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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Shivanthar
#7621 - 2013-11-13 15:08:00 UTC
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
... crappy vargur ...

Why would that be? The vargur deals no more damage than a maesltrom.

And the capability of moving of normal battleships result in effective SUPERIOR tracking to the bastion user.

The only PVP usage for mareauders will be killing ECM filled POSs in high sec.


Nope - my sentry Domi does more DPS, better damage choice, and can kill small stuff better. Oh, and it can be RR'd while doing so.

Still the sad panda waiting to see why Vargur was left with the ****** stick.


Every one of my 5 posts tells this, they simply don't get it.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7622 - 2013-11-13 15:18:00 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
Generally when I got stuck in my limited English vocabulary, somebody who understands what the hell has happened jumps out from the crowd and explains things in a neat way. This proved to be correct with explaining the relationship of "raiding" and "speed" in one of the past pages.

Let me explain in another way;

If you look at eve wiki, siege module's explanation is nearly as same as bastion's. It is for sure that bastion module is inspired from siege module.

When you engage bastion, you get 100 percent same penalties with siege modules.
When you engage bastion, you won't get 100 percent same benefits as you get with siege modules.

Design team tried to find more fitting bonuses for BS class hulls. However, not being able to get RR, they are very pity against concentrated fire. CCP exactly wants this, they want Marauders die in a fleet combat when they're primaried. What they forgot is the price/performance ratio.

How much time it take for a dread in siege mode to die in a concencrated capital fire (except doomsday)? I know this is very relative to combat, but there is an idea. Let's say that other dreads giving the most damage to them, which are their price equavalent.

So the basic thinking is if let's say 10 non-siege dreads are shooting one siege dread, it is 10 isk shooting at 1 isk.
If 10 BS' shooting at 1 marauder, it is 10 isk shooting at ~10 isk. But CCP's flaw here is that they want Marauders to go down fast! Just for this price/effectiveness ratio, I find their idea as flawed.

The problem is, these marauders are not dreads exactly, but penaltized in the same way as them when engaged into their specialized role, while having much lesser EHP than dreads in order to withstand BS fire.

only you are wrong. you are not taking into account the range bonuses and 30%omni resist on shields armor and hull that increases its ehp. these are unique bonuses that are not found on siege or triage. also not the same penalties apply either (tracking and locked targets or no drones). that was my point about triage. just like triage is similar to but not the same as siege, bastion is similar but not the same as siege.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Shivanthar
#7623 - 2013-11-13 15:21:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Anize Oramara wrote:
Shivanthar wrote:
Generally when I got stuck in my limited English vocabulary, somebody who understands what the hell has happened jumps out from the crowd and explains things in a neat way. This proved to be correct with explaining the relationship of "raiding" and "speed" in one of the past pages.

Let me explain in another way;

If you look at eve wiki, siege module's explanation is nearly as same as bastion's. It is for sure that bastion module is inspired from siege module.

When you engage bastion, you get 100 percent same penalties with siege modules.
When you engage bastion, you won't get 100 percent same benefits as you get with siege modules.

Design team tried to find more fitting bonuses for BS class hulls. However, not being able to get RR, they are very pity against concentrated fire. CCP exactly wants this, they want Marauders die in a fleet combat when they're primaried. What they forgot is the price/performance ratio.

How much time it take for a dread in siege mode to die in a concencrated capital fire (except doomsday)? I know this is very relative to combat, but there is an idea. Let's say that other dreads giving the most damage to them, which are their price equavalent.

So the basic thinking is if let's say 10 non-siege dreads are shooting one siege dread, it is 10 isk shooting at 1 isk.
If 10 BS' shooting at 1 marauder, it is 10 isk shooting at ~10 isk. But CCP's flaw here is that they want Marauders to go down fast! Just for this price/effectiveness ratio, I find their idea as flawed.

The problem is, these marauders are not dreads exactly, but penaltized in the same way as them when engaged into their specialized role, while having much lesser EHP than dreads in order to withstand BS fire.

only you are wrong. you are not taking into account the range bonuses and 30%omni resist on shields armor and hull that increases its ehp. these are unique bonuses that are not found on siege or triage. also not the same penalties apply either (tracking and locked targets or no drones). that was my point about triage. just like triage is similar to but not the same as siege, bastion is similar but not the same as siege.


And, that is the reason people call proposed Marauders as dreads because they more look like siege moduled dreads.
My idea here is not to perma counter-argue you actually. Quish McQuiddy's post after ours tell exactly my point. Damage perspective is equal to crap.

