These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6601 - 2013-10-23 18:59:57 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I'm a tank and spank missioner....
I want bastion Golem.... Played with it on test, fits me perfectly

I prefer spank over tank. I see your Bastion Golem and raise you Raven Navy Issue. Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6602 - 2013-10-23 19:05:44 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I'm a tank and spank missioner....
I want bastion Golem.... Played with it on test, fits me perfectly

I prefer spank over tank. I see your Bastion Golem and raise you Raven Navy Issue. Lol


I'll see your spank RNI, and raise you full room aggro without having to warp out cause things are getting too hot..Cool
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6603 - 2013-10-23 19:10:24 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I'll see your spank RNI, and raise you full room aggro without having to warp out cause things are getting too hot..Cool

New Golem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRecXl3kj2A
Raven Navy Issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0w9q125TSI

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6604 - 2013-10-23 19:21:26 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I'll see your spank RNI, and raise you full room aggro without having to warp out cause things are getting too hot..Cool

New Golem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRecXl3kj2A
Raven Navy Issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0w9q125TSI


lol...

for some reason, I now find myself wanting a pet platypus..
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6605 - 2013-10-23 19:25:14 UTC
Hey, are they back up on test yet?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6606 - 2013-10-23 19:51:16 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I'll see your spank RNI, and raise you full room aggro without having to warp out cause things are getting too hot..Cool

New Golem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRecXl3kj2A
Raven Navy Issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0w9q125TSI


lol... for some reason, I now find myself wanting a pet platypus..

Yeah, if it wasn't for the venomous spur they'd be great family pets. Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#6607 - 2013-10-23 19:54:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Joe Risalo wrote:
Hey, are they back up on test yet?


Rubicon is back on SiSi. Make sure to switch your launcher to DX9 if you haven't already. Also, expect a few .. database issues .. with some of the ships. Or at least we think they're database issues. CCP hasn't commented yet.

The Golem, however, is currently sporting an amazing new grey-and-gold paintjob that makes it look eerily similar to a Raven State Issue. It's a vast improvement, to be sure.
Shivanthar
#6608 - 2013-10-23 20:03:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
Hmm, I got the pattern here.

As far as I read;

Joe Risalo is repeating that Golem goes pretty-well with Bastion.
Paladin users are chaotic, some of them loved the range, others call for web bonus.
Kronos users are also chaotic with more of them call for web bonus while less of them loved the range (seems to me at least).
Vargur users, have no interest in this module, the ones WHO interested in this, wasn't playing it properly or simply bored of their current state. Because, It was performing better than this with AB+old speed.

So;

Bastion module is for Golem,
Beamer module for Paladin, increases falloff-optimal + retaining web bonus + greatly increased armor amount + increased armor repair amount
Boomer module for Kronos, increasing falloff-optimal + retaining web bonus + increasing armor resists + increased armor repair rate
Bumper module for Vargur, increasing falloff-optimal + increased speed + shield resistances + increased shield boost bonus

Something for everyone eh? (=^.^=)

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#6609 - 2013-10-23 20:06:08 UTC
Dinsdale doesn't speak for all Kronos pilots, I'm more than happy with my 1600 DPS TE/TC range boosted blaster boat.

I don't need webs for hitting frigates, I've tracking to rival their transversal until 7km, then the light drones mop up the remainder, and there's always MJD to just give myself range to pick them off again.

Also contrary to popular (QQ based) belief, the NPC AI does not mass slaughter drones, it kills drones of people who use them as a fire and forget system, ignoring them until everything has died.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6610 - 2013-10-23 20:06:47 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
The Golem, however, is currently sporting an amazing new grey-and-gold paintjob that makes it look eerily similar to a Raven State Issue. It's a vast improvement, to be sure.

Post a screenshot!

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#6611 - 2013-10-23 20:08:46 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Jake Sake wrote:
The Djego wrote:


They are even a lot worse for PVE after the changes, at least to people that actually utilized them properly, because they have no use for mjd, no use for bastion and the speed, dps and web nerf really hurts them.


