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Balancing Feedback: Capital Ships

First post First post
Author
Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#341 - 2011-11-16 20:47:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Draconus Lofwyr
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
highlighted the important part for you, just how long does it take for the little frigate to warp out? So an oil tanker can crush a canoe under its prow, but how long does it take to turn around to try and make another run? should we make oil tankers smaller?

just because you cant fight it with what you have is no reason to nerf it, just get bigger ships, imagine where we would be if everyone felt the same way about battleships when they were the pinnacle of the game? Battleships not allowed in high sec, and the large turrets couldn't target anything under a battle cruiser? and they couldnt dock? no, the whole restrictions and nerfs are wrong. its time to escalate the war, not constrain it to a shoebox instead of the sandbox.




Highlighted the important part for you. I don't think you understand the concept of balance.

See, in hisec when you have a battleship, 2 cruisers can take one out. hell, 2 frigates can if they have good pilots.

My first ship loss was a Ferox to a single Retri.... why? Because I couldn't hit him and he could whittle away at my tank. It wasn't unfair.. I could have had someone in a frigate with me.



i understand balance, and in some of my posts you will find a much better balance approach to the supercarriers that wont make them sitting ducks while truly balancing their abilities. incuding something as simple as removing the bonus to deployed drones other than fighters and FB's. if you cant handle 5 med drones or out distance 5 heavy drones, you should not be flying against a dedicated DRONE boat.

its bad enough drone boats are the only ships in game that can have their entire DPS destroyed permanently, but to remove the chance of replacing them is like not allowing projectile ships to fit more than loads of ammo. the problem is the super blob, not the supers themselves. the drastic buff and now the drastic nerf is no more than chainsaw surgery and is bound to be just as successful. in other words, not very.

another change that would make supers better and usefull without being overpowered would be to let them provide a fleet command role, give them similar bonuses as the command ship with command ships limited to the grid and supers covering the entire system. or something different. let them have specialized offensive capital gang links that improve DPS rate of fire and things like that.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#342 - 2011-11-16 21:00:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
Iam Widdershins wrote:

This is a bad argument and you should feel bad. Current Supercarriers are the best thing in the game for killing frigates once they have attained target lock: 20-25 Warrior II drones are pretty ridiculously powerful. The point isn't that they can use drones, the point is that they can use drones to be better at killing small ships than other ships that were DESIGNED to do this.

And saying that this confers the same OP to carriers is... shall we say, potentially indicative of mental deficiency. Not only will carriers die quickly and easily to a mere 10 battlecruisers while 100 of the same would take much longer to kill a supercarrier (and need T2 support just to tackle it in the first place), but they can only deploy half as many drones... implying that Carriers could possibly in any way have OP damage, even for the sake of argument, is laughable. They are huge, glorified Logistics ships, little more.

Admit that you just want to be able to alpha Dramiels with your Warrior Cloud and we can have done with this silly argument.



highlighted the important part for you, just how long does it take for the little frigate to warp out? So an oil tanker can crush a canoe under its prow, but how long does it take to turn around to try and make another run? should we make oil tankers smaller?

just because you cant fight it with what you have is no reason to nerf it, just get bigger ships, imagine where we would be if everyone felt the same way about battleships when they were the pinnacle of the game? Battleships not allowed in high sec, and the large turrets couldn't target anything under a battle cruiser? and they couldnt dock? no, the whole restrictions and nerfs are wrong. its time to escalate the war, not constrain it to a shoebox instead of the sandbox.


So let me get this straight: You think that Supercarriers should be the absolute best at killing every size of ship in the game (bar the application of Titan Doomsdays), as well as the largest tanks in EVE, with supercapital Ewar and tackle invulnerability... with the sole disadvantage that they have relatively low scan resolution.

I have your number, sir.

Edit: seriously dude, what is missing in that head of yours. Supercarriers are the second largest ship class in the game. You should have known what you were getting into.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

StukaBee
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#343 - 2011-11-16 21:00:13 UTC
Draconus Lofwyr wrote:
Iam Widdershins wrote:

This is a bad argument and you should feel bad. Current Supercarriers are the best thing in the game for killing frigates once they have attained target lock: 20-25 Warrior II drones are pretty ridiculously powerful. The point isn't that they can use drones, the point is that they can use drones to be better at killing small ships than other ships that were DESIGNED to do this.



highlighted the important part for you, just how long does it take for the little frigate to warp out?


