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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#6961 - 2013-10-29 21:20:39 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
Vargur got the option to use 1400mm like it or not still an option . now if you use 1400mm you can tell it will work very well with bastion. vargur will probably be the best ship for artillery in rubicon

the second option is pretty OP giving marauder an extra mid slot without any drawbacks. At least right now the high slot is ultility which wont affect performance of the ship.


You sound like one of the guys who can't use the vargur or 1400s T2 on TQ at all. 1400 work not better in bastion then out of it. Tornado will probably stay the best ship for artillery in rubicon if you want to stay mobile and Maelstrom will be the best ship for artillery with a decent buffer tank in rubicon. You will not see Arty Vargurs. If you do it is for brain afk lvl pve-ers.
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#6962 - 2013-10-29 21:23:53 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

If I free up a mid and add a 3rd tracking computer + activate bastion, its about a 3-4% dps increase (~36dps) vs targets 40KM away... moving about 2KM makes up this difference... 25Mb bandwidth loss is more than 36dps.



when i read stuff like this i seriously doubt the competence of the writer....

you ignore everythng but raw dps numbers this is just stupid.


If you stay still with a vargur you waste dps and so you waste isk.if you can't use mjd to jump into the middle of npcs it is useless for vargur.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#6963 - 2013-10-29 21:28:53 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Kane Fenris wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

If I free up a mid and add a 3rd tracking computer + activate bastion, its about a 3-4% dps increase (~36dps) vs targets 40KM away... moving about 2KM makes up this difference... 25Mb bandwidth loss is more than 36dps.



when i read stuff like this i seriously doubt the competence of the writer....

you ignore everythng but raw dps numbers this is just stupid.



lawl, last time I checked, a TC isnt raw dps, it adds projection / effective dps.... I also like how you only quoted part of the post and failed to quote the parts talking about mobility differences, the MJD bonus, ewar immunity, etc

Your argument is that dps numbers are less important than.....well, you didnt list the change that is supposed to invalidate my arguement...

If you believe these changes to be an overall buff for level 4s, why not actually make an argument with factual information that shows how whatever 'mystery topic' is will consistently result in more isk/hour
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#6964 - 2013-10-29 21:50:11 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
Vargur got the option to use 1400mm like it or not still an option . now if you use 1400mm you can tell it will work very well with bastion. vargur will probably be the best ship for artillery in rubicon

the second option is pretty OP giving marauder an extra mid slot without any drawbacks. At least right now the high slot is ultility which wont affect performance of the ship.


You sound like one of the guys who can't use the vargur or 1400s T2 on TQ at all. 1400 work not better in bastion then out of it. Tornado will probably stay the best ship for artillery in rubicon if you want to stay mobile and Maelstrom will be the best ship for artillery with a decent buffer tank in rubicon. You will not see Arty Vargurs. If you do it is for brain afk lvl pve-ers.


you sound like one of those who mix pvp and pve up just to get a point accross. why are you bringin tornado into the mix? how exactly is malestorm better than a vargur in the expansion? vargur got falloff bonus and bastion give more optimal and falloff.
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
#6965 - 2013-10-29 21:55:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
POS forum ate my post :(

Anywyas, got off of sisi and the vargur is so damn good right now I have trouble articulating it into words.

It is going to be glorious and I can't wait

FYI all the numbnuts who only care about raw dps numbers: Have you guys considered the impact increased number of penetrating hits and improved quality of grazing shots due to increased tracking and range have on your mission running speed?

It's effing huge and you would know that if you bothered testing it on sisi.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#6966 - 2013-10-29 22:17:41 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
POS forum ate my post :(

Anywyas, got off of sisi and the vargur is so damn good right now I have trouble articulating it into words.

It is going to be glorious and I can't wait

FYI all the numbnuts who only care about raw dps numbers: Have you guys considered the impact increased number of penetrating hits and improved quality of grazing shots due to increased tracking and range have on your mission running speed?

It's effing huge and you would know that if you bothered testing it on sisi.


