These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

First post First post First post
Author
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#181 - 2013-12-03 21:29:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Owen Levanth
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Note: This is what CCP should have released

I am very relieved to finally show you the cooler Sisters of EVE Exploration Battleship, the Nestor.

We believed that keeping the covert cloak theme was not going to work for the battleship initially and we still think it but you whiners want a cloak, so you get at least the black ops bonus. Now you can fit an improved cloak and be faster than molasses. Happy? We began to really understand that there is a need for a dedicated exploration battleship and we will make this work regardless of what you think. This ship has some massive and blocky teeth to it. We decided a jump drive would be a bit too much, though.

We are getting rid of the logistics crap and remove the useless bonus. We don't even know why we had this stupid idea!


Here's the details:

NESTOR

Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level

Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level

Role bonuses:
Whatever that speed bonus on a black ops was
50% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay because why not

Can not fit Covert Ops Cloaking Devices.
Can fit Bastion Module, but only in your dreams.
Bubble immunity? Huh, what?


Fixed! No thanks necessary.
Kenneth Skybound
Gallifrey Resources
#182 - 2013-12-03 21:30:42 UTC
I would say change the bonuses such:

Amarr Battleship Bonuses:

  • 4% Armor resistances per level
  • 10% Large energy turret optimal range per level


Gallente Battleship Bonuses:

  • 10% Drone damage and hitpoints per level
  • 10% Remote repair amount per level


Role Bonuses:

  • 50% increased strength for scan probes
  • +10 virus strength for relic and data analyzers
  • 100% bonus to remote repair range


This doesn't stuff the battleship into a pure combat role (the scanning stuff still exists) and doesn't give it a ridiculous number of role bonuses. Instead, the remote repair bonus still has to be earned via skill points, not just bought with the ship. I've put the laser bonus rather than new remote repair range bonus onto the amarr battleship firstly as the range bonus seems more needed and secondly a laser bonus belongs with amarr. (Were the laser bonus to be removed, then the remote repair range should be gallente, amount amarr in my opinon).

Not sure about the 700 cargo hold - was hoping for an amazing 1000 but I guess that would be asking too much.

I know that no other pirate ship has 2 bonuses per skill at this time, but perhaps the battleships could be in line to receive that treatment in the balancing pass, giving room to make them more varied while still powerful, rather than having to settle for powerful yet somehow not OP single bonuses.
Elite Saiyajin
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#183 - 2013-12-03 21:32:50 UTC
I would say trade the repair amount for repair range.
Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#184 - 2013-12-03 21:33:58 UTC
If you're going to do range, I'd pull back amount some. Logistics ships exist for the flexibility of range. Other ships can rep more, but they have to give up the range to do it. The nestor shouldn't be exempt from that trade off.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#185 - 2013-12-03 21:36:50 UTC
I'm really not sure what to think about this ship.

On the one hand, as a logi pilot and sometimes EFT warrior, I am really excited by the prospect of a logi ship that can keep up with MJD battleships without having to be *really* careful about positioning.
On the other hand, I have no idea how to balance that, or even if a reasonable balance can be achieved. It looks broken (in a hard-to-use sort of way) as currently implemented and the role bonuses are really all over the place.
On the gripping hand, Sound doesn't fly ships like this (both too big and too expensive), so I probably won't run into situations where it would be used very often.

I feel like the probe and virus bonuses are fine. They're flavorful, and they won't matter very often, so they can be, IMO, easily ignored.

The Nestor really needs another low slot, IMO. It has an armor resist bonus, but it has fewer low slots than a Prophecy. Heck, even the Dominix Navy Issue, to which I suspect this is going to get compared a lot, has a 6/6/7 slot layout. (The regular domi is 6/5/7.) I'd be okay with either 7/5/7 or 6/6/7. Typhoons do fine for mid slots with a 7/5/7, from what I've seen, but the demand for omni tracking links would increase the value of mid slots on this ship.

Then, there's the remote rep bonus. People more experienced with it than I am have stated that it's easy to get out of range of unbonused remote reps, and I believe them. Personally, I think it'd be interesting to go whole hog on the remote reps, with a small range bonus (to get them up to 16-25km range) and a rep amount bonus. That would require them to still pretty much fly with the battleships, but it would give some squish room for varied navigation skills or bumping or imperfect pilots. Aligned formations tend to spread out over time as a result of these things. In any event, you need to figure out if it's providing a bonus to remote armor reps only, or some larger set out of remote armor, shield and energy. (It's worth noting that, if they get a ~30km shield rep range, I'm sure they *will* be used to rep POSes.)