Lock time is irrelevant, unless you're suggesting that frigates respond to a supercarrier on the field by warping in and out literally every 20 seconds.

(hint, the frigate pilot doesn't know whether the supercarrier is locking them until the lock is completed).
HelPilot of20Years
Doomheim
#344 - 2011-11-16 21:56:27 UTC  |  Edited by: HelPilot of20Years
Svennig wrote:
Never before realised how whiny some supercaps pilots are. Jesus, anyone would think that they turned them into caracals. They still **** out dps to titans, supers, carriers and dreads. They are still somewhat useful against BS. They still have stupid tanks. They are simply more vulnerable to smaller fleets. You need support.

So much qq because you might actually lose your ship now. Time for you to be reminded of he number one rule of Eve:don't fly what you can't afford to lose.


Spacefriend, you're from reddit. Frankly, you wouldn't know a thing about nulsec or supercarriers. Now, off to your ~animal pictures~, "my mom made a meme", and police state circlejerks: leave the space game stuff to those of us who are actually invested in a years-old MMO.

"stupid tanks"? nope.

"useful against BS"? BS' won't be our problem. Reading comprehension level V, then see the dev blogs from the last few months.

"You need support"? No ****. No one's arguing against that, have you even read this thread?

At this point, so far in the development process, it appears that we've been beaten by CCP. There is no help for some of the many SC pilots whose UNDOCKABLE ships are now brokedick, and we've got pilots stuck in them who could be used for other roles if this nerf goes through...sadly we won't be able to. I, for instance, would like to dock my laughingstock Hel (since CCP refuses to comment on a bridge-to-nowhere ship), and make myself useful again with these t2 siege/triage/command modules. Have plenty of SP, but I'm stuck in CCP's joke.

...designed for [u]one purpose and one purpose only[/u]. ”Imagine a swarm of deadly hornets pouring from the devil’s mouth. Now imagine they have autocannons.” -Unknown Hel designer

Phunnestyle
Doomheim
#345 - 2011-11-16 21:57:47 UTC
Ok heres what CCP have done right & you should be commended for it:

+ Pinging aggro timers,yes commit to the fight.
+ Limit Supercarrier to Fighters/Fighter Bombers

This is what CCP have done wrong, but never the less it is a small price to pay in consideration to other mistakes & is there by aggreable to accept:

+/- Reduction of HP on suppercarriers is basically for the haters, all that needed changing for at least the time being was the above 2 + points.

Now this is what CCP have done drastically wrong & needs changing immediately:

-Drone bays on suppercarriers need to be able to carry an optimal amount of both Fighters & Fighter Bombers. So in other words at least 20 Fighters & 20 Fighterbombers.
This is common sence & logical to all but the most stubborn of fools. While reducing Supers flexibility, you have overstepped your mark & made Supers limited in offencive ploys. For with this rediculious implimentation Supers will as has been said again & again, only be used after the winter patch with Fighters & target painters in the Mids. They will only use Fighters for the most obvious of reasons.
If they are to be intercepted by a Subcap fleet, it is primary among all else that they be at least able to give a fight back. So Fighter Bombers take & indeffinate back seat due to this patch failure. CCP need to acknowledge this failure as soon as possible & as stubborn as we know you are,you need to sort it out & inform us that you wish to sort this stupidity out. This you MUST do as you obviously don't want to give back the skill points intwined with the learning of the Fighter Bombers skill.
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#346 - 2011-11-16 23:05:16 UTC
HelPilot of20Years wrote:
Svennig wrote:
Never before realised how whiny some supercaps pilots are. Jesus, anyone would think that they turned them into caracals. They still **** out dps to titans, supers, carriers and dreads. They are still somewhat useful against BS. They still have stupid tanks. They are simply more vulnerable to smaller fleets. You need support.