1. Nope, after the changes they look better.
2. Please refrain from speaking for others, and don't imply someone is dumber then you are.
3. MJD got used once it was introduced. And with a buff it might get used by even more people.
4. If you lack mental capacity to find a use for something it does not mean everyone lack it.
5. Where's the dps nerf? 5 km/s is a nerf, really? And web nerf? 3 of 4 ships had no web bonus to begin with and well Kronos gets turned into sniper with rails - I'm sorry for your loss, my condolences. Life goes on - adapt or die.

P.S. Everything the new Marauders get / loss fit with my playing style perfectly. I will buy and use 2 new Marauders when Rubicon will arrive to TQ.


1. Would you like to explain me how they are better for people that currently have marauder 5, fly them a lot and got no use for bastion and mjd?

2. I think you have a problem to understand what "everybody I know that uses marauders" does mean, it means people I know that actually use marauders. Guess what people already fly marauders and while they got her flaws(that don't really get addressed in this patch) they are happier with them, the same way I am happier with them currently.

3. Did you compare efficiency between mjd fittings and mwd fittings? Because I did and this is the reason why I use a mwd instead of a mjd.

4. I guess it is beyond my metal capacity to understand people that mjd 100km away, gimp her own dps this way and call it a massive improvement. Lets say I have reasons to fit a mwd and save myself some time.

5. I would suggest you compare the current marauders with the changes in a fitting, so you can see the nonsense you are talking yourself by your own. As a tip, drone band wide was changed and not everybody just uses light drones, mwd speed(you know the actually important number) might change by more than 5m/s(it is 10m/s Paladin, 50m/s Golem, 70m/s Kronos and a ******* 130m/s on the Vargur that they are still slower, while they where ******* 300m/s slower in the first iteration, and people where even ok with that because a mjd solves everything apparently). Further more 2 of 4 have the web bonus and you don't understand the changes to the Kronos at all, because the falloff bonus is hardly useful for rails and it gets worse as a rail platform by the lack of sentry dps. It is considerable worse as rail ship after the changes(less dps, less speed, no useful web to cover point blank) and far worse than the vindicator with blasters(because again, less dps, far less speed, no useful web to hold stuff down).

If you play style is all about flying a billion isk BS that is considerable worse than before, then yes the changes might suit your play style perfectly. For me on the other hand, they look a lot worse after the changes, when I compare them to the ships I currently fly.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6612 - 2013-10-23 20:17:36 UTC
The Djego wrote:
If you play style is all about flying a billion isk BS that is considerable worse than before, then yes the changes might suit your play style perfectly. For me on the other hand, they look a lot worse after the changes, when I compare them to the ships I currently fly.

They look pretty though... Roll

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#6613 - 2013-10-23 20:17:51 UTC
What amazes me is the amount of Kronos pilots that fail to realise they've gained DPS through being able to use short range ammo more frequently due to the increased optimal/falloff distances, or even stop using rails and switch to blasters.

The DPS loss of one sentry drone does not come close to those gains, as for the loss of the web, you've got the midslot for a scripted TC, and the lows, now you don't need as many tanking mods, for at least one TE. You have the tracking and the drone bay to handle small ships comfortably, while doing much more DPS to anything Cruiser and up.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6614 - 2013-10-23 20:31:10 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
Hmm, I got the pattern here.

As far as I read;

Joe Risalo is repeating that Golem goes pretty-well with Bastion.
Paladin users are chaotic, some of them loved the range, others call for web bonus.
Kronos users are also chaotic with more of them call for web bonus while less of them loved the range (seems to me at least).
Vargur users, have no interest in this module, the ones WHO interested in this, wasn't playing it properly or simply bored of their current state. Because, It was performing better than this with AB+old speed.

