These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#5361 - 2013-10-12 10:27:56 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Ranger 1 wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:



These nerfs are NOT because of PVP.. they are there because of BASTIOn that is a compeltely PVE focused module (because in PVP those capabilities are useles).

THe only PVP buff was the MJD bonus.


Because the more range, E-War immunity and super tank is of no worth in PvPRoll



The range that is irrelevant sicne you cannot move? The Ewar immunity that is near irrelevant since you are less dangerous than a T1 battleship and therefore not gonna be the primary focus of the Ewar boats?

The super tnak that wil ljust make the rest of your fleet die before you,, because they have a full minute they do not need to worry of you runnign away?

This is an amusingly narrow view of how combat takes place in EVE.

Yes, there will be situations where a Marauder component in your fleet will be a poor choice, but not all... not by a long shot.


Marauders are useless in fleets, because the tank will gimp your gank, if it is tanked it will not get shoot till more important stuff is down and it can't even be RRed. People don't bring active tanked Hypes or Mealstorm to fleets, why should they bring a even more expensive ship that can't even get RR? The answer is because again it is pointless. Active tanking is a very small niche in pvp, and balancing the hull around it plus gimping it in any other area that matters makes them overall far more niche than they already where and removes her usefulness in her current niches for the most part on top of it.

Btw the bastion is also very crappy for 99% of the pve stuff, since you don't need that much tank for most stuff and the inability to move plus the speed nerf make them considerable worse, not to mention that bastion is completely useless for RR pve environments like Incs or WH, while the removal of the web bonus and drones really hurts the hull there.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
DSpite Culhach
#5362 - 2013-10-12 11:02:58 UTC
I'm still confused a bit regarding Bastion, then again I'm only familiar with the Golem on SiSi, did a few spins in null anoms.

* The extra missile speeds helps not waste volleys?
* Extra tank seems not to make a difference when you're 100+ KM away.
* MJD was useful before to snipe and move, better reset does not really make a difference, I usually stay put until things get a certain distance. If things spawned on top of you, it probably would, but they tend to spawn near their bases.

* Does NPC EWar reach out 150km+?
* Would Bastion on a Golem only help to land in the middle of spawns and Torp them to death?
* Would it actually tank the 10/10 "Centus Assembly T.P. Co." end Station Ultima EM torps?

I'm not saying Bastion won't be useful, It's just that PvE people were doing fine before Bastion, and I'm not quite sure what Bastion will let them do better that's not re-balanced after the hull changes and the fact you are not moving around anymore.

I can only see some personal niche uses when missioning. As far as PvP, I would not be game to take a bill+ ship out with my crappy combat skills, so I'll stick to cheaper stuff. Less tears that way.

... although they seem fun to go annoy James 315 when used as mining ships.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#5363 - 2013-10-12 11:39:18 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
While the ripping apart small gangs thing is up for debate, that still leaves the stated advantages of the ship and bastion combo that weren't really countered there. So I guess the question of what regarding those aspects you still find less than sufficient still remains.


  1. They cost a billion ISK
  2. 18 seconds to align. That's the same as a hulk. Speed and mobility is king in warfare.
  3. It gets even better; "ripping apart small gangs", that's in bastion mode, where they are not even moving at all. Of course all small gangs are then going to stop moving as well, just to make things fair?
  4. The bastion module - one fatal flaw. All its bonuses are defensive. No one wins a fight by defending. I can happily suicide fleets of tackle while getting a cyno and dread into position, and still win the ISK war handsomely.
  5. MJD? If a marauder uses a MJD, it means it has lost and is running away (which, ultimately, it won't be able to do) and whatever support it had is now dead or dying.
  6. Did I mention they cost a billion ISK?


I'll give you a case in point: the best (and most expensive) PvP battleship is the Bhaalgorn. In four years I've seen it once in nul-sec. See them all the time in WH's thought. The reason why - the mechanics of WH's severely hamper the ability of FC's to escalate any conflict. Those restraints don't exist in nul-sec or indeed in empire.