So much qq because you might actually lose your ship now. Time for you to be reminded of he number one rule of Eve:don't fly what you can't afford to lose.


Spacefriend, you're from reddit. Frankly, you wouldn't know a thing about nulsec or supercarriers. Now, off to your ~animal pictures~, "my mom made a meme", and police state circlejerks: leave the space game stuff to those of us who are actually invested in a years-old MMO.

"stupid tanks"? nope.

"useful against BS"? BS' won't be our problem. Reading comprehension level V, then see the dev blogs from the last few months.

"You need support"? No ****. No one's arguing against that, have you even read this thread?

At this point, so far in the development process, it appears that we've been beaten by CCP. There is no help for some of the many SC pilots whose UNDOCKABLE ships are now brokedick, and we've got pilots stuck in them who could be used for other roles if this nerf goes through...sadly we won't be able to. I, for instance, would like to dock my laughingstock Hel (since CCP refuses to comment on a bridge-to-nowhere ship), and make myself useful again with these t2 siege/triage/command modules. Have plenty of SP, but I'm stuck in CCP's joke.


Oh god, these tears are delicious. So much anger, and yet so devoid of a coherent argument.

I'm going to ignore the bits where you make yourself look stupid (for example by stating that their tanks aren't insane) and thoroughly address the cogent parts of your post.


.... and I'm done.
Anile8er
Holoband Research and Development
#347 - 2011-11-16 23:53:29 UTC
I like the progress this is making.

I 100% agree with a set of shield implants that are similar to slaves, I do think a drawback of the set should be reduced passive recharge.

The nerf to remote Titan tracking is a great change, thank you.

Changes to Niddy and Hel are looking good.

CCP Tallest I think you really need to consider allowing supercarriers to have a full flight of 20 bombers AND 20 fighters, so 200000m3 bomber/fighter bay. It makes sense.

Also I think giving fighter bombers the range to hit a large POS with force field up should be considered, or allow drones to pass through the force field.
Captain Alcatraz
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#348 - 2011-11-17 04:27:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Alcatraz
CCP Tallest wrote:
Update:

I also want to tell you that there are other very valid concerns that we will be looking into, but they will not make it into the November release. We don't have the solutions to all of these, but as I said, we will to try to find solutions to these issues after the November release.

* Shield leadership bonus should work like an armor bonus and not require recharging shields after every jump.
* Capital ships cyno bumping/bouncing issue
* XL missiles explosion radius and explosion velocity
* There needs to be a shield HP implant set as a counterbalance to the Slave set.
* There needs to be a remote shield boost implant like the 'Gentry' ZEX2000 is for armor
* There need to be deadspace shield invulnerability fields equivalent to the A-Type EANM modules


Shield HP implants are a BAD idea. Armor would need active tanking implants to balance with shield in that case, and it's already a pain having to chose between jumpclones with snakes, slaves and crystals dependings which ship you plan to use, locked in it for 24h. Some people hate to fly a ship with the wrong pirate implants for it, adding shield resist sets will only make that worse
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#349 - 2011-11-17 05:04:06 UTC
Captain Alcatraz wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:
Update:

I also want to tell you that there are other very valid concerns that we will be looking into, but they will not make it into the November release. We don't have the solutions to all of these, but as I said, we will to try to find solutions to these issues after the November release.

* Shield leadership bonus should work like an armor bonus and not require recharging shields after every jump.
* Capital ships cyno bumping/bouncing issue
* XL missiles explosion radius and explosion velocity
* There needs to be a shield HP implant set as a counterbalance to the Slave set.
* There needs to be a remote shield boost implant like the 'Gentry' ZEX2000 is for armor
* There need to be deadspace shield invulnerability fields equivalent to the A-Type EANM modules


Shield HP implants are a BAD idea. Armor would need active tanking implants to balance with shield in that case, and it's already a pain having to chose between jumpclones with snakes, slaves and crystals dependings which ship you plan to use, locked in it for 24h. Some people hate to fly a ship with the wrong pirate implants for it, adding shield resist sets will only make that worse


there is 3 character slots on each account. i suggest you train up more toons if you find it annoying to have to switch up implant sets so frequently.

also, from the discussions i've heard on the subject the reason the shield buffer set is needed so badly is because 1.5bil in implants makes the 4 armor supers take way more damage than their shield counterparts. you are probably right that their needs to be some sort of active armor implants.