So;

Bastion module is for Golem,
Beamer module for Paladin, increases falloff-optimal + retaining web bonus + greatly increased armor amount + increased armor repair amount
Boomer module for Kronos, increasing falloff-optimal + retaining web bonus + increasing armor resists + increased armor repair rate
Bumper module for Vargur, increasing falloff-optimal + increased speed + shield resistances + increased shield boost bonus

Something for everyone eh? (=^.^=)


This comment will also reply to the recent post of djego.

Since missiles aren't effected by tracking/falloff is the main reason why golem performs well with bastion and MJD.

The rest of them don't have this advantage.
The golem performs just as well at long range, as it does at close range.

While you're on the right track, I think there's a bit of imbalance in your proposal for the other 3.
Here's my thought.
Golem - stays as is with bastion MJD.

Paladin - stationary with MJD. Bastion gives tank bonus and tracking bonus. Range isn't a problem for paladin.

Kronos - retains same mobility as without bastion, bastion gives web bonus, drone EHP and tracking bonus, retains old drone b/w and gains some hold on hull, gets bonus to armor EHP and resists. Sig is increased as penalty.

Vargur - bastion gives cap usage bonus to MWD. Increases shield EHP and resists. Slight damage buff. Sig radius is increased.

This is a better suggestion for a balance that works with the way the ships are generally used, fits the races, and each has a drawback.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#6615 - 2013-10-23 20:37:33 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
What amazes me is the amount of Kronos pilots that fail to realise they've gained DPS through being able to use short range ammo more frequently due to the increased optimal/falloff distances, or even stop using rails and switch to blasters.

The DPS loss of one sentry drone does not come close to those gains, as for the loss of the web, you've got the midslot for a scripted TC, and the lows, now you don't need as many tanking mods, for at least one TE. You have the tracking and the drone bay to handle small ships comfortably, while doing much more DPS to anything Cruiser and up.


Maybe this is because I use rails on my Kronos instead of blasters and think the new Kronos is considerable slower than what I fly on TQ atm(and I mission with it against angels mostly)? Even with the buffs I don't like the blaster range(it is considerable worse than on my vargur and that ships is a whooping 230m/s faster than the new Kronos). 90% of the time I had to use Null and the rail Kronos does nearly the same dps with a much better projection range.

But have a look how I fly the current Kronos:

[Kronos, New Setup 1]
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Gist A-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
Drone Link Augmentor I
Small Tractor Beam I
Medium 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction

Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Large Anti-Explosive Pump I


Bouncer II x3
Hobgoblin II x5
Salvage Drone I x5

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#6616 - 2013-10-23 20:48:29 UTC
The fourth mag stab on a Kronos is seriously little increase in DPS, 50-60 at best. I swapped that out for an RF TE.

Between max skills, Faction TE/TC (scripted) I'm hitting out to decent ranges with null, though with most NPCs having this obsession with hugging my face they're pretty much fighting in void range.

Rail range is pretty much nullified by the fact you can MJD into blaster range of far off ships without breaking a sweat, considering you can be locking them up as you spool or even before you engage MJD mode, soon as you land, deploy bastion and engage.


With the extra mobility and boosted gun range, while the old school "tank and spank" Kronos is still a viable option, you can get far more DPS, and increased killspeed in taking a mobile blaster option. The reason most people are complaining about that is because they don't want to actively fly, which is odd, because it actually makes missions slightly less dull.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Tsukinosuke
Id Est
RAZOR Alliance
#6617 - 2013-10-23 21:01:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukinosuke
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The Djego wrote:
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
Incursionbear's whinings over webs that have **** all to do with the rest of the hull were eventually ignored, and they should have been.


Except that a lot of pvp people also complained about it. Anybody with a clue about pvp should realize that the only real application where the hulls would be worth the price tag is jumping into a low sec gate camp or station games, where the shield marauders are miles better by her far higher tanking numbers, by ASBs, being far less affected by neuting and pushing out more dps. The armor marauders without the web bonus have no place in the meta game here. This is why pvp players complained. Beside the reason why Inc players use them is because most that organize and put together fleet concepts know ships fairly well and how to utilize her strengths, and they all will drop marauders with the changes, because they become garbage outside of mjd and bastion use(both completely useless in RR environments). They are even a lot worse for PVE after the changes, at least to people that actually utilized them properly, because they have no use for mjd, no use for bastion and the speed, dps and web nerf really hurts them.

