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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

First post First post
Author
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1161 - 2011-11-15 18:04:47 UTC
Phoenix Torp wrote:
Time for the Mega. It has 5 Tracking Enhancer, 1 Mag Stab and 1 Track Computer. Also Large Hybrid rigs:
Locus Coordinator
Collision Accelerator
Ambit Extension

Belonging to EFT, Neutron Blaster Cannon II stats:

Activation 13.65
RoF 5.07465s
Optimal 6761.8379
Damage Modifier 9.92537
Falloff 27125.988m
Tracking 0.09646

Belonging to SiSi:

Activation 4.41 -67.69%
RoF 2.9s -42.85%
Optimal 4503m -33.4%
Damage Modifier 4.91143631065 -50.51%
Falloff 16190m -40.32%
Tracking 0.126377480832 +31.01%

It's definitive: Neutron is broken XD



Looks like the exact stats with antimatter loaded.
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
#1162 - 2011-11-16 09:11:45 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Phoenix Torp wrote:
Time for the Mega. It has 5 Tracking Enhancer, 1 Mag Stab and 1 Track Computer. Also Large Hybrid rigs:
Locus Coordinator
Collision Accelerator
Ambit Extension

Belonging to EFT, Neutron Blaster Cannon II stats:

Activation 13.65
RoF 5.07465s
Optimal 6761.8379
Damage Modifier 9.92537
Falloff 27125.988m
Tracking 0.09646

Belonging to SiSi:

Activation 4.41 -67.69%
RoF 2.9s -42.85%
Optimal 4503m -33.4%
Damage Modifier 4.91143631065 -50.51%
Falloff 16190m -40.32%
Tracking 0.126377480832 +31.01%

It's definitive: Neutron is broken XD



Looks like the exact stats with antimatter loaded.


Both situations, either EFT or SiSi, have AM loaded.
However, the raw data in EveMon and market on SiSi states clear that the stats of the guns were what they put in the Dev Blog.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp

WisdomLikeSilence
BurgerkingTM
#1163 - 2011-11-16 10:41:06 UTC
NErf Scorch. Nerf Autocannons. problem solved.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1164 - 2011-11-16 12:25:16 UTC
WisdomLikeSilence wrote:
NErf Scorch. Nerf Autocannons. problem solved.


Number of clients nerf seems it's the only way to make things happen around here Lol
joomla alacard
Indifferent Bastards
#1165 - 2011-11-16 20:29:56 UTC
(Note: please excuse the base stats if they are off - hopefully not drastically so - but I think I did the math right)

The Javelin improvement is definitely the shining star; however, even though I was initially very excited to hear about the hybrid turret changes, and ship velocity/inertia changes, the fittings that I can think of off the top of my head for a number of ships still seem to be limited damage-wise.
For example, in a ship like the ferox, turrets are it's life-blood, but fitting all h.n. blasters has been possible, but at the cost of multiple lows just for enough powergrid when also concerned about having a decent passive shield. However, even when trying to maximize damage at the cost of ehp, the dps & ehp combo is not on par with other ships of the class.
Hybrids will definitely be more effective as far as tracking and cap consumption is concerned (which is a blessing!) I was intrigued to see the difference this would make, so I looked up the base stats of two turrets to compare; heavy neutron blaster II and 425 autocannon II. According to EVElopedia, a comparison of the tracking of the HNBII vs 425ACII looks like this:

HNB II: 0.1000 rad/s --> (tracking 5) --> 0.1250 rad/s
425 AC II: 0.1056 rad/s --> 0.1320 rad/s (+ 5.6% speed of HNBII)

...not much of a difference. And honestly, I always thought of the superior tracking as insult on top of injury, since BC vs BC at a standstill; ACs slap harder and because of sig radius/terrible agility/velocity, outside of a couple ships, breaking their tracking isn't even an option, since the hybrids would break first (not to mention, sometimes you encounter 220 vulcans).

With the tracking boost to the HNBII, it gets a little more interesting:

HNB II: 0.1000 rad/s --> 0.1200 (+20%) --> (tracking 5) --> 0.1500 rad/s (+ 13.7% speed of 425ACII)
425 AC II: 0.1056 rad/s --> 0.1320 rad/s

Wait...agile hybrid turrets?! Nice.
Now, let's look at frigate-class turrets: Light Neutron Blaster II vs 200mm Autocannon II...

LNB II: 0.3165 rad/s --> (tracking 5) --> 0.3956 --> 0.3956 rad/s
200 AC II: 0.3150 rad/s --> 0.3938 --> (+7.5%/lvl * 5 = 37.5%) --> 0.5414 rad/s (+36.86% faster!)