Since you tested it, what would you say about projectile ranges with Bastion vs without? For that matter, what sort of guns did you use and which ammo type(s)?
Kane Fenris
NWP
#6967 - 2013-10-29 22:20:01 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

If I free up a mid and add a 3rd tracking computer + activate bastion, its about a 3-4% dps increase (~36dps) vs targets 40KM away... moving about 2KM makes up this difference... 25Mb bandwidth loss is more than 36dps.



when i read stuff like this i seriously doubt the competence of the writer....

you ignore everythng but raw dps numbers this is just stupid.



lawl, last time I checked, a TC isnt raw dps, it adds projection / effective dps.... I also like how you only quoted part of the post and failed to quote the parts talking about mobility differences, the MJD bonus, ewar immunity, etc

Your argument is that dps numbers are less important than.....well, you didnt list the change that is supposed to invalidate my arguement...

If you believe these changes to be an overall buff for level 4s, why not actually make an argument with factual information that shows how whatever 'mystery topic' is will consistently result in more isk/hour


you didn't understand the point i quoted this passage because of the very flawed logic in this passage.
you only talk about the damage bonus at a fixed range your TE gives you and THEN you make the worst mistake .....you say compared to old bandwith you loose dmg (with a ship thats supposed to e in the middle of a fight in your preffered fit)

if you actually belive youll do better clear times useing med drones your just bad.
small drones (with selected dmg) wil clear all small ships up to cruisers while you apply your damage to cruisers and above will lead to better clear times than just going with most dps drones (like hobs).
and if you say youll loose dps by not beeing able to swap between drones when all small ships are dead you greatly underestimate the travel times of drones.

so effectively you'll loose way less dps than these 36 if even any dps.

thats why i called it dumb cause you neglect all but your eft dmg (in this case).
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6968 - 2013-10-29 22:36:04 UTC
wow.....

CCP, I think it's time to start a new thread, cause this one has turned into nothing more than ship by ship comparisons and strategies....
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#6969 - 2013-10-29 22:49:51 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
wow.....

CCP, I think it's time to start a new thread, cause this one has turned into nothing more than ship by ship comparisons and strategies....

If people have been reduced to arguing about specific fits, strategy's, and situations as opposed to the hulls themselves I think that is a good indication that the hulls in question are probably pretty well balanced against each other.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#6970 - 2013-10-29 22:51:10 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

If I free up a mid and add a 3rd tracking computer + activate bastion, its about a 3-4% dps increase (~36dps) vs targets 40KM away... moving about 2KM makes up this difference... 25Mb bandwidth loss is more than 36dps.



when i read stuff like this i seriously doubt the competence of the writer....

you ignore everythng but raw dps numbers this is just stupid.



lawl, last time I checked, a TC isnt raw dps, it adds projection / effective dps.... I also like how you only quoted part of the post and failed to quote the parts talking about mobility differences, the MJD bonus, ewar immunity, etc

Your argument is that dps numbers are less important than.....well, you didnt list the change that is supposed to invalidate my arguement...

If you believe these changes to be an overall buff for level 4s, why not actually make an argument with factual information that shows how whatever 'mystery topic' is will consistently result in more isk/hour


you didn't understand the point i quoted this passage because of the very flawed logic in this passage.
you only talk about the damage bonus at a fixed range your TE gives you and THEN you make the worst mistake .....you say compared to old bandwith you loose dmg (with a ship thats supposed to e in the middle of a fight in your preffered fit)

if you actually belive youll do better clear times useing med drones your just bad.
small drones (with selected dmg) wil clear all small ships up to cruisers while you apply your damage to cruisers and above will lead to better clear times than just going with most dps drones (like hobs).
and if you say youll loose dps by not beeing able to swap between drones when all small ships are dead you greatly underestimate the travel times of drones.

so effectively you'll loose way less dps than these 36 if even any dps.

thats why i called it dumb cause you neglect all but your eft dmg (in this case).


