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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#7441 - 2013-11-09 08:36:25 UTC
Julie Thorne wrote:
I have a few suggestions, tell me what you think:

1. Bastion range bonus: 15% optimal, 30% falloff, 20% missile speed, 20% flight time, no stacking penalty

First range is current SISI build, 2nd is with my suggestion. (All data is from EFT, therefore may be incorrect. Also my apologies, if it is hard to read.)

Pulse Paladin with 2x TC II, Conflag/INMF: 31.6km + 18.7km vs 30.8km + 21.3km (-0.8km + 2.6km)
Tachyon Paladin with 2x TC II, INMF: 69.6km + 46.8km vs 67.8km + 53.3km (-1.8km + 6.5km)
Blaster Kronos 1x TC II, 1x TE II, 5% falloff implant, Null: 18.8km + 40.5km vs 18.1km + 45.6km (-0.7km + 5.1km)
Blaster Kronos 1x TC II, 1x TE II, 5% falloff implant, CNAM: 6.7km + 28.9km vs 6.5km vs 32.5km (-0.2km + 3.6km)
Vargur 2x TC II, 5% falloff implant, RF Fusion: 4.6km + 70.8km vs 4.5km vs 80.5km (-0.1km + 9.7km)
Vargur 2x TC II, 1x TE II 5% falloff implant, RF Fusion: 4.7km + 74.8km vs 4.7km + 89.7km (0km + 14.9km)
Golem 2x Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II, 5% missile velocity implant, rage torp: 43.4km vs 53.9km (+10.5km)
Golem 2x Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II, 5% missile velocity implant, CN torp: 52.1km vs 64.7km (+12.6km)

Paladin stays practically the same, Kronos gets a bit more falloff, Vargur and torp Golem finally see decent increases in range. Bastion gives twice as much falloff than optimal in line with TCs and recently rebalanced TEs. Ships which can (and need to) fit more than 2 range mods are not penalised for that any more.

2. Increase the PG requirement of bastion to 1100.

Tachyon Paladin is getting too good. It will be much better than the Nightmare. Even with this change it could still fit everything but with small compromises. Rest of the ships - including pulse Paladin - are unaffected.

3. Reverse the speed nerf. (It is too big of a nerf for the Vargur.)


Something along the lines of this.

Current bastion with it's stacking nerf PISSES all over the Vargur and Golem SO BADLY(Torp Golem obv)

It's a big "F YOU" in the face for those ships.

Tweak the freaking bonuses and make them not stacking penalized and give me my 75/125 dronebay back on my Kronos

These are STILL after 372 pages and like 2 months the biggest pile of **** changes to this game during the last 2 years.

Also. Vargur and Kronos is overnerfed in the speed department.

Why the frack is the Paladin almost able to keep up with a Vargur? which is designed to use AC's(yes I know it has grid for Arty but they're beoynd **** for pve)


Oh. and they all still SUCK outside of bastion. get your **** together.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#7442 - 2013-11-09 10:31:38 UTC
Doed wrote:

Oh. and they all still SUCK outside of bastion. get your **** together.


Outside of bastion the kronos warps faster, gets more range and a better tank than its t1 counterpart as well as having that mjd bonus. It is an interesting option for fleet work.
Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#7443 - 2013-11-09 10:51:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Doed wrote:

Oh. and they all still SUCK outside of bastion. get your **** together.


Outside of bastion the kronos warps faster, gets more range and a better tank than its t1 counterpart as well as having that mjd bonus. It is an interesting option for fleet work.


Yes, it's better than a T1 mega at almost 10 times the price unless the enemy has a Griffin. Or you fly a 7 low 3 mid Kronos(Mandatory mid for ECCM to get it on par with normal t1 ships)

It's also A LOT slower than the Mega.

It's ass. and at 40km it deals less damage than it does on live.

Oh. and it's stationary if you want to use this bastion stuff. which will be so stacking nerfed on ALL the Marauders they might aswell just take away the bonus.

Good job. (Sarcasm)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#7444 - 2013-11-09 11:20:46 UTC
Julie Thorne wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

Inb4 someone says "Moving around in a Marauder is the wrong way to fly them now".


Luckily even Ytterbium would disagree with that argument: :)

CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Having some battleship NPCs sitting at long range? (quite rare) At more than 50km, use MJD, turn around, then MWD. Less than 50km, just MWD.


I am banking on him finally realising that it is a bit unbalanced that all marauders have practically the same DPS and speed with MWD - but some of them have to move closer to apply that damage.



THAT.. If the vargur has a much inferiro damage projection (example0) it needs to keep its superior speed.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Julie Thorne
Project Insanity
#7445 - 2013-11-09 12:12:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Julie Thorne
Kagura Nikon wrote:
[
THAT.. If the vargur has a much inferiro damage projection (example0) it needs to keep its superior speed.


