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[Rubicon] Electronic Attack Ships

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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#261 - 2013-10-08 13:13:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys

Thanks for the feedback.

So far I'm noticing two major threads
  • wtf are you thinking these are insanely strong (especially in FW frig 1v1 type environments)
  • wtf why didn't you reduce the sig or increase the hp/speed to make them more survivable

    • This seems pretty okay I think. I agree that some of them will make really OP 1v1 ships, but they will probably suffer from the same problems that ships like the dragoon already do - no one will want to fight you. When you move them out of the 1v1 environment and into small groups I think they seem like they will be alright because as the second group says, their survivability still isn't amazing.

    I wouldn't feel comfortable adding drones to the Keres, and it's tempting to remove some from the Sentinel to de-emphasize their role as duelers and push them more towards support. Probably won't do that, but I would prefer that option to adding more dps to the others.

    I'll keep watching the discussion and will also pay really close attention to their use after release and adjust as needed.

    Hopefully they're just really fun


    Dude, with the warp changes it won't be a question of wanting anymore? Have you time how long it is between something showing up on short range scan and it landing on grid? I'm more worried about them coming in as adds to a fight. Also in small frig fleets.

    Also the dragoon gets plenty of fights, at least when i use it.


    I just don't see why the ATTACK ewar ships should be better at staying the **** out of the fight than the t1. I'd think their role would be to be in the thick of it.


    EDIT: Actually, did you just use "Its overpowered so noone will fight it" As an arguement for the balance being ok? O.o

    BYDI recruitment closed-ish

    Michael Harari
    Genos Occidere
    HYDRA RELOADED
    #262 - 2013-10-08 13:27:36 UTC
    Garviel Tarrant wrote:


    EDIT: Actually, did you just use "Its overpowered so noone will fight it" As an arguement for the balance being ok? O.o


    He did.
    Major Killz
    inglorious bastards.
    #263 - 2013-10-08 13:33:05 UTC
    Michael Harari wrote:
    Garviel Tarrant wrote:


    EDIT: Actually, did you just use "Its overpowered so noone will fight it" As an arguement for the balance being ok? O.o


    He did.

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    Kahega Amielden
    Rifterlings
    #264 - 2013-10-08 13:35:46 UTC
    Quote:
    EDIT: Actually, did you just use "Its overpowered so noone will fight it" As an arguement for the balance being ok? O.o


    No, he used the "Balance for solo is not the same as balance for small groups, and we're balancing for small groups" argument. Which is the same one they've always used.
    Garviel Tarrant
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #265 - 2013-10-08 13:40:25 UTC
    Kahega Amielden wrote:
    Quote:
    EDIT: Actually, did you just use "Its overpowered so noone will fight it" As an arguement for the balance being ok? O.o


    No, he used the "Balance for solo is not the same as balance for small groups, and we're balancing for small groups" argument. Which is the same one they've always used.


    Uhm, no.

    They are also overpowered for small groups.

    And making a ship that works well in a fleet at the cost of being overpowered in other situations is not a very good design.

    BYDI recruitment closed-ish

    Kahega Amielden
    Rifterlings
    #266 - 2013-10-08 13:44:44 UTC
    Quote:
    Uhm, no.

    They are also overpowered for small groups.

    And making a ship that works well in a fleet at the cost of being overpowered in other situations is not a very good design.


    A few ships are already like this. For one, the current sentinel...as well as the Dragoon and the Curse. It's pretty hard for a dedicated neuting ship not to be OP in 1v1.
    Altrue
    Exploration Frontier inc
    Tactical-Retreat
    #267 - 2013-10-08 13:45:39 UTC
    Compared to the sentinel that has a drone bay, I think that others EAF like the Kitsune should get a slight damage bonus.

    The Kitsune has an useless 5% capacitor capacity per level, why not including it to the hull like you did for other ships, and remplace it with a 5% kinetic damage per level ? It won't be OP, and it won't hurt compared to 4 drones + 2 turrets...

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    Garviel Tarrant
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #268 - 2013-10-08 13:58:35 UTC
    Kahega Amielden wrote:
    Quote:
    Uhm, no.

    They are also overpowered for small groups.

    And making a ship that works well in a fleet at the cost of being overpowered in other situations is not a very good design.


    A few ships are already like this. For one, the current sentinel...as well as the Dragoon and the Curse. It's pretty hard for a dedicated neuting ship not to be OP in 1v1.