I think you may want to reread... the 36 dps was showing the the dmg increase bastion mode gives via bastion + a TC in a midslot freed from being able to use less mids. In other words, the turret dmg at the 40KM mark is better on the SiSi vargur by 36 points while in bastion mode. Outside of bastion mode, the SiSi vargur does around 5 more points of dps at that range b/c of the tracking computer.

outside of bastion, the 5point advantage is easily countered by the TQ vargurs speed. Inside of bastion, the TQ vargur can move 2KM to gain an advantage over the sisi vargur. So before tanking bandwidth into account the TQ vargur still has the advantage.

If you want to play with the impact of drones:
An alternative is that the TQ vargur could decide to stay in one place while in SISI vargur is in bastion. The TQ vargur's extra 25 bandwidth could be used to field a sentry drone, which would make up the 36 dps difference.

Alternatively, as taking an extra sentry would forgo light drones on TQ, you can bring a fleet of lights + 2 sentry drones. So lets say the sisi vargur is bastioned, and maybe a frigs got under its guns. It pulls in one sentry, releases 4 hobs to take care take care of it. The TQ vargur who might also be in a similar situation, maintains both sentry drones giving it the station advantage + releases 3 hobs to dispatch the frig. The TQ vargur still maintains an advantage as rare as a frig getting in under your guns is in a vargur and drones dont lose dps via travel time if they are sentry drones.
Outz Xacto
Echelon Munitions
#6971 - 2013-10-29 22:55:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Outz Xacto
Joe Risalo wrote:
wow.....

CCP, I think it's time to start a new thread, cause this one has turned into nothing more than ship by ship comparisons and strategies....



Actually those very things should be considered for balancing of these ships, ignoring what other ships offer or perform can result in duplication and unecessary overlap between ships. In addition, performance of ships and strategies of their use also has the same apply to it.

Not sure how long you've tracked the thread, but its gone into this cycle numerous times already lol, even the earlier discussion with mission completion times etc has been discussed hundreds of pages prior.

Quote:
If people have been reduced to arguing about specific fits, strategy's, and situations as opposed to the hulls themselves I think that is a good indication that the hulls in question are probably pretty well balanced against each other.


Some of it is some pretty broad concepts though, I wouldn't say the hulls are balanced well based off an argument between people about what drones to use lol.

Quote:
I think you may want to reread... the 36 dps was showing the the dmg increase bastion mode gives via bastion + a TC in a midslot freed from being able to use less mids. In other words, the turret dmg at the 40KM mark is better on the SiSi vargur by 36 points while in bastion mode. Outside of bastion mode, the SiSi vargur does around 5 more points of dps at that range b/c of the tracking computer.


36 more paper dps due to eft telling you its better from the range / tracking difference. Except we all know, if you weren't a sitting brick you'd be moving correctly to make up any difference gained, not only that, but as was pointed out, the amount of time taken to even close the gap of distance gained by bastion takes so little time its not even a factor.

Point is, if both ships sat still, and shot at that eft ship, you're right, its got better applied dps in bastion. Reality is, unless you're braindead you're not gonna just sit still when you can move.

Unless I've missed something, this is the classic EFT malarkey thats thrown around.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#6972 - 2013-10-29 23:00:27 UTC
Outz Xacto wrote:
Quote:
If people have been reduced to arguing about specific fits, strategy's, and situations as opposed to the hulls themselves I think that is a good indication that the hulls in question are probably pretty well balanced against each other.


Some of it is some pretty broad concepts though, I wouldn't say the hulls are balanced well based off an argument between people about what drones to use lol.