And by telling "you're wrong", I accept it as a counter-argument to siege-bastion similarities, but not performance ratio analysis.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Shivanthar
#7624 - 2013-11-13 15:26:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Another point is this:
%30 shield resists ofc adds some ehp, but it is like saying "I'll give you a huge %30 increase in your 100$ salary!"

Designing them this way doesn't add needed buff. But it also doesn't fit very well. You can tank 2-3 ships OK (until you ran out cap boosters), but it is no way as accomplished as a fielded expensive BS hull. Either it has to withstand more damage or it has to do more damage.

You saw my "fun" proposal, I bet. It might turn out to be bad idea at first sight, but people is shifting actually. Marauders need more damage when in bastion. Applied damage to be more exact. Otherwise a domi simply over-dps it.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7625 - 2013-11-13 15:26:56 UTC
you said they were 100% the same while that is a lie. just calling you out on you BS.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Rexxorr
Perkone
Caldari State
#7626 - 2013-11-13 15:28:41 UTC
It seems to me, that the ship has sailed, Marauder bonuses are what they are.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#7627 - 2013-11-13 15:33:20 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:


When you engage bastion, you get 100 percent same penalties with siege modules.
When you engage bastion, you won't get 100 percent same benefits as you get with siege modules.


Yeah, but one is a T2 Battleship that now specializes in tanking and the other is not.

Just because both can enter some kind of reinforced mode doesn't mean that they're the same.

Look at all existing reinforced modes (a.k.a. bastion, siege, triage and the rorqal thingy) that are now available for ships, all they do is make your ship immoble and enhance any predefined ability the ship is supposed to pecialize in.

For Marauders that's tanking.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Shivanthar
#7628 - 2013-11-13 15:33:40 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
you said they were 100% the same while that is a lie. just calling you out on you BS.


Omg you're still there.

I said you get %100 as same penalties as siege module.

Sorry to miss -%75 scan resolution. FFS

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#7629 - 2013-11-13 15:35:39 UTC
Golem -

High -
- Cruise Missile Launcher II - Scourge Fury Cruise Missile, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
- Cruise Missile Launcher II - Scourge Fury Cruise Missile, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
- Cruise Missile Launcher II - Scourge Fury Cruise Missile, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
- Cruise Missile Launcher II - Scourge Fury Cruise Missile, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
- Bastion Mode I
- Tractor Beam II
- Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
- Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I

Medium -
- Gist C-Type Large Shield Booster or Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
- Shield Boost Amplifier II
- Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
- EM Ward Amplifier II
- Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation or Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
- Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation
- Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation

Low -
- Ballistic Control System II
- Ballistic Control System II
- Ballistic Control System II
- Ballistic Control System II

Rig -
- Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
- Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II

Drone -
- Warrior x5
- Hammerhead x5

Better
Shivanthar
#7630 - 2013-11-13 15:40:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Debora Tsung wrote:
Shivanthar wrote:


When you engage bastion, you get 100 percent same penalties with siege modules.
When you engage bastion, you won't get 100 percent same benefits as you get with siege modules.


Yeah, but one is a T2 Battleship that now specializes in tanking and the other is not.

Just because both can enter some kind of reinforced mode doesn't mean that they're the same.

Look at all existing reinforced modes (a.k.a. bastion, siege, triage and the rorqal thingy) that are now available for ships, all they do is make your ship immoble and enhance any predefined ability the ship is supposed to pecialize in.

For Marauders that's tanking.


Dreads also get tanking bonus when in siege. But since their ehp is so high already, they get more of a active tanking bonus rather than resists. Check here

When in bastion mode I also propose damage projection bonus, it doesn't have to be %700 as dreads. %100 would be more realistic, however, I simply propose adding turret/launcher hardpoints to marauders since they will increase options for sandbox.

Edit: In the very first post:

Quote:

In deployed mode (we call it bastion), their hulls transform (they will have fancy visible animations like the Rorqual does when deploying) and they become fixed weapon placement with a bonus to resistances, tanking, damage projection and receiving EW immunity. However, like Dreadnoughts, they cannot be remote assisted or even move when that happens. They also cannot use Micro Jump Drives in that mode.