    I'm not talking about 1v1's /o\

    Ewar ships have always been great for small gangs, overpowered even.

    These changes just make it a LOT worse and i don't think it a good change because of that.

    (Also the dragoon and curse aren't really overpowered.. In a honour 1v1 the curse.. maybe.. Dragoon however is just great)

    BYDI recruitment closed-ish

    CCP Rise
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #269 - 2013-10-08 14:13:15 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
    I'm saying that the power level on these was devastatingly bad before, to the point that they were almost never used. It's very normal for e-war focused ships in EVE to be extremely dominant in certain situations while being abysmal in others. I think these look like they are threading the line fairly well.

    My point about them being too strong to engage 1v1 is that at this scale you have a lot of control over your engagements and that leaves some room for them to be powerful considering that as you scale up they quickly get weaker.

    If it turns out that people aren't able to react for some reason and low sec is just swarms of solo Keres pilots we would definitely make some changes, but I don't think that will be the case.

    @ccp_rise
    Garviel Tarrant
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #270 - 2013-10-08 14:19:21 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    I'm saying that the power level on these was devastatingly bad before, to the point that they were almost never used. It's very normal for e-war focused ships in EVE to be extremely dominant in certain situations while being abysmal in others. I think these look like they are threading the line fairly well.

    My point about them being too strong to engage 1v1 is that at this scale you have a lot of control over your engagements and that leaves some room for them to be powerful considering that as you scale up they quickly get weaker.

    If it turns out that people aren't able to react for some reason and low sec is just swarms of solo Keres pilots we would definitely make some changes, but I don't think that will be the case.


    Reacting to frigates warping to you really won't be a thing anymore, 3 seconds is a really really short time to do any reacting.. assuming you hit your short range scan the very moment they are in range of it.


    I just think you could have made them viable through something other than making them better at staying out of danger and screwing you over. The game doesn't need a frigate that neuts at 30 km or one that webs at 26..

    I think this change will make small scale warfare less enjoyable while not making any real positive changes to the larger scale.

    BYDI recruitment closed-ish

    Dinsdale Pirannha
    Pirannha Corp
    #271 - 2013-10-08 14:19:24 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    I'm saying that the power level on these was devastatingly bad before, to the point that they were almost never used. It's very normal for e-war focused ships in EVE to be extremely dominant in certain situations while being abysmal in others. I think these look like they are threading the line fairly well.

    My point about them being too strong to engage 1v1 is that at this scale you have a lot of control over your engagements and that leaves some room for them to be powerful considering that as you scale up they quickly get weaker.

    If it turns out that people aren't able to react for some reason and low sec is just swarms of solo Keres pilots we would definitely make some changes, but I don't think that will be the case.


    Waiting to see your comments when EUNI or goons show up with an entire fleet of Kitsunes jamming at 130 km, far out of the reach of pretty much every ship in the game.

    And nice for you to admit that 1 v1 is not a style of play that CCP supports anymore, which is bizarre given how you played the game yourself.
    Maximus Andendare
    Stimulus
    Rote Kapelle
    #272 - 2013-10-08 14:22:08 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    I wouldn't feel comfortable adding drones to the Keres, and it's tempting to remove some from the Sentinel to de-emphasize their role as duelers and push them more towards support. Probably won't do that, but I would prefer that option to adding more dps to the others.
    I won't give you the same-old "The Keres is a Gallente ship!! Drones!! rabble rabble," but I will say that the Keres builds from the Maulus, which has a nice amount of drones, and the Keres should at least mimic this. Even buffing the drones to two would keep some of the T1 feel. And, for the record, it does feel odd that the Sentinel has the most drones of this group.

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    Kahega Amielden
    Rifterlings
    #273 - 2013-10-08 14:23:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
    Quote:
    I'm not talking about 1v1's /o\

    Ewar ships have always been great for small gangs, overpowered even.

    These changes just make it a LOT worse and i don't think it a good change because of that.


    Ah, I was unaware you were making the distinction between "gang" and "fleet"


    The main thing to worry about is them becoming too tanky. As long as they're glass cannons like other ewar ships (IE can't fit a ginormous tank, like some people on the prior page were suggesting they could), I believe they'll be fine. Keep in mind recons still have stronger ewar and vastly bigger tanks and don't exactly dominate cruiser warfare.