I'm sure the salvage will be quite good though.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#5364 - 2013-10-12 12:00:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
While the ripping apart small gangs thing is up for debate, that still leaves the stated advantages of the ship and bastion combo that weren't really countered there. So I guess the question of what regarding those aspects you still find less than sufficient still remains.


  1. They cost a billion ISK
  2. 18 seconds to align. That's the same as a hulk. Speed and mobility is king in warfare.
  3. It gets even better; "ripping apart small gangs", that's in bastion mode, where they are not even moving at all. Of course all small gangs are then going to stop moving as well, just to make things fair?
  4. The bastion module - one fatal flaw. All its bonuses are defensive. No one wins a fight by defending. I can happily suicide fleets of tackle while getting a cyno and dread into position, and still win the ISK war handsomely.
  5. MJD? If a marauder uses a MJD, it means it has lost and is running away (which, ultimately, it won't be able to do) and whatever support it had is now dead or dying.
  6. Did I mention they cost a billion ISK?


I'll give you a case in point: the best (and most expensive) PvP battleship is the Bhaalgorn. In four years I've seen it once in nul-sec. See them all the time in WH's thought. The reason why - the mechanics of WH's severely hamper the ability of FC's to escalate any conflict. Those restraints don't exist in nul-sec or indeed in empire.

I'm sure the salvage will be quite good though.


You may want to re-check their current align time.

I also get the strong feeling from this post that you haven't actually flown one on SiSi.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5365 - 2013-10-12 12:08:35 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:


You may want to re-check their current align time.

I also get the strong feeling from this post that you haven't actually flown one on SiSi.


If he has then its only in PvE.
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5366 - 2013-10-12 12:19:19 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:


You may want to re-check their current align time.

I also get the strong feeling from this post that you haven't actually flown one on SiSi.


If he has then its only in PvE.


The MJD is good for both getting into position and getting out. I am getting pretty good at escaping with it now. I killed a Kronos who was aligning and didn't MJD because I had capped him, he almost made it out while in my Golem. He shouldv'e disengaged sooner. I have made the same mistake several times. Engaged a small gang, they couldn't kill me, but I couldn't get them locked down either, I killed the AF then the legion got out of range while a vaga got under my guns (I was in a vargur). The webs would help in that situation, but then I feel the ship would be too powerful. A dread landed, took a shot, I overheated both ASB's and tanked 2 alphas then got out. It survived if only barely against an AF, a HAC, a T3 and a dread while taking out one of them. That is pretty good.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#5367 - 2013-10-12 12:28:49 UTC
Tragedy wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Tragedy wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


It really does not matter if I can over-tank NPC rats, when my DPS is so low I can't kill them as fast as any T1 BS.


DPS is the same and the supertank lets you engage entire roaming gangs alone while being immune to E-war.

They have many advantages over the t1 hulls.

This. A web bonus would be too much. We've been practicing trying to tackle these things in gangs on sisi. Marauders are shitting all over groups of people. You're gonna have a damn hard time holding a point on these unless you get close. You get close you're screwed with a single web and the hulls massive tracking bonus. If you dont get close, even better! You're screwed either way.

Dinsdale, stfu about wanting everything on these damn hulls. Want webs in your incursions? Bring a web ship. Marauders cant do everything, and theres more to this ******* game then incursions.



Guess reading is difficult for you.
I said I don't want any of the crap they are putting on the ships.

Read up 3 or so posts.
If they had increased the scan res and left the rest of the ship alone I would have been happy.
I don't want a wrecked ship.

And yeah, I recognize you live in the "PvP is the only thing that matters" bubble, but I live in the Eve universe where the majority of players have to grind for their ISK, and we need a ship class designed for that.

Actually I live in reality. A reality where these ships will be used for BOTH pve and pvp. They're good at both already right now. I ran sanctums in kronos and vargur last night, it was awesome. Better then they are now. I played cat and mouse with my friends, mjd'ing away before they could get tackles on me.

Ive read tons of your posts. I get it. You miss your web. These ships have changed, they're far, far better now. I dont think you understand just how powerful the ewar immunity is. Or how good the damage projection is, and tracking.

Ytterbaum already said hes gonna address the drone bay. Still, they dont need much more. You see 1 use for these ships. I'm seeing them able to be used in almost every aspect of gameplay in fun ways. Without the need for a web bonus.