Which negates your argument of
Quote:
Yeah, but one is a T2 Battleship that now specializes in tanking and the other is not.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#7631 - 2013-11-13 15:45:41 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:

Dreads also get tanking bonus when in siege. But since their ehp is so high already, they get more of a active tanking bonus rather than resists. Check here

When in bastion mode I also propose damage projection bonus, it doesn't have to be %700 as dreads. %100 would be more realistic, however, I simply propose adding turret/launcher hardpoints to marauders since they will increase options for sandbox.


As I said,

One is a T2 Battleship, highly spezialized, the very epitome of subcap tanking.

The other is not.

It does not matter how much the bastion module may look like a siege module, it's not a siege module and it should not be a siege module. Unless you want to use some kind of fuel for your bastion stuff.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Shivanthar
#7632 - 2013-11-13 15:47:16 UTC
Marauders in bastion mode are really headed as the same way as dreads.

Their seperation of concern is target oppurtunity. Dreads in siege mainly designed for high-hp structures, while marauders in bastion is getting design to go against other ships. Their module differences are simply reflection of this seperation. Nothing more.

I find Marauders projection is a little bit "lacking" in its current state.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Kito Yularen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7633 - 2013-11-13 16:24:47 UTC
Hell ***** wrote:
So much of this going on in this thread it almost makes me wish CCP would nerf the Marauders to hell and back just to give all you whiny argumentative little bitches something real to moan over.

We're not whining, nor arguing. We're debating.

Like true internet mentlegen.


*smokes pipe*

If you ever look at the sky, doubting the existence of other worlds, just know that somewhere a creature looks up at its sky, doubting you.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7634 - 2013-11-13 16:33:55 UTC
Kito Yularen wrote:
Hell ***** wrote:
So much of this going on in this thread it almost makes me wish CCP would nerf the Marauders to hell and back just to give all you whiny argumentative little bitches something real to moan over.

We're not whining, nor arguing. We're debating.

Like true internet mentlegen.


*smokes pipe*


there is a reason why dev dont talk in here anymore. i think they realize there will always be whiners even if they did everything people ask for.
Kito Yularen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7635 - 2013-11-13 16:36:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Kito Yularen
Here's the problem with not giving Marauders a damage bonus of some sort in my honest opinion:

Any ship can put up a tank. Albeit not like the revamped Marauder, but still SOME tank. The problem is that so many fleets now put an emphasis on dps projection and mobility that without the ability to apply a dps that sets it apart from other sub-capital ships It will just be a sitting duck against probably 75% of the fleet docrtines in EVE. Harassment was it's supposedly designed role, but you don't use battleships to harass an enemy fleet. You use battleships to kill big things, because they're so slow. Take away ALL mobility, and anyone that so much as sniffs a bastioned Marauder will only see an expensive killmail.
Harrassment should be left to fast and nimble ships like HAC's and AF's. Battleships are designed purely for two things: Damage and Tank. Not one, but both.

I know it's silly to just shrink down the siege module for Marauder use, but it needs some form of a damage buff, or else it will just be a pretty floating tank that can't do anything else. Reduce it's tracking, whatever. But I have to agree with the guy that said this current design just fits a glorified ECM killer role which can be done with drones or any other ship.

Mer88 wrote:
there is a reason why dev dont talk in here anymore. i think they realize there will always be whiners even if they did everything people ask for.


Very true, but this is a high-priority topic. I'm 100% positive that CCP has already finalized the marauder revamp by now. I hope you don't think I'm complaining as it's not my intention-I just enjoy this "debate" (argument).

I do believe what I say, though. Perhaps I'm not the most fluent PvP'er so whatever I say is speculation, but some of it's based off experience. Mostly in SiSi.

If you ever look at the sky, doubting the existence of other worlds, just know that somewhere a creature looks up at its sky, doubting you.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#7636 - 2013-11-13 20:40:21 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
The Djego wrote:
Since I still didn't got a answer on it, is it really to much to ask for keeping the current marauders ingame as 2. marauder ship? Outside of bastion, what is not useful in hulls you want to move a lot or while relaying on remote repair, the new ones are worse for most applications and the changes make the hulls pointless in nearly every of the old niches where they where competitive or slightly better than faction BS.



I am not aware of any situations where a marauder is better than a faction/pirate when provided with what is currently live on TQ.