Another option for the rep thing is to expedite logi ship balancing and rebalance the remote rep mods while you're at it. Currently, there's an interesting trade-off on T1 logi between smalls (which cycle faster and use less cap) and mediums (which cycle slower and rep a lot more). There isn't nearly as much of a trade-off between mediums and larges on T2 logi: mediums have less range and rep less but are easier to fit and that's it. If we did a logi rebalance sooner rather than later, we could reduce (some) the ridiculous range bonuses on logi ships, rebalance T2 logi to use small and medium reps better than T1 logi, and then be free to rebalance the large remote reps around this ship instead of around whatever the hell they were balanced around originally. I like this idea, but it's a lot more work.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#186 - 2013-12-03 21:41:25 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
how about this for bonuses...


NESTOR

Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level
10% bonus to large energy turret damage per level

Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% bonus to Drone MWD Speed and Optimal range per level
50% bonus to Logistic Drone Transfer Amount per level

Role bonuses:
200% bonus to Remote Capacitor Transfer & Remote Armor Repair Range
50% bonus to Capacitor Transfer amount & Remote Armor Repair Amount

Slot layout: 7H, 5M, 7L; 6 turrets, 0 launchers


still 6 bonuses but pushes more of the powerful bonuses towards higher SP requirements. Creates a dichotomy of being able to use this ship as a Logistical powerhouse right out of the box or a DPS machine with increasing potential where dumping SP into these areas show considerable results.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#187 - 2013-12-03 21:44:03 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
It's hard to come up with suggestions that AREN'T an improvement on the original...

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2013-12-03 21:45:48 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Its an updated Oneiros, flashier, more expensive, bigger "BOOM".

This thing will cost roughly 6 to 800 million isk for a few months at least.

May or maynot be worth it :-0

Scratch that. This is what the dominix should have been.

6 lows, armor resists per level... things a monster.

Kind of like a mix between the Abaddon and the Dominix. Good blend, good design.

The price though.. yeek


SOE LP is worth about 2000 isk/unit if you buy faction probes. If the ship itself costs 1,000,000 LP, it'll cost 2b isk, if the blueprint costs 600,000 LP +150m isk, it still costs over 1.5b, just in LP+isk.

It's going to be expensive, probably at Machariels once were, at the 1b+ range.


Yea I didn't run the numbers on the cost. They'll drop in price as more are produced but the current iteration does not warrant its billion isk+ cost.

Yaay!!!!

BeanBagKing
The Order of Atlas
#189 - 2013-12-03 21:48:58 UTC  |  Edited by: BeanBagKing
I think I'm mostly re-iterating what other people have already said, but I'll take a shot at it and if nothing else, reinforce the opinions.

This ship seems to want to do two things, and it ends up doing both poorly.
1) It wants to be a medic-line ship. Having the DPS and Tank to fight, with emphasis on giving aid.
2) It wants to be an exploration ship built to do combat sites, but lacks the cloak and the self repping.

The problem with #1 is that you're missing out on the range, as other people have pointed out. 8.4k is really close for even just a few ships. If you get several of these trying to do some kind of subcap slowcat fleet it's going to be really hard to keep them from being bumped apart. Moving negates a lot of damage, and even orbiting in a ball it will be easy for ships on opposite sides to get out of range. If you are aligning anywhere you run into even more trouble as different skills and different fits start to affect range. Anyway, my point is that 8.4k is short, and others seem to agree. Plus, if you're going for combat-medic ship, why have the probe bonus and virus strength bonus that suggest solo exporation work?

The problem with #2 is that an exploration ship has to be self supporting. I don't know of any explorers that run around with a fleet. Two people maybe (and then you might use RR), but as others have pointed out, if you're doing that there are probably better fleet combinations to be found. You're giving it a bonus to probing, but without a cloaking device this is pretty much meaningless. I'm not leaving my home system(s) without a cloak to go on explorations and if I'm right next to my POS/Station I'll use a cloaky prober to find sites and then a much cheaper battleship/T3/faction/whatever to run them. Basically, I'm not running around doing PvE in red systems without a cloak. That's a quick way to lose a billion+ isk faction battleship.

Also, I don't really need the virus bonus without a cloak. Again, am I going to go exploring in hostile null and wormholes, solo, without a cloak? If I'm not solo, I can bring any number of other ships that have a bonus to that and have them do the hacking, or an alt if I'm dual boxing.

IMO this ship doesn't seem like it's going to be worth the ISK at the end of the day. It doesn't do any one thing well enough to be worth taking along for that reason. I believe cloaking is broken in this game (not so much the device itself, but the lack of a counter), but that's another discussion. In any case, I'm hesitant to introduce even more cloaky ships, but I feel like if you're going to focus these SOE ships on exploration, this needs to have it, it's worthless as an exploration ship without it. If it's solo/cloaking/sites you want this for give it a cloak and remove the rep bonus, maybe more of a damage bonus per level or an extra high if the cloak will take one up? Or a self rep bonus instead of remote? If you're going this route, a full on blops battleship that can fit blops portals?