True. But I would assume that any remaining marauder vs pirate hull balance issues could be addressed when the pirate hulls get their balance pass.
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#6973 - 2013-10-29 23:06:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Tsukinosuke wrote:

how can you say golem is designed as a torpedo platform??? any referrance??? to be sure about Lai Dai philosopy you can check descriptions of the ships which they are developed by Lai Dai..

strange, because i have never flown marauder, i wasnt sure about worth training, till now.. also you should read description of marauder too..

some useful links: http://www.eveinfo.net/wiki/inde~385.htm and https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Ships:Battleships:Advanced_Battleships:Marauders


Before the changes to faction BS a CNR was the far better CM ship, it had the higher damage output with CMs compared to the golem while it had massive issues mounting torps + tank + speed mod. Overall if you did want to utilize torpedoes properly the ship you did fly was the Golem(if you did want CMs, then you flown a CNR, because it was plain better at it). Funny enough, by the speed buff to the CNR it became the better torp ship already, since the Golem lacks speed to get in range quick and this is probably it's main downside(and it get speed nerfed with the changes). Overall it got the fitting to mount torps + prop mod + active tank, the painter bonus what is necessary for torps and with T2 resists + active tanking bonus the ability to duke it out a close range(at least till a point where you get sufficient skilled, then the dps solves all your problems for you).

From my experience flying the marauders, Kronos is a pure sentry+rail platform(it got beaten at blasters by the Vindi, and it is comedy gold with the changes, using blasters as a static ship), however I don't mind since it did offer a fairly good compromise between speed, range and med range dps(not so much with the changes, since it loses speed and sentry dps). Golem is a close range extreme high gank ship, if you don't fit it that way, the CNR is plain better, the Vargur is like a bit heavier tanked Mach with a lot of downsides and no real niche(except ammo efficiently and high end tank fittings that are not useful for most content). With little surprise the Paladin is the best marauder, it can work fully gank fitted, utilizing sentry's, 90% webbing and mwd or high tach dps at medium range with sentry support(again nerfed by the band wide and speed changes).

Overall roles are restricted by the alternatives, Golem and Vargur are down to close range weapons, by fitting advantages mostly, Kronos is down to long range, because it can do it better than the vindi, that is plain better than it at close. Paladin is the exception, it can do both very good and even in extreme competitive scenarios like Incs it could hold it's niche against other armor ships(by combining powerful webing with high range) and it manages to break even against the overall best dps/utility platform in the game(the nightmare). This is from the perspective of somebody that flown both hulls in 5B+ fittings under contest, where dps on the target is everything and utilizing your platform up to maximum efficiency is required.

Tsukinosuke wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:
Btw Angels don't jam they paint.


please dont be so cocky, as if you are perfect..


It should be common knowledge to anybody that does pve a bit more serious. Especially since jamming is such a big problem on marauders.

Anize Oramara wrote:
POS forum ate my post :(

Anywyas, got off of sisi and the vargur is so damn good right now I have trouble articulating it into words.

It is going to be glorious and I can't wait

FYI all the numbnuts who only care about raw dps numbers: Have you guys considered the impact increased number of penetrating hits and improved quality of grazing shots due to increased tracking and range have on your mission running speed?

It's effing huge and you would know that if you bothered testing it on sisi.


Yes I did, since I actually compared speed with both hulls doing stuff while moving the hulls around in the content. Given I did run some L4s with my current Vargur I really hate the speed, it simply goes way to fast and clicking the shield booster a few times with my 2 slot tank is way to much work, so overall the new marauders will be better.

Is is really this hard to believe that the people that want to fly her old marauders flown the hulls quite a bit and are not satisfied with the changes?
Kane Fenris
NWP
#6974 - 2013-10-29 23:07:48 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:

If you want to play with the impact of drones:
An alternative is that the TQ vargur could decide to stay in one place while in SISI vargur is in bastion. The TQ vargur's extra 25 bandwidth could be used to field a sentry drone, which would make up the 36 dps difference.