Spider tanking with other marauders and logis, Incursions(combining high utility with 90% webs), big cargo to move a lot of ammo and spare fitting with you(very useful for switching agents often or Incs), lower ammo use what is useful out of empire by reducing logistical tasks. Kronos in particular is better than a vindi as rail+sentry sniper, by the higher lock range and utility slots for drone links and better cap/fitting to handle mwd/active tank fittings plus rail. Paladin is overall comparable in performance with the NM and if you really utilize the web bonus a lot better up close. Vargur lacks something that separates it form the Mach(again posted it multiple times in the thread) and the Golem needs a makeover or trops need one, as it stands the CNR will be the better torp platform what is utterly bad from the game design pov.

Jake Sake wrote:
The Djego wrote:
Since I still didn't got a answer on it, is it really to much to ask for keeping the current marauders ingame as 2. marauder ship? ....


Obviously not. It just brings too many strings attached. Same bonuses on both ship types. Same models. Pretty similar role (just different approach to it).


Would you please define "strings attached"? The hulls are ingame for like 6 years now without anybody really complaining about them. It is a simple copy past job, keeping the hulls ingame as zero downsides. They don't have the same bonuses(both Kronos and Paladin have different ones), the Golem needs a specific makeover(more torp range, higher speed, torpedo explosion velocity bonus and maybe even another low for a nano), Vargur needs something that separate it form the mach better and the Kronos needs a extra sentry optimal/tracking bonus + 125/275 to stand out as a sentry/rail platform.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Placibo son Son
souchons corp
#7637 - 2013-11-13 21:52:49 UTC
My main can fly both a mach and a vargur very well.

Right now the big difference between that 2 is this

- Damage on the mach is higher
- lock time(scan res) on the mach is much higher so lock time is faster and i can kill stuff faster
- buffer is higher on the mach
- signature radius is larger on the vargur (iam bigger i get locked faster)
- mass is larger in the vargur
- speed of the mach is higher
- vargur has limited fitting options with lower power and cpu than the mach
- vargur only has 2 rig slots
- vargur shield bonus boosts a lot more, but is bigger and slower and takes more damage
- vargur has nice tracking, but it takes longer to lock frigs and any advantage is diminished
- vargur has more resists and less buffer

The only thing the vargur has that i like is a large cargo hold and some spare high slots for messing about with. then again i do have a noctis as well tho seeing as they designed that ship to do that role.

i dont understand why the vargur costs so much isk and so much skill points when the mach provides on par if not better results. i have seen and will welcome some of the changes introduced here,

When its all said and done. solo play will probs be slower, while over tanked for anything high sec. incursions wont take a vargur because as it stands it does less damage than the mach. I always though incursions was a type of "endgame" PVE for players. Then why would a ship which is designed for PVE, not be optimized for "endgame" PVE. ?

Common answer is that the mach done it first, it was quicker to get into and does more damage. Seems very silly to
Kane Fenris
NWP
#7638 - 2013-11-13 23:00:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
Golem -

High -
- Cruise Missile Launcher II - Scourge Fury Cruise Missile, Scourge Precision Cruise Missile, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise
....
- Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II

Drone -
- Warrior x5
- Hammerhead x5

Better


3x CN ballistics
2x RF painter
use the utility highs for something usefull like a drone range amp or some other stuff
fit ab+mjd or cap booster+Micro warp
deadspace/officer mod em ward and adaptive.

then its better
Sitting Bull Lakota
Poppins and Company
#7639 - 2013-11-13 23:18:39 UTC
I've never flown a marauder.

But, looking at the description, I would like to put my own thoughts on what I'd like to see in a pvp version of a ship "designed for prolonged deployment in hostile space."

1) A Bastion bonus to the range of warp disruptors, something like 100km or similar.
Reasoning- Bastion makes an already big slow ship, bigger and immobile. It's hard to specialize in harassing tactics far behind enemy lines, if you are big and slow and can't hold down anything you try to take out.

2) Marauder roll ability to self fit in space, similar to carriers.
Reasoning- A long deployment ship is going to need to be more versatile than the average spacechip. Having the ability to quickly (and without needing to deploy an easily scannable deployable depot) switch between combat, scanning, and travel fits would be useful.

3) Marauder roll ability to reprocess ore (albeit inefficiently)and manufacture ammunition and cap booster charges.
Yeah it's wild and crazy, but I'm looking forward to a Marilyn's Marauders version of pvp that takes long deployments in hostile space to the extreme.

As long as y'all are begging for damage bonuses, speed boosts, and a complete overhaul for the vargur and torpedoes; I thought I'd go ahead and mail my Christmas wish list in as well.




Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#7640 - 2013-11-14 02:16:08 UTC
My wish is that we move on to the next group that's getting nerfed, er... "rebalanced".

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.