Wow. I, for one, didn't realize how much faster the rifter and dramiel track compared to their caldari/gallente antitheses. And let's be honest with ourselves... that's what most pvp frigate lone wolfs (wolves?) fly.

After the +20% (0.3165 --> 0.3798 rad/s):

LNB II: 0.3798 rad/s --> (tracking 5) --> 0.4748 --> 0.4748 rad/s
200 AC II: 0.3150 rad/s --> 0.3938 --> (+7.5%/lvl * 5 = 37.5%) --> 0.5414 rad/s (+14.03% faster)

Hmm...autocannons on certain ships (the typical contenders) are still quite a bit faster, but not nearly as big of a difference as before. Take into account the speed boost and/or inertia decrease on some ships, and they might turn out to be more of a threat.
Also, notice that the tracking of the LNB II is now 20.57% faster than the comparable AC without the 7.5%/lvl tracking boost Shocked!

Even with these changes, I am skeptical that this will do much to shake up the current pecking order of base bc ship hulls, but it might have a moderate effect for cruisers. Like i'm sure many others have said, some ships just don't have a niche cut out for them. (You can polish a turd all you want, but in the end, you still want to flush it down the toilet.) However, the affect on the frig vs frig arena could be substantial. Aside from hybrid vs projectile, I am also curious to see what will happen to the potential for a nos/neut to be squeezed in to some fits that have up until now seemed to be stuck at 90% of potential. Also, wondering if that nos/neut will actually be effective at all, given far less cap use and MUCH better (comparatively) tracking.
Not to put a sour note at the end, but none of these changes seem to make a dent in the sense of security passive fit/missile users have ...dra...*cough*...kes...*cough*.
Get ready for a Dramiel black friday sale. Okay, these changes aren't really going to make anyone in their right mind want to abandon their little cheap-as-hell machine gun hummingbirds, but certain other ships are definitely going to start looking good. (Like greasy fast food at an inebriated 1am good.)
marjolijn dragonslayer
unfair pleasure
#1166 - 2011-11-17 10:15:00 UTC
The reloading time on hybrids is just terrible,

every 20 seconds you need to fit another type of ammo becaus the range doesnt apply anymore. taking 10 seconds per switch......

Take out at least half of the ammo types and make the bandwidth of the remaining ones wider, so atleast we can apply damage instead of reloading.....
Planetmaster
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1167 - 2011-11-17 14:35:26 UTC
I was on SiSi and testing. And:

As i know its impossible to change situation without changing ships but there is some tweaks that can be done.

Please add some power grid and CPU to eris. This ship is impossible to fit. I don't know why it was done in that way. You added some inertia to it. But ship itself is still useless. Eris is not real interdictor its faildictor .... also maybe its possible to -one low slot and add it to mid ? Its gallante boat so at last WEB "must be" on this ship with only to slots in mid you can only MWD (essential on dictor) and Scrambler

More to come..
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1168 - 2011-11-17 14:54:10 UTC
The Eris should have a high slot moved to a mid with a ton of additional CPU. Maybe one extra missile slot...

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Planetmaster
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1169 - 2011-11-17 15:07:16 UTC
Deimos

I don't know where this ship can be used ? Its still unplayabe in fleets because rails sucks. Munin and Zaelot are far more better in Armor HACs. Deimos Sig Radius is big. What is not the worst but rails and ammo. Ammo ranges are still to tight you must switch this ammo over and over to gain any DMG. Its a fail CCP one more time.

Deimos on blasters is even worst. Not much tank to gank and slow ... how you want us to play with it ?

Ishtar

Maybe it will be good in small gangs and gate camps in 0.0 (coz drones). and perfect ratter as where it is now. It good ship for small gang can work as tanker / bait
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1170 - 2011-11-17 18:00:39 UTC
Planetmaster wrote:
Deimos

I don't know where this ship can be used ? Its still unplayabe in fleets because rails sucks. Munin and Zaelot are far more better in Armor HACs. Deimos Sig Radius is big. What is not the worst but rails and ammo. Ammo ranges are still to tight you must switch this ammo over and over to gain any DMG. Its a fail CCP one more time.

Deimos on blasters is even worst. Not much tank to gank and slow ... how you want us to play with it ?

Ishtar

Maybe it will be good in small gangs and gate camps in 0.0 (coz drones). and perfect ratter as where it is now. It good ship for small gang can work as tanker / bait


Actually change it by vigilant and you have a decent hac, still crap range engagement but at least tank some dmg and actually does some dmg when it manages to get in range.
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#1171 - 2011-11-17 20:17:52 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Planetmaster wrote:
Deimos

I don't know where this ship can be used ? Its still unplayabe in fleets because rails sucks. Munin and Zaelot are far more better in Armor HACs. Deimos Sig Radius is big. What is not the worst but rails and ammo. Ammo ranges are still to tight you must switch this ammo over and over to gain any DMG. Its a fail CCP one more time.

