instant rollback. Or if you cloak, the WT only has to sit there for a minute and not only rolls back the timer, but captures the plex. In 1 minute. Nice idea!!!!


How would having it speed roll to its natural base time help him capture it in a minute exactly?

JUSTK is recruiting
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#194 - 2013-12-10 18:55:47 UTC
Guys I got an idea.

They should remove plexes and missions in FW as they exist and morph the two.

All missions from agents should be kill scenarios. "You must kill 1 WT in xx system." When you enter that system, a plex opens up. When an enemy warps to the plex, you must kill them in honnourable Bushido combat in order to get your LP reward.

After all FW is all about PvP and nothing else. CCP said so!

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
samualvimes
Brothers At Arms
#195 - 2013-12-10 18:56:09 UTC  |  Edited by: samualvimes
Xuixien wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable.


Yeah but if there are 10 people in 10 plexes they should be able to take a dramiel don't you think? Maybe if they you know teamed up?


Oh cool - then the Dramiel pilot wouldn't even have to warp into 10 plexes in order to rollback 10 plexes!


Only if they make the strategic decision to actively engage the Darmiel pilot together. Then it is a choice of killing the dram and rerunning the timers with all of them, a select few of them, or playing avoidance games (warping around to 10 plexes and activating the gate takes time).

Also, I generally don't think the best implementation would be instant rollbacks of the timer as soon as someone cloaks or warps out of the plex because of this scenario. I think it should start counting back to the original time at an enhanced rate (10 seconds for ever 1 or so) until it reaches its base timer). But that is really more of tweaking the idea than tossing the idea out itself.

Why are you against timer rollbacks?




So you want the timer to count backwards 10x as fast as it counts upwards?

Yeah. Reset all your plexes to chase the Dramiel around. Then go back to running timers so that... another solo pilot could come in and make you reset all your plexes. Wow - that would be a UTOPIA man.

So if you plex for 10 minutes, and warp out - the timer will be back to 0 by the time you return - which is effectively the same net outcome to an instant rollback. Or if you cloak, the WT only has to sit there for a minute and not only rolls back the timer, but captures the plex. In 1 minute. Nice idea!!!!


This shows that not only do you not know how plexing works but that you also haven't read any of the above as it's all explained in there.

If you've never tried PvP in EvE it's quite possible you've missed out on one of the greatest rushes available in modern gaming.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#196 - 2013-12-10 18:59:16 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Guys I got an idea.

They should remove plexes and missions in FW as they exist and morph the two.

All missions from agents should be kill scenarios. "You must kill 1 WT in xx system." When you enter that system, a plex opens up. When an enemy warps to the plex, you must kill them in honnourable Bushido combat in order to get your LP reward.

After all FW is all about PvP and nothing else. CCP said so!


An interesting idea, but I think Implementing Timer rollbacks will be enough for now.

JUSTK is recruiting
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#197 - 2013-12-10 18:59:47 UTC
samualvimes wrote:


This shows that not only do you not know how plexing works but that you also haven't read any of the above as it's all explained in there.


"You made one minor error in your post. I will thus ignore all the hard points you made and just reply to that one error, and use that error to conclude that you don't know how plexing works at all."

Cool, I made a mistake.

Now let's get back to discussing those hard points that were raised. Or is that too hard? Bear

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#198 - 2013-12-10 19:00:35 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Guys I got an idea.

They should remove plexes and missions in FW as they exist and morph the two.

All missions from agents should be kill scenarios. "You must kill 1 WT in xx system." When you enter that system, a plex opens up. When an enemy warps to the plex, you must kill them in honnourable Bushido combat in order to get your LP reward.

After all FW is all about PvP and nothing else. CCP said so!


An interesting idea, but I think Implementing Timer rollbacks will be enough for now.


As already shown, timer rollbacks would be a terrible and imbalanced idea.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#199 - 2013-12-10 19:04:15 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Guys I got an idea.

They should remove plexes and missions in FW as they exist and morph the two.

All missions from agents should be kill scenarios. "You must kill 1 WT in xx system." When you enter that system, a plex opens up. When an enemy warps to the plex, you must kill them in honnourable Bushido combat in order to get your LP reward.

After all FW is all about PvP and nothing else. CCP said so!


An interesting idea, but I think Implementing Timer rollbacks will be enough for now.


As already shown, timer rollbacks would be a terrible and imbalanced idea.


And there's the rub. You think that it would be a terrible and imbalanced idea. However if you look at the people that are actually in FW that are posting in the thread you will find that most are in favor of Timer Rollbacks.

I'm not sure what makes you think it would be a terrible and imbalanced idea because it wouldn't stop farming, it would just make it take slightly more work.

JUSTK is recruiting
samualvimes
Brothers At Arms
#200 - 2013-12-10 19:04:19 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Guys I got an idea.

They should remove plexes and missions in FW as they exist and morph the two.

All missions from agents should be kill scenarios. "You must kill 1 WT in xx system." When you enter that system, a plex opens up. When an enemy warps to the plex, you must kill them in honnourable Bushido combat in order to get your LP reward.

After all FW is all about PvP and nothing else. CCP said so!


An interesting idea, but I think Implementing Timer rollbacks will be enough for now.


As already shown, timer rollbacks would be a terrible and imbalanced idea.


Ok well your point is that it would allow the defender to capture the plex in one minute. Lets disect that alone shall we?

The defender would after the roll back STILL have to spend the full timer to capture it for the defense thus either denying the plex or gaining the contestion rollback.

This would also occur if the defendder clocked up 14:59 on a 15 minute timer back to 0 as well to stop defenders "preloading" plexes to make a 15 minute plex take 29:59 for an attacker.

Timer rollbacks even the playing fields both ways.

If you've never tried PvP in EvE it's quite possible you've missed out on one of the greatest rushes available in modern gaming.