I wish they would make it so there was an active implant set for both and that they worked on capital ships. maybe not supers but at least the carriers and dreadnaughts. it probably wouldnt be op in kspace since supers **** dps like its the day after thanksgiving. but, wormhole space would get pretty interesting thats for damn sure.
Sigras
Conglomo
#350 - 2011-11-17 07:23:56 UTC
Anile8er wrote:
I like the progress this is making.

I 100% agree with a set of shield implants that are similar to slaves, I do think a drawback of the set should be reduced passive recharge.

The nerf to remote Titan tracking is a great change, thank you.

Changes to Niddy and Hel are looking good.

CCP Tallest I think you really need to consider allowing supercarriers to have a full flight of 20 bombers AND 20 fighters, so 200000m3 bomber/fighter bay. It makes sense.

Also I think giving fighter bombers the range to hit a large POS with force field up should be considered, or allow drones to pass through the force field.

I would only support this if it were not possible to fit 40 fighter bombers . . . .

Also I dislike being able to use supercarriers to RF a POS. It makes POS defenses trivial because POS guns/neuts dont do anything to supercarriers which are able to receive RR/cap support, wheras with a good POS gunner and a few defenders, a POS can assist in the defense against dreads.
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#351 - 2011-11-17 07:56:37 UTC
HelPilot of20Years wrote:
Svennig wrote:
Never before realised how whiny some supercaps pilots are. Jesus, anyone would think that they turned them into caracals. They still **** out dps to titans, supers, carriers and dreads. They are still somewhat useful against BS. They still have stupid tanks. They are simply more vulnerable to smaller fleets. You need support.

So much qq because you might actually lose your ship now. Time for you to be reminded of he number one rule of Eve:don't fly what you can't afford to lose.


Spacefriend, you're from reddit. Frankly, you wouldn't know a thing about nulsec or supercarriers. Now, off to your ~animal pictures~, "my mom made a meme", and police state circlejerks: leave the space game stuff to those of us who are actually invested in a years-old MMO.

"stupid tanks"? nope.

"useful against BS"? BS' won't be our problem. Reading comprehension level V, then see the dev blogs from the last few months.

"You need support"? No ****. No one's arguing against that, have you even read this thread?

At this point, so far in the development process, it appears that we've been beaten by CCP. There is no help for some of the many SC pilots whose UNDOCKABLE ships are now brokedick, and we've got pilots stuck in them who could be used for other roles if this nerf goes through...sadly we won't be able to. I, for instance, would like to dock my laughingstock Hel (since CCP refuses to comment on a bridge-to-nowhere ship), and make myself useful again with these t2 siege/triage/command modules. Have plenty of SP, but I'm stuck in CCP's joke.



Yes you are right. CCP needs to make the things Dockable now that there nerfed into the ground as they needed to be but at the same time even Capital pilots need to be able to change ships now that it's not One ship to rule them all.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Captain Alcatraz
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#352 - 2011-11-17 11:39:48 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
Captain Alcatraz wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:
Update:

I also want to tell you that there are other very valid concerns that we will be looking into, but they will not make it into the November release. We don't have the solutions to all of these, but as I said, we will to try to find solutions to these issues after the November release.

* Shield leadership bonus should work like an armor bonus and not require recharging shields after every jump.
* Capital ships cyno bumping/bouncing issue
* XL missiles explosion radius and explosion velocity
* There needs to be a shield HP implant set as a counterbalance to the Slave set.
* There needs to be a remote shield boost implant like the 'Gentry' ZEX2000 is for armor
* There need to be deadspace shield invulnerability fields equivalent to the A-Type EANM modules


Shield HP implants are a BAD idea. Armor would need active tanking implants to balance with shield in that case, and it's already a pain having to chose between jumpclones with snakes, slaves and crystals dependings which ship you plan to use, locked in it for 24h. Some people hate to fly a ship with the wrong pirate implants for it, adding shield resist sets will only make that worse


there is 3 character slots on each account. i suggest you train up more toons if you find it annoying to have to switch up implant sets so frequently.

also, from the discussions i've heard on the subject the reason the shield buffer set is needed so badly is because 1.5bil in implants makes the 4 armor supers take way more damage than their shield counterparts. you are probably right that their needs to be some sort of active armor implants.