Deimos on blasters is even worst. Not much tank to gank and slow ... how you want us to play with it ?

Ishtar

Maybe it will be good in small gangs and gate camps in 0.0 (coz drones). and perfect ratter as where it is now. It good ship for small gang can work as tanker / bait


Actually change it by vigilant and you have a decent hac, still crap range engagement but at least tank some dmg and actually does some dmg when it manages to get in range.


yes but vigi is too expensive for Ally fleets ! :) its pimp ship ! :)
Malus Rimor
Perkone
Caldari State
#1172 - 2011-11-18 07:11:42 UTC
marjolijn dragonslayer wrote:
The reloading time on hybrids is just terrible,

every 20 seconds you need to fit another type of ammo becaus the range doesnt apply anymore. taking 10 seconds per switch......

Take out at least half of the ammo types and make the bandwidth of the remaining ones wider, so atleast we can apply damage instead of reloading.....


^^ This.
In practice this is important.
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
#1173 - 2011-11-18 12:16:19 UTC
Malus Rimor wrote:
marjolijn dragonslayer wrote:
The reloading time on hybrids is just terrible,

every 20 seconds you need to fit another type of ammo becaus the range doesnt apply anymore. taking 10 seconds per switch......

Take out at least half of the ammo types and make the bandwidth of the remaining ones wider, so atleast we can apply damage instead of reloading.....


^^ This.
In practice this is important.


In SiSi they have insta-reload like Amarr.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1174 - 2011-11-18 13:00:40 UTC
Phoenix Torp wrote:
Malus Rimor wrote:
marjolijn dragonslayer wrote:
The reloading time on hybrids is just terrible,

every 20 seconds you need to fit another type of ammo becaus the range doesnt apply anymore. taking 10 seconds per switch......

Take out at least half of the ammo types and make the bandwidth of the remaining ones wider, so atleast we can apply damage instead of reloading.....


^^ This.
In practice this is important.


In SiSi they have insta-reload like Amarr.



Bug

Actually it's 5 seconds and it helps for engagement ranges but not about dps, tech 2 ammo needs serious improvements
Lunce
The Icarus Expedition
Solyaris Chtonium
#1175 - 2011-11-18 13:10:15 UTC
As a Caldari pilot I've always looked at the Ferox and wondered why it's such a lousy blaster boat. It only has enough power grid to fit Electron Blasters, which leaves it completely anemic when it comes to DPS. If it had the PG to fit Neutron Blasters, it could actually be a decent PVP ship.

Just a thought.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1176 - 2011-11-18 13:13:37 UTC
Lunce wrote:
As a Caldari pilot I've always looked at the Ferox and wondered why it's such a lousy blaster boat. It only has enough power grid to fit Electron Blasters, which leaves it completely anemic when it comes to DPS. If it had the PG to fit Neutron Blasters, it could actually be a decent PVP ship.

Just a thought.



Well actually it fits the same gun type than Diemost: electrons

Try to fit your Diemost with Neutrons Lol

indicast
Conquerors Undead Space
#1177 - 2011-11-18 13:40:49 UTC
WisdomLikeSilence wrote:
NErf Scorch. Nerf Autocannons. problem solved.


nerf missiles too
Treks Dot
The Kobayashi Maru
#1178 - 2011-11-18 23:06:16 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Bug

Actually it's 5 seconds and it helps for engagement ranges but not about dps, tech 2 ammo needs serious improvements


After some testing on SiSi I have to say that Javelin is fine now. Void needs to lose that damned tracking penalty and Spike could use more damage. Never had a problem with Null. Rails themselves need better base tracking.
Apollo Gabriel
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#1179 - 2011-11-19 04:17:58 UTC
Treks Dot wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Bug

Actually it's 5 seconds and it helps for engagement ranges but not about dps, tech 2 ammo needs serious improvements


After some testing on SiSi I have to say that Javelin is fine now. Void needs to lose that damned tracking penalty and Spike could use more damage. Never had a problem with Null. Rails themselves need better base tracking.


The problem with Rails is you're too damn slow to kite, unlike Artillery
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
DickbeardThePirate
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1180 - 2011-11-19 07:30:30 UTC
I'm probably the least experienced person in this thread, so feel free to disregard this as I have no idea what I'm talking about, but these changes definitely seem underwhelming. Tripling the velocity and inertia buffs would help.