This whole speed nerf makes less sense to me the more I think about it.

It is not enough that long range ships can just go into bastion and enjoy the perks (EW immunity, ungodly tank, better range) ALL THE TIME, the speed of short range ships is getting nerfed, which means they will spend even less time in bastion mode. (EDIT:) Even if CCP kept the Vargur's speed as it is on TQ, it still couldn't take as much advantage of the bastion module as the Paladin. Same goes for the Kronos.

I would love to hear someone from CCP make sense of this.
Sarka Llerious
Oook
#7446 - 2013-11-09 13:39:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarka Llerious
Julie Thorne wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
[
THAT.. If the vargur has a much inferiro damage projection (example0) it needs to keep its superior speed.


This whole speed nerf makes less sense to me the more I think about it.

...

I would love to hear someone from CCP make sense of this.


Everyone ready to join in the chorus?

"It rebalances the gameplay to make for a more rebalanced game, in preparation for future rebalancing." (repeat, ad nauseum)

...

Oh, you wanted it to make sense OUTSIDE the bubble?!
Tsukinosuke
Id Est
RAZOR Alliance
#7447 - 2013-11-09 13:55:55 UTC
still "torp golem" or "slow vargur" things??? drop it, enough.. it is NOT a specific fitting rebalance, it is fckn broken marauder(T2) class rebalance.. and after all, they are now having better hull and bonuses.. and plus a bastion module for only marauders, it is all up to you "use or not"..

look over the market a bit, you will find the answer..

anti-antagonist "not a friend of enemy of antagonist"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#7448 - 2013-11-09 14:57:11 UTC
Doed wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Doed wrote:

Oh. and they all still SUCK outside of bastion. get your **** together.


Outside of bastion the kronos warps faster, gets more range and a better tank than its t1 counterpart as well as having that mjd bonus. It is an interesting option for fleet work.


Yes, it's better than a T1 mega at almost 10 times the price unless the enemy has a Griffin. Or you fly a 7 low 3 mid Kronos(Mandatory mid for ECCM to get it on par with normal t1 ships)

It's also A LOT slower than the Mega.

It's ass. and at 40km it deals less damage than it does on live.

Oh. and it's stationary if you want to use this bastion stuff. which will be so stacking nerfed on ALL the Marauders they might aswell just take away the bonus.

Good job. (Sarcasm)


Cost is never factored into game balance.

It also will not be needing ECCM for fleet work and at 40km it will be doing more damage thanks to its longer range than on TQ. It is not getting any nerf at all to its guns firepower.

When in bastion the kronos will project blasters all the way out to 90-100km.
Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#7449 - 2013-11-09 15:11:02 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Doed wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Doed wrote:

Oh. and they all still SUCK outside of bastion. get your **** together.


Outside of bastion the kronos warps faster, gets more range and a better tank than its t1 counterpart as well as having that mjd bonus. It is an interesting option for fleet work.


Yes, it's better than a T1 mega at almost 10 times the price unless the enemy has a Griffin. Or you fly a 7 low 3 mid Kronos(Mandatory mid for ECCM to get it on par with normal t1 ships)

It's also A LOT slower than the Mega.

It's ass. and at 40km it deals less damage than it does on live.

Oh. and it's stationary if you want to use this bastion stuff. which will be so stacking nerfed on ALL the Marauders they might aswell just take away the bonus.

Good job. (Sarcasm)


Cost is never factored into game balance.

It also will not be needing ECCM for fleet work and at 40km it will be doing more damage thanks to its longer range than on TQ. It is not getting any nerf at all to its guns firepower.

When in bastion the kronos will project blasters all the way out to 90-100km.



It's losing a sentry drone.

And noone will fly these in any sorts of pvp fleets.

Esp not "sniping fleets"

And no, it won't be doing more damage at 40km.

Go be bad elsewhere.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#7450 - 2013-11-09 15:15:47 UTC
Doed wrote:


It's losing a sentry drone.



And? In most fleets I never get to launch drones anyway.

Doed wrote:
And noone will fly these in any sorts of pvp fleets.


I sure will be for mega fleets and most likely for cruiser and perhaps even frig fleets.

Doed wrote:
Esp not "sniping fleets"

Rail fit mega fleets it will be better.

Doed wrote:
And no, it won't be doing more damage at 40km.

Go be bad elsewhere.


Blaster fit it will be doing a lot more damage at 40km.

Before calling other people bad you should probably test these ships before commenting on them because you clearly haven't
Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#7451 - 2013-11-09 15:27:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Doed
baltec1 wrote:
Doed wrote:


It's losing a sentry drone.



And? In most fleets I never get to launch drones anyway.