I wish they would make it so there was an active implant set for both and that they worked on capital ships. maybe not supers but at least the carriers and dreadnaughts. it probably wouldnt be op in kspace since supers **** dps like its the day after thanksgiving. but, wormhole space would get pretty interesting thats for damn sure.


Right now we have to chose between a big armor buffer with terrible speed, great speed with little shield buffer, and insane active tanking, it's fine. Shield buffer implants + nano ships = good speed and good buffer, yuk. If they introduce shield HP implants they need to make them affect caps only, last thing we need in small scale pvp is 60k ehp vagabonds & tornados and 130k ehp drakes
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#353 - 2011-11-17 13:59:58 UTC
assuming they will wind up costing the same or more than slaves. i'm fine with a bc pilot sticking that much loot in their head. it will take a couple more volleys to get to the chocolaty nougat center is all
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#354 - 2011-11-17 14:22:31 UTC
WINMATTAR FOR THE WIN !!!

Dear CCP please remove others races from EVE :)
Sigras
Conglomo
#355 - 2011-11-17 20:37:12 UTC
Rip Minner wrote:
Yes you are right. CCP needs to make the things Dockable now that there nerfed into the ground as they needed to be but at the same time even Capital pilots need to be able to change ships now that it's not One ship to rule them all.

Ever hear of a CSMA?
Sigras
Conglomo
#356 - 2011-11-17 20:39:13 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
assuming they will wind up costing the same or more than slaves. i'm fine with a bc pilot sticking that much loot in their head. it will take a couple more volleys to get to the chocolaty nougat center is all

except for the fact that they'll only ever use them in low sec/high sec where only morons get podded.

No 60,000 EHP vagabonds please
Oh also no 20,000 DPS passive tanks on the Wyvern either please
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#357 - 2011-11-17 20:45:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Sigras wrote:
Rip Minner wrote:
Yes you are right. CCP needs to make the things Dockable now that there nerfed into the ground as they needed to be but at the same time even Capital pilots need to be able to change ships now that it's not One ship to rule them all.

Ever hear of a CSMA?



You would have to be a complete moron to park your super in a CSMA.

Do you have any faction ships, like a Baalghorn or Nightmare? Maybe a nice officer fitted Machariel? You do? Good! Now put 10 of them in your corp's SMA and go do your own thing for a while.

Don't worry, they'll be ~just fine~ there.

CSMAs are about as juicy to pop as a CSAA.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

ogletorp
Decisive Persuits
#358 - 2011-11-17 21:45:37 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Rip Minner wrote:
Yes you are right. CCP needs to make the things Dockable now that there nerfed into the ground as they needed to be but at the same time even Capital pilots need to be able to change ships now that it's not One ship to rule them all.

Ever hear of a CSMA?



You would have to be a complete moron to park your super in a CSMA.

Do you have any faction ships, like a Baalghorn or Nightmare? Maybe a nice officer fitted Machariel? You do? Good! Now put 10 of them in your corp's SMA and go do your own thing for a while.

Don't worry, they'll be ~just fine~ there.

CSMAs are about as juicy to pop as a CSAA.


That and you can't have CSMA's in non-sov systems.
Nizzotch
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#359 - 2011-11-17 22:15:45 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Update:

Supercarriers
* All supercarriers: dronebay +25000 (5 extra fighters/fb)


Is this not happening anymore as per http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4796&tid=1
Prandax Xeon
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#360 - 2011-11-17 22:34:43 UTC
Since you can't have a subcap fleet with you 24/7 to protect you now that you don't have drones, can we now make supers able to dock?

How is a Wyvern like an Ibis?  Neither have a drone bay!