I have run the ships.
And the changes are death for those that run them in Incursions.
They are simply not nearly as effective as they once were in VG's, and countless other BS's now surpass them, and that will be proven out starting Nov 19th.

Clearly, I am fighting a losing battle, as usual, as the majority of people here are focusing on the PvP aspects (which will never be used as the hull is way too expensive), and it is clear the dev's are in that camp, and more than happy to put yet another dent in high sec income.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5368 - 2013-10-12 13:17:26 UTC
The cost wil not prevent the usage in PVP. Peopel use far more expensive things commonly. What wil make it not be used is that bastion is a nearly useles module and the marauders are basically LESS powerful than some of the T1 battleships in most pvp scenarios.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5369 - 2013-10-12 14:31:57 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


I have run the ships.
And the changes are death for those that run them in Incursions.
They are simply not nearly as effective as they once were in VG's, and countless other BS's now surpass them, and that will be proven out starting Nov 19th.

Clearly, I am fighting a losing battle, as usual, as the majority of people here are focusing on the PvP aspects (which will never be used as the hull is way too expensive), and it is clear the dev's are in that camp, and more than happy to put yet another dent in high sec income.



Uhh, I think most of the people that like and are defending this build are those that like the solo aspects of this ship.

I personally love that I can run lvl 4 missions with no problem, and there are a lot of people that love the potential with these ships in solo pve.

That said, CCP has already stated that they nerfed the hulls too much.
It's possible that the base hulls will be made usable again.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#5370 - 2013-10-12 15:09:11 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


I have run the ships.
And the changes are death for those that run them in Incursions.
They are simply not nearly as effective as they once were in VG's, and countless other BS's now surpass them, and that will be proven out starting Nov 19th.

Clearly, I am fighting a losing battle, as usual, as the majority of people here are focusing on the PvP aspects (which will never be used as the hull is way too expensive), and it is clear the dev's are in that camp, and more than happy to put yet another dent in high sec income.



Uhh, I think most of the people that like and are defending this build are those that like the solo aspects of this ship.

I personally love that I can run lvl 4 missions with no problem, and there are a lot of people that love the potential with these ships in solo pve.

That said, CCP has already stated that they nerfed the hulls too much.
It's possible that the base hulls will be made usable again.


Yeah, but you could run L4's solo in them BEFORE, and all these changes do is allow you to overtank the ship, while wrecking your effective DPS. Yes, the immunity against jamming is nice against Gurista's, and even the immunity against TD from Sansha's helps with the L4 effectiveness. But all the nerfs on these ships outweigh the buffs in effective DPS, which it all about.
Riddlez Utrigas
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5371 - 2013-10-12 15:41:49 UTC
What about giving the MJD the ability to set the distance we want to jump in between of 10km to 100km to compensate the lower Speed of the marauders? Would be great in pve ;)
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#5372 - 2013-10-12 15:46:12 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
interesting how the high sec guy is saying the ship is useless in pvp due to cost...

well i have tested the ship and its only counter is dreads... and guess what you cant use dreads in high sec...

so really the marauder in bastion will be a beast for high sec pvp.

edit:

the only point i agree with dinsdale is the lower dps.

honestly i would like to see either an improved damage bonus on the ships... like the kronos getting a rate of fire over damage bonus.

or give a 10% damage bonus while in bastion mode.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5373 - 2013-10-12 15:49:39 UTC
Riddlez Utrigas wrote:
What about giving the MJD the ability to set the distance we want to jump in between of 10km to 100km to compensate the lower Speed of the marauders? Would be great in pve ;)


That is why the wont do it. It would also give a very powerful tool in pvp as well. It would be just too good.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5374 - 2013-10-12 15:55:05 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
interesting how the high sec guy is saying the ship is useless in pvp due to cost...

well i have tested the ship and its only counter is dreads... and guess what you cant use dreads in high sec...

so really the marauder in bastion will be a beast for high sec pvp.

edit:

the only point i agree with dinsdale is the lower dps.

honestly i would like to see either an improved damage bonus on the ships... like the kronos getting a rate of fire over damage bonus.

or give a 10% damage bonus while in bastion mode.