On the other hand, if this is meant to be an aid ship in a group setting, then remove the virus and probing bonus and give it rep range (at least double) and... idk, another low or something. Maybe that'll make it OP, but I have the feeling that's going to be required for justifying the price tag. Give it something else, but don't bother trying to make it an exploration ship.

Personally I like the idea of a faction cov-ops/black ops battleship. It seems like it would be fun. Expensive as hell sure, but worth taking solo into other wormholes and nullsec where it can tank higher end sites, or faction/deadspace fitting and really having fun on black ops roams (and risking it too).

At the very least, go back to the drawing board and ask yourselves what ONE thing do we want this battleship to do, and make sure the price tag justifies doing that thing VERY well. Because this just feels like you wanted it to do 2+ things, and to avoid making it OMG OP it only does each of those semi-meh. I get the feeling this is more or less what other players think, and my balance ideas may be WAY off but my general complaint is valid.
Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2013-12-03 21:50:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
@ CCP Rise ~

Like others in this thread, at first i though that giving the SoE battleship a covert ops cloak would be overpowered, so i wasn't surprised when you didn't give it that ability. However, now i'm thinking that, as it doesn't have the capabilities of a Black ops ship, it would be no more OP than any other ship that uses a Covert cloak.

A cover cloak on a Black Ops would it make virtually impossible to catch because it also has a jump drive. If the SoE bs had a covert ops cloak, it would be far easier to catch at a gate than say, a cloaky nulli t3.

With this change, the three SoE ship (frigate, cruiser and bs) together would form a fully functional doctrine, specialized in exploration and covert warfare.

I urge you to seriously consider the above.


Rek Seven
Reaperxvii
Vector Galactic
#191 - 2013-12-03 21:53:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaperxvii
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Note: This is what CCP should have released

I am very relieved to finally show you the cooler Sisters of EVE Logistics Marauder Battleship, the Nestor.

We believed that keeping the covert cloak theme was not going to work for the battleship initially but we've changed our minds. We began to really understand that there is a need for logistics in Eve outside of logistic cruisers and carriers. We are expanding that feel towards a battleship capable logistics vessel. This ship has some massive teeth to it. The Nestor can now fit a covert ops cloaking device, and is now capable of jumping along with gangs of black-ops battleships and T3's. In addition, the ship's covert ops bonus now permits a great deal of logistics to be fielded through the use of black-ops. Please note, that while this ship can jump through a black-ops bridge, it itself is not capable of creating those bridges. That ability is still ship specific to the black ops battleships.

We are getting rid of the exploration feel of the Nestor and removing the previous hacking and probing bonuses and it will receive a bonus to remote armor repair amount, drawing on the Sisters of EVE themes of aid and relief. On top of that, we are increasing the remote repair range by a huge amount. We are also giving it the mobility potential by adding a micro jump drive bonus (it can get onto the field and remove itself from the field as needed). As this ship will most definitely become primary in every combat scenario, we are going to overload its capabilities by extending the Bastion Module to it. We fear we may have completely overpowered this ship as it would essentially become the first ever Faction Black Ops Cloaking Logistic's Marauder ever. This thing can truly defend itself.

Here's the details:

NESTOR

Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% Armor resistances per level

Gallente Battleship Bonuses:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level

Role bonuses:
50% bonus to remote repair amount
350% bonus to remote repair range
100% reduction in CPU requirements for cloaks
70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay

Can fit Covert Ops Cloaking Devices.
Can fit Bastion Module.


I'm sorry that would break the game.
Make it be a faction blackops like the sin, 500% bonus to speed while cloaked, and with the RR bonus. (just range).
Give it the ability to jump and create/use bridges.
Tweek the slot layout so its 5 mids and 7 lows.
Remove the Virus bonus thats kinda dumb. (which you've already done)
and maybe like a small ship maintenance bay since it seems they want it to be a pocket carrier. they also mentioned a medical bay in the first picture but haven't mentioned it here.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#192 - 2013-12-03 21:56:40 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Amarr Battleship Bonuses:
4% armor resistances per level
10% bonus to large energy turret optimal range per level

Gallente Battleship Bonus:
10% drone damage and hitpoints per level
10% drone MWD speed and tracking per level

Role bonuses:
+5 active drones allowed
Multiplies cloaked velocity by 625%

Slot layout: 7H, 5M, 7L, 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100 / 600
Also increase the base velocity somewhat.

Would be my suggestion.

The ship would be able to field 10 medium drones or 10 light drones. Trying to field sentries or heavies wouldn't be advised as the ship only has 100 bandwidth, so you could only field 4 of these. With 3 DDA 2s hobgoblins do 500 DPS, and hammerheads do 800.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Euasked
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#193 - 2013-12-03 21:57:42 UTC
So terrible in so many ways...

Probing and hacking bonuses on a ship that cant cloak? Basically useless if you cant travel safely.