Ravasta Helugo wrote:
The feedback from this thread has gotten the speed increased, agility increased, a very sizable EHP bump, and the Drone bay back where it should be. And it got the disaster that was the 2nd version thrown into the trash heap. That's a justification of this thread's existence if I ever saw one.


Guess what people complained about the speed, agility, drones and EHP? Exactly the people that actually fly marauders instead of the guys that post that they need zero speed because of mjd and a single set of light drones is enough because they can't figure out how to utilize the drone bay halve way decent.

That brings me back to my question, that I raised a couple of times so far, for the simply reason that I still have zero use for marauders with the changes:

The Djego wrote:
Since I still didn't get a answer on it yet, how likely it is to just keep the old marauders ingame and make them a 2. hull type that uses the marauder skills? I don't really care if you actually fix them or not.

- the old marauders are not game breaking or created any kind of issue in the game during her 6 years
- in many scenarios they perform better than the new ones
- in certain scenarios(like RR gang or Incs) bastion, active tanking and mjd provide nothing
- people get her new toy that they can sell again after 3 months when the shiny is gone and other people can still be happy with the marauders they use since years
- more choice to the player and choice is good in my opinion
- a opportunity to actually fix the old marauders in a way where they provide a very good alternative to pirate BS hulls(by improving the RR focus, adding utility and giving them unique features like posted a couple of times so far)




It's over.
We lost.

Prices on the Paladin and Kronos are already dropping from where they were 7-10 days ago as those that used these hulls properly have started selling them.

CCP has zero interest in PvE but to nerf high sec incomes as much as possible, and and as for making these pure PvE boats into PvP boats, two of the dev's involved are PvP fanatics, and believe any hull can be converted to that role, and SHOULD be converted to that role.

We have to find another hull / doctrine, which will be inferior to the ones we use now.


that is sad but true.. the question is till when? they will keep doing that to any ship that is chosen for pve role, maybe its time to think and start searching a new home.. cant stop being pessimist at that point..

anti-antagonist "not a friend of enemy of antagonist"
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#6618 - 2013-10-23 21:03:04 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
I go with 4 damage mods on all my marauders and given that the Kronos is quite a bit behind for dps, I would not like to drop it(I did use 4 mfs and 1 TEs for blasters on sissi).

The new Kronos is 70m/s slower(it was 230m/s slower before), I don't want to wast a slot for the mjd, mwd is all I need and I hate sitting around while stuff slow boats out of blaster range. Actually I do complain about it because I want to actively fly my ship without bastion and without mjd, I like and use the web a lot and because it is simply faster from my practical experience(if you consider multi boxing a awful lot faster, if you have 2 hulls doing 1100m/s+ and 100km+ weapon range on both).

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Shinzhi Xadi
Doomheim
#6619 - 2013-10-23 21:04:23 UTC
New Paladin is on sisi, although somehow, CCP forgot to seed the bastion modules.. lol

Also, guns are floating off the hull.

As for the change, I like it, but really think the paladin needs MORE GOLD, now its mostly grey and red.

Mac Pro dual 6-core Xeon 3.06ghz, 24gig ecc ram, EVGA GTX 680 Mac Edition, Intel SSD, OS X Yosemite and Windows 8.1 Pro.
Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Montana Freedom Fighters
#6620 - 2013-10-23 21:05:37 UTC
Dear CCP,

I am fine. How are you? Is work going well? How was your summer? I know we don't talk as much as we should, but I would like to ask you for a favor. Could you please make the Golem's Role Bonus read as follows:

Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large missile launchers, 150% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% to MJD whatevers.

It would mean alot to me, as I love heavy missile with all my heart(even post nerf). Also, my mom asked me to say "hello" and "thanks for last night." Whatever that means.

Thank you,

Topher