Alternatively, as taking an extra sentry would forgo light drones on TQ, you can bring a fleet of lights + 2 sentry drones. So lets say the sisi vargur is bastioned, and maybe a frigs got under its guns. It pulls in one sentry, releases 4 hobs to take care take care of it. The TQ vargur who might also be in a similar situation, maintains both sentry drones giving it the station advantage + releases 3 hobs to dispatch the frig. The TQ vargur still maintains an advantage as rare as a frig getting in under your guns is in a vargur and drones dont lose dps via travel time if they are sentry drones.


and yet again you proove that you neglect all effects to your sdisadvantage.
a sentry i worth **** outside eft in this scenario you yourself say marauders and esp the vargur have to be mobile.... else you place the sentry at range or else it wont apply any meaningfull dps to anything completly unbonused and even if you do you'll end up looseing more time placeing it and scoopeing it up than you would never useing it.

i think we wont reach a consense here because your unwilling to see that your view of drone dps is fundamentally flawed

btw ill agree with you on the most part of the movementspeed and bastion but that doesnt make up for the drones blunder....
Outz Xacto
Echelon Munitions
#6975 - 2013-10-29 23:15:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Outz Xacto
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
True. But I would assume that any remaining marauder vs pirate hull balance issues could be addressed when the pirate hulls get their balance pass.


Correct though there are examples (perhaps its really the only significant one) like with the Golem, where the comparison is not even pirate vessels, RNI. I can't put to much weight to my words on every specific ship under the stars, and frankly I think some ships are more balanced or balanced easier just due to their existing behavior. This of course referring to some of the other marauders.

I of course have my reservations about some of these changes, the hull changes, I am looking forward to. I think Bastion is a bit of a gimmick, and the design intent is incredibly contradictory to intelligent game play, I'll likely still use it when necessary. I just feel they could have done better at setting maraudars apart from other ships. I like some of the idea, but I think the implementation is poor.
Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#6976 - 2013-10-29 23:30:59 UTC
Crappy resists, **** out of bastion still and


Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 125

REALLY? I want my god damn Kronos to atleast be as good as it was pre-your-*******-stupid-rework of Marauders

This is BY FAR the worst rebalance approach done the last year.

Your "LOL BLASTERS MENY RANGE DPS" garbage doesn't work out in most situations due to stacking penalized bastion bonuses

And taking away a sentry from a ship that barely does acceptable dps is just pathetic and awful.

If you honestly think this is fine then I suggest we get a new dev to look at these ships.

When looking at their horrible performance out of bastion... Just get a new dev anyway.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#6977 - 2013-10-29 23:32:23 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Anize Oramara wrote:
POS forum ate my post :(

Anywyas, got off of sisi and the vargur is so damn good right now I have trouble articulating it into words.

It is going to be glorious and I can't wait

FYI all the numbnuts who only care about raw dps numbers: Have you guys considered the impact increased number of penetrating hits and improved quality of grazing shots due to increased tracking and range have on your mission running speed?

It's effing huge and you would know that if you bothered testing it on sisi.


I have tested in EFT and on SiSi

you do realize that the vargur has always been able to eat frigs with half/single gun volleys and reliably 1 shot low tanked cruisers. It even has a significant amount of overkill tied to it with ACs and while bastioned you lose the ability to use your mobility to lower the angular of your target.....

tracking is already very high on the vargur.
vs battleships,
bastioned vargur with 3 SS TC (all tracking) vs a tq vargur with 2 SS TCs (1 tracking, 1 optimal)
(both using ambit and 1 RF TE)
the bastioned vargur gains ~20 dps over the tq vargur, that progressively declines out til the advantage is gone at around the 30KM mark

bastioned with 3 ss tc (2 tracking 1 optimal) vs tq with 2 ss tc (both optimal)
the benefits are ~15dps at 20km and the benefit is lost at ~25km

Already discussed bastioned w/ 3 optimal vs tq with 2 optimal

granted, this is also assuming that the tq vargur is stationary and not taking advantage of its mobility via closing distances or reducing angular.

I will and have always planned on using the vargur on rubicon for ewar missions and certain missions like serp Massive Attack, that really benefit from being able to MJD often. but given the looting structure, drone bandwidth reduction, mobility/dmg reduction, I will not be using it as my main mission runner if these are the changes. Mach was always better than the vargur at general clear times, it will now be able to loot as well, plus the vargur nerfs...
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
#6978 - 2013-10-29 23:47:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
POS forum ate my post :(

Anywyas, got off of sisi and the vargur is so damn good right now I have trouble articulating it into words.