RR bonus on a ship with terrible scanres and will get dropped by dreads as soon as anyone gets wind of more than 1 in a system.

Nothing original...while I agree a covops cloaking BS would likely being very OP...at least it would be unique in some way and not overshadowed by cheaper more effective alternatives.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#194 - 2013-12-03 22:02:39 UTC
First off where is the picture we were promised?

Second everything on it seem fine, but the repair bonus, it just doesn't fit with it. Im not sure what to change it out with but I don't see it.

Looking forward to playing with it on SiSi, and I hope it will be a god exploring, PvE ship. Not sure about PvP
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#195 - 2013-12-03 22:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Seranova Farreach
i feel it seems to be low on the slots and given it has RR bonus it needs range too.
as for its pewpew lazors needs a bit of damage cause if its useing mids for prop and exploration itll be armor tank so it NEEDS the more slots and damage to lazors and/or maybe cap use.
but i honestly would have preferred cov ops insted of RR. or give it a special bonus so its RR becomes 5 to 10km aoe repair so it can use sentrys :P

but in all with RAT ai being lite version of sleeper AI drones will just get popped and lost too easly so FIX DRONES! and then it may be a good ship.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#196 - 2013-12-03 22:07:28 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post .

The rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Eko Fromtv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2013-12-03 22:08:02 UTC
Food for thought CCP Rise:

Remember all the whiners in the Stratios thread? The EFT warriors with impossible fits?

Where are those uber ganking monsters that everyone was afraid of? That's right, nowhere to be seen.

The Strat got nerf'd over nothing. I guess un-nerfing is out of the question, but please don;t listen to the whiners this time.

(Ice) Miner for life.

Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#198 - 2013-12-03 22:08:56 UTC
Euasked wrote:
So terrible in so many ways...

Probing and hacking bonuses on a ship that cant cloak? Basically useless if you cant travel safely.

RR bonus on a ship with terrible scanres and will get dropped by dreads as soon as anyone gets wind of more than 1 in a system.

Nothing original...while I agree a covops cloaking BS would likely being very OP...at least it would be unique in some way and not overshadowed by cheaper more effective alternatives.


maybe they will waste iskies on useing mobile cyno jammers to middle finger those hotdroppers :P

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#199 - 2013-12-03 22:09:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
Rek Seven wrote:
@ CCP Rise ~

Like others in this thread, at first i though that giving the SoE battleship a covert ops cloak would be overpowered, so i wasn't surprised when you didn't give it that ability. However, now i'm thinking that, as it doesn't have the capabilities of a Black ops ship, it would be no more OP that any other ship that uses a Cover cloak.

A cover cloak on a Black Ops would it make virtually impossible to catch because it also has a jump drive. If the SoE bs had a covert ops cloak, it would be far easier to catch at a gate than say, a cloaky nulli t3.

With this change, the three SoE ship (frigate, cruiser and bs) together would form a fully functional doctrine, specialized in exploration and covert warfare.

I urge you to seriously consider the above.


Rek Seven


I think that is pretty much the point. Its odd to say that a tanked dominix with a covops cloak is balanced, but the value of the ship has to warrant the risk of using it in combat.

..... I can see the issue...it is a weird one. Do you give a battleship the ability to covert ops cloak....

That is a big feature.... Maybe giving it just the black ops movement bonus under cloak would be enough.

But a cloaking warpable battleship would basically obsolete every other battleship if it got combat bonuses. I can see the downside to it.

But it might be worth it.

Yaay!!!!

Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2013-12-03 22:10:12 UTC
Interesting..

First, if I see someone say incursions again I'm gonna scream. This is an Armor boat, almost no one runs Armor Incursions. (Sorry TDF... it's true..) Second, no range bonus means a no-go, cause fleets spread out, need more than 10km range.. It's why you don't see Incursion fleets all using Tengu logi. Lastly, even if you did use it in a VG, Logi's in VG's lock up everyone, that generally 10 locks.. It won't be fast enough to lock up someone on an as-needed basis.


I like the RR, even moreso if, as it says, it is a bonus for ALL RR and not just Armor.
I'd like to see the Laser Range bonus replaced with a RR Range bonus.. say 200%..
I'll be honest though, I wish the Domi got the RR bonus.. it's a ship just begging for it.

I'm not sure about the virus bonus.. as said, people are gonna use a dedicated scanning ship, not a BS.. It just seems wasted on me.

I'm happy this isn't a blackops ship.. Cause if you made it one, then no one would train the other ones again.. why bother when for half the time you can get this one.. It's not like Blackops BS's spend a lot of time in combat themselves, and it's not like they are way more powerful or tanky than a T1 BS..

Obviously giving it a CovOps would just be OP..


End of the day, I like some it, I'm just not sure as a package it's something I'd want to use..