Doed wrote:
And noone will fly these in any sorts of pvp fleets.


I sure will be for mega fleets and most likely for cruiser and perhaps even frig fleets.

Doed wrote:
Esp not "sniping fleets"

Rail fit mega fleets it will be better.

Doed wrote:
And no, it won't be doing more damage at 40km.

Go be bad elsewhere.


Blaster fit it will be doing a lot more damage at 40km.

Before calling other people bad you should probably test these ships before commenting on them because you clearly haven't


So with blasters which will be **** at 40km with the crappy ass stacking penalties it will do more damage?

HOLY **** THAT IS AMAZINGLY GOOD!

They got some buffs, but they also got some rather silly nerfs.

Fact remains that bastion just giving stacking penalized bonuses that doesn\t really allow some of the ships to reach decent range is just crap. Torp golem will remain inferior to a CNR unless there\s a million ships jamming. NPC defends will hurt the CM golems dps too much. And vargur won\t be able to reach far enough with AC\s to warrant using it.

Remove stacking penalties and tweak the bonuses some to make Torp Golem and AC Vargur worth flying.

Oh yeah. and Vargur and Kronos speed nerf is simply pathetic. they\re barely faster than the other 2.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#7452 - 2013-11-09 15:33:02 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Doed wrote:


So with blasters which will be **** at 40km with the crappy ass stacking penalties it will do more damage?

HOLY **** THAT IS AMAZINGLY GOOD!


10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)

Its 10% better outside of bastion per level. That is a big buff to the range of blasters and their damage projection.
Doed wrote:

Fact remains that bastion just giving stacking penalized bonuses that doesn\t really allow some of the ships to reach decent range is just crap.


90-100km blasters is crap now?
DSpite Culhach
#7453 - 2013-11-09 16:03:39 UTC
Just on a sidenote : The new deployable "Mobile Depot" structure

If they can be deployed very fast, wont that mean that it will make our Marauders a lot more flexible? We have very large cargo holds to start, so we can carry full refits, we are going to anchor next to it anyway, meaning we can switch from say Cruise to RHML's to clean up, etc etc

I mean, I can see myself putting a bunch of tractors and salvagers in the hold, together with a deployable tractor module, put that out right away to start pulling, then when everything is dead refit to "full Noctis" to do a fast cleanup.

If that Depot also allows to refit Drones, I mean, we can carry a TON of spare drones as well.

Am I missing something? Cause it sounds pretty cool.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#7454 - 2013-11-09 16:19:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
Mina Sebiestar wrote:

They will not do tracking on pali because it will become basically better nightmare.

Yes, if you want tracking, use nightmare.
If they do this to paladin, paladin will be better then nightmare with tracking bonus.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#7455 - 2013-11-09 16:27:27 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
Just on a sidenote : The new deployable "Mobile Depot" structure

If they can be deployed very fast, wont that mean that it will make our Marauders a lot more flexible? We have very large cargo holds to start, so we can carry full refits, we are going to anchor next to it anyway, meaning we can switch from say Cruise to RHML's to clean up, etc etc

I mean, I can see myself putting a bunch of tractors and salvagers in the hold, together with a deployable tractor module, put that out right away to start pulling, then when everything is dead refit to "full Noctis" to do a fast cleanup.

If that Depot also allows to refit Drones, I mean, we can carry a TON of spare drones as well.

Am I missing something? Cause it sounds pretty cool.



arent they 2 different structures? one for tractor one for refit?
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#7456 - 2013-11-09 18:07:58 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
Just on a sidenote : The new deployable "Mobile Depot" structure

If that Depot also allows to refit Drones, I mean, we can carry a TON of spare drones as well.

Am I missing something? Cause it sounds pretty cool.


Yes it's like a normal refitting service on titan, pos or carrier.
So yes, you can refit drones as you wish.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7457 - 2013-11-09 19:22:24 UTC
The mobile depo, as i have tested it, invalidates 90% of all the whiners in this thread.

gf ccp.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#7458 - 2013-11-09 20:02:25 UTC
When do we get T-2 bastion module ?

As we have T-2 Siege and T-2 Triage modules it would be fair to get T-2 Bastion module as well.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7459 - 2013-11-09 20:24:54 UTC
Spc One wrote:
When do we get T-2 bastion module ?

As we have T-2 Siege and T-2 Triage modules it would be fair to get T-2 Bastion module as well.


There are a lot of modules that don't have T2 versions.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Julie Thorne
Project Insanity
#7460 - 2013-11-09 21:18:05 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
The mobile depo, as i have tested it, invalidates 90% of all the whiners in this thread.

gf ccp.


I would love to take your word for that, but you posted earlier in this thread such terrible mission completion times (with which you seemed to be content with), that objectively your assessment of the situation isn't worth much.