Same firepower as t1 BS so its not lacking in firepower.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5375 - 2013-10-12 15:55:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Riddlez Utrigas wrote:
What about giving the MJD the ability to set the distance we want to jump in between of 10km to 100km to compensate the lower Speed of the marauders? Would be great in pve ;)


That is why the wont do it. It would also give a very powerful tool in pvp as well. It would be just too good.



After playing with it on the test server,
it's really easy to hit a gate in two jumps.

All you have to do is triangulate which you can do by eye, and be pretty freaking close.


I did recon 3-3 like this in the gas cloud.

landed 56km from gate upon warp in..

MJD'd out, then to the gate.

Took about 2min 30 sec.. Way faster than I could have flown to the gate, even with a MWD.
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5376 - 2013-10-12 15:57:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassius Invictus
Ok so marauders are now more or less better at lvl 4 missions. Their PvP application is unknown but crap probably. They now need to be made usable in wh and incursions to make them the ultimate PvE ship. We know that Devs won't make any drastic changes so how about:

1) Unnerf the hull (speed, agility and base hp)

2) Move bastion resist bonus onto hull (for Paladin it would give EM 65/Th 55/Kin 55/Ex 58).

3) Add low (kronos/paladin) / mid (vargur/golem) slot for more tank/gank.

4) Make the hull repair bonus also affect rr bonus (this may become to OP with resists on hull...)

Thats it. Points 3 and 4 are not even that needed but would be nice.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#5377 - 2013-10-12 15:58:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Same firepower as t1 BS so its not lacking in firepower.



welll tbh it did loose some dps due to loss of drones... thats a givin


moreover ships like hacs get much more dps then tech I crusiers... so i do not see that much logic is saying well it has same dps as a tech I bs.

honestly 10% damage bonus in bastion and that will make a world of difference.

that and make the range bonus not stack. or increase it if you want it to.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#5378 - 2013-10-12 16:02:25 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Ok so marauders are now more or less better at lvl 4 missions. Their PvP application is unknown but crap probably. They now need to be made usable in wh and incursions to make them the ultimate PvE ship. We know that Devs won't make any drastic changes so how about:

1) Unnerf the hull (speed, agility and base hp)

2) Move bastion resist bonus onto hull.

3) Add low (kronos/paladin) / mid (vargur/golem) slot for more tank/gank.

4) Make the hull repair bonus also affect rr bonus (this may become to OP with resists on hull...)

Thats it. Points 3 and 4 are not even that needed but would be nice.


1. yeah sure

2. no. most i would agree to is giving the ships the old "field command ship" tech II resistance and then the bastion mod getting standard DCU II resists for armor and shield but remains the 30% for hull

3. yeah i gree with this. 8 high slots is too much each ship would greatly benifit from an extra mid or low

4. i have been asking for the internal rep bonus work on external incomming reps for years...
not going to happen

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5379 - 2013-10-12 16:03:09 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Same firepower as t1 BS so its not lacking in firepower.



welll tbh it did loose some dps due to loss of drones... thats a givin


moreover ships like hacs get much more dps then tech I crusiers... so i do not see that much logic is saying well it has same dps as a tech I bs.

honestly 10% damage bonus in bastion and that will make a world of difference.

that and make the range bonus not stack. or increase it if you want it to.


I'm not gonna lie, more dps is always nice, but at the same time it may break the ships and CCP might mistakingly nerf the wrong things to fix it...
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#5380 - 2013-10-12 16:05:01 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Same firepower as t1 BS so its not lacking in firepower.



welll tbh it did loose some dps due to loss of drones... thats a givin


moreover ships like hacs get much more dps then tech I crusiers... so i do not see that much logic is saying well it has same dps as a tech I bs.

honestly 10% damage bonus in bastion and that will make a world of difference.

that and make the range bonus not stack. or increase it if you want it to.


I'm not gonna lie, more dps is always nice, but at the same time it may break the ships and CCP might mistakingly nerf the wrong things to fix it...


i would not mind the repair bonus being reduced to 5% per level or conversely the bastion repair bonus being reduced to 75% so the ship would not be op.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.