It is going to be glorious and I can't wait

FYI all the numbnuts who only care about raw dps numbers: Have you guys considered the impact increased number of penetrating hits and improved quality of grazing shots due to increased tracking and range have on your mission running speed?

It's effing huge and you would know that if you bothered testing it on sisi.


Since you tested it, what would you say about projectile ranges with Bastion vs without? For that matter, what sort of guns did you use and which ammo type(s)?


Well just did serpentis vengeance for the first time ever (Run sansha on TQ) and finished it in 35min including looting and salvaging 16mill worth of loot. I took full room aggro every room by nuking the frigs first. I made a few derp mistakes that cost me around 5 min since it's the first time running it but MJD away from left over frigs at the end is 100% viable. The destroyers orbiting at 12km I could blap without webs (2 tracking scripts).

This is without ANY bling whatsoever. This will be amazing with a gist X-type large and republic gyros. Heck maybe even a faction invul but it's obviously not needed.

Made 31mill and 7k LP

Fit:
[Vargur, Anize Oramara's Vargur]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
X-Large Shield Booster II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Large Micro Jump Drive
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Projectile Ambit Extension II
Large Projectile Ambit Extension II

Salvage Drone I x5
Valkyrie II x5


Also hammerheads are effing useless against frigs. will the minmi mediums work better?

I killed the frigs first then launched salvage drones and told them to salvage (with nothing targeted, then proceeded to blap wile the wrecks got salvaged automatically, just picking up cans at the end.

Some additional stats with my skills as seen on sisi with bastion running
2X range scripts
Tracking: 0.072
Range 79km

1range, 1 tracking (My default)
Tracking: 0. 093
Range 74km

2 tracking (works amazing against serp and angels)
Tracking 0.114
Range 67km (what I currently have on TQ)

Note that this is with a sebo fitted. I could replace that with another TC just as easily. Think the range goes up to 82km or tracking at 0.13 or something.

Basically your damage application shoots through the roof. End of story.

ps. serp loot/salvage suuuuuuuuucks.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#6979 - 2013-10-30 00:06:49 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Kane Fenris wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

If you want to play with the impact of drones:
An alternative is that the TQ vargur could decide to stay in one place while in SISI vargur is in bastion. The TQ vargur's extra 25 bandwidth could be used to field a sentry drone, which would make up the 36 dps difference.

Alternatively, as taking an extra sentry would forgo light drones on TQ, you can bring a fleet of lights + 2 sentry drones. So lets say the sisi vargur is bastioned, and maybe a frigs got under its guns. It pulls in one sentry, releases 4 hobs to take care take care of it. The TQ vargur who might also be in a similar situation, maintains both sentry drones giving it the station advantage + releases 3 hobs to dispatch the frig. The TQ vargur still maintains an advantage as rare as a frig getting in under your guns is in a vargur and drones dont lose dps via travel time if they are sentry drones.


and yet again you proove that you neglect all effects to your sdisadvantage.

a sentry i worth **** outside eft in this scenario you yourself say marauders and esp the vargur have to be mobile.... else you place the sentry at range or else it wont apply any meaningfull dps to anything completly unbonused and even if you do you'll end up looseing more time placeing it and scoopeing it up than you would never useing it.

i think we wont reach a consense here because your unwilling to see that your view of drone dps is fundamentally flawed

btw ill agree with you on the most part of the movementspeed and bastion but that doesnt make up for the drones blunder....


The purpose of the post is to reflect that w/ general mission running, outside of the original advantages I have spoken about again and again including in the very first post you replied to (ewar, rare needs for MJD < 3mins) that the ship has taken an overall nerf.

I am glad that you see the advantages in mobility, and that when it comes to mobile vs bastionedcombat that the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi vargur.

The point related to drones was not a blunder, and serves to indicate that even in immobile vs bastioned combat, the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi marauder due to the drone bandwidth. Remember that original 36dps was estimated at a range of 40km. (all lvl V) an unbonused bouncer II(i.e. difference in bandwidth) deals around ~48dps to BS moving in a perfect 40km orbit around the stationary vargur. Assuming the same BS is on the approach, its ~53 dps. You dont waste time scooping if you arent moving. In immobile combat, the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi vargur

In summary:
TQ vs SISI vargurs in general lvl 4 combat outside of its few niche uses which I have on many occasions mentioned:
mobile vs mobile = winner TQ
mobile vs bastioned = winner TQ
immobile vs bastioned = winner TQ

The vargur has been nerfed.
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
#6980 - 2013-10-30 00:31:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
chaosgrimm wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

If you want to play with the impact of drones:
An alternative is that the TQ vargur could decide to stay in one place while in SISI vargur is in bastion. The TQ vargur's extra 25 bandwidth could be used to field a sentry drone, which would make up the 36 dps difference.

Alternatively, as taking an extra sentry would forgo light drones on TQ, you can bring a fleet of lights + 2 sentry drones. So lets say the sisi vargur is bastioned, and maybe a frigs got under its guns. It pulls in one sentry, releases 4 hobs to take care take care of it. The TQ vargur who might also be in a similar situation, maintains both sentry drones giving it the station advantage + releases 3 hobs to dispatch the frig. The TQ vargur still maintains an advantage as rare as a frig getting in under your guns is in a vargur and drones dont lose dps via travel time if they are sentry drones.


and yet again you proove that you neglect all effects to your sdisadvantage.

a sentry i worth **** outside eft in this scenario you yourself say marauders and esp the vargur have to be mobile.... else you place the sentry at range or else it wont apply any meaningfull dps to anything completly unbonused and even if you do you'll end up looseing more time placeing it and scoopeing it up than you would never useing it.

i think we wont reach a consense here because your unwilling to see that your view of drone dps is fundamentally flawed

btw ill agree with you on the most part of the movementspeed and bastion but that doesnt make up for the drones blunder....


The purpose of the post is to reflect that w/ general mission running, outside of the original advantages I have spoken about again and again including in the very first post you replied to (ewar, rare needs for MJD < 3mins) that the ship has taken an overall nerf.

I am glad that you see the advantages in mobility, and that when it comes to mobile vs bastionedcombat that the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi vargur.

The point related to drones was not a blunder, and serves to indicate that even in immobile vs bastioned combat, the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi marauder due to the drone bandwidth. Remember that original 36dps was estimated at a range of 40km. (all lvl V) an unbonused bouncer II(i.e. difference in bandwidth) deals around ~48dps to BS moving in a perfect 40km orbit around the stationary vargur. Assuming the same BS is on the approach, its ~53 dps. You dont waste time scooping if you arent moving. In immobile combat, the tq vargur maintains an advantage over the sisi vargur

In summary:
TQ vs SISI vargurs in general lvl 4 combat outside of its few niche uses which I have on many occasions mentioned:
mobile vs mobile = winner TQ
mobile vs bastioned = winner TQ
immobile vs bastioned = winner TQ

The vargur has been nerfed.

You are wrong as I have shown in the post right above yours. The increased damage application, increased penetrating hits and REAL WORLD (haha internet spaceships) results far outstrip the paltry paper dps theory crafters circle jerk over.

Hell I didn't even use my drones since I get far more isk/m by simply having my salvage drones salvage while I shoot things. That's the whole point of the marauder. If you try and use the bastion marauder as you would the TQ one, or WORSE a pirate BS you will fail and deservedly so. Adapt and you will excel. The change is coming so everyone will have to adapt or switch over to pirate BS. Gankers would prefer that to be honest as I don't need a SINGLE bling module to full room tank vengeance and apparently angel extrav bonus room while your pirate BS still needs plenty of bling.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3