    Quote:
    I won't give you the same-old "The Keres is a Gallente ship!! Drones!! rabble rabble," but I will say that the Keres builds from the Maulus, which has a nice amount of drones, and the Keres should at least mimic this. Even buffing the drones to two would keep some of the T1 feel. And, for the record, it does feel odd that the Sentinel has the most drones of this group.


    The Vengeance builds from the Punisher, but it's not exactly a very strong laser ship, and it certainly doesn't have the same speed. T2 ships are more specialized which often means losing something that the t1 variant had.
    ArmyOfMe
    African Atomic.
    #274 - 2013-10-08 14:23:45 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    When you move them out of the 1v1 environment and into small groups I think they seem like they will be alright because as the second group says, their survivability still isn't amazing.

    The problem here is that if you run into a group that has a couple of these new eaf's, they will be able to stay outside your range while completly locking you down.
    The biggest issue here is that your giving a massive boost to a ship so small and cheap that we will end up seeing tons of them around. And why in gods name would you give them the range boost?? Lets face it, EW in eve is to powerfull as it is. We really dont need to make this game less fun for the majority of the players.

    GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.
    ArmyOfMe
    African Atomic.
    #275 - 2013-10-08 14:26:46 UTC
    Major Killz wrote:
    Michael Harari wrote:
    Garviel Tarrant wrote:


    EDIT: Actually, did you just use "Its overpowered so noone will fight it" As an arguement for the balance being ok? O.o


    He did.


    Not empty quoting

    GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.
    Michael Harari
    Genos Occidere
    HYDRA RELOADED
    #276 - 2013-10-08 14:27:06 UTC
    ArmyOfMe wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:
    When you move them out of the 1v1 environment and into small groups I think they seem like they will be alright because as the second group says, their survivability still isn't amazing.

    The problem here is that if you run into a group that has a couple of these new eaf's, they will be able to stay outside your range while completly locking you down.
    The biggest issue here is that your giving a massive boost to a ship so small and cheap that we will end up seeing tons of them around. And why in gods name would you give them the range boost?? Lets face it, EW in eve is to powerfull as it is. We really dont need to make this game less fun for the majority of the players.


    Pretty much this. Its giving recon bonuses (which are borderline broken already) to ships that can zoom around at 10k/s and lock you extremely quickly.

    Edit: Recon bonuses to ships that cost 10% as much as recons
    Bouh Revetoile
    In Wreck we thrust
    #277 - 2013-10-08 14:30:15 UTC
    Garviel Tarrant wrote:
    Reacting to frigates warping to you really won't be a thing anymore, 3 seconds is a really really short time to do any reacting.. assuming you hit your short range scan the very moment they are in range of it.


    I just think you could have made them viable through something other than making them better at staying out of danger and screwing you over. The game doesn't need a frigate that neuts at 30 km or one that webs at 26..

    I think this change will make small scale warfare less enjoyable while not making any real positive changes to the larger scale.

    I tend to think that EWAR in general would diversify small scale pvp. These EAF don't look that hard to kill in a fight provided you have a fast frigate to hunt them down.
    Calorn Marthor
    Standard Fuel Company
    #278 - 2013-10-08 14:31:21 UTC
    You should bring one of the new marauders to all your frig fights. Awesome range, E-War immunity. Problem solved. ;-)
    Garviel Tarrant
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #279 - 2013-10-08 14:31:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
    I don't mind the ewar bonuses these ships have

    I disagree however with the massive control bonuses they are getting, neuts, points and webs at really long ranges. It basically lets you do no risk pvp where you just lock down your opponent and slowly kill him. I just really think this will have a very negative effect on the enjoyability of small scale fighting in this game.

    Also do i really need to point out why ECM at 150 km is a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE idea? Are our memories really that bad?


    Bouh Revetoile wrote:
    Garviel Tarrant wrote:
    Reacting to frigates warping to you really won't be a thing anymore, 3 seconds is a really really short time to do any reacting.. assuming you hit your short range scan the very moment they are in range of it.


    I just think you could have made them viable through something other than making them better at staying out of danger and screwing you over. The game doesn't need a frigate that neuts at 30 km or one that webs at 26..

    I think this change will make small scale warfare less enjoyable while not making any real positive changes to the larger scale.

    I tend to think that EWAR in general would diversify small scale pvp. These EAF don't look that hard to kill in a fight provided you have a fast frigate to hunt them down.


    Your fast frigate is double webbed at 26 km, now what?

    BYDI recruitment closed-ish

    ArmyOfMe
    African Atomic.
    #280 - 2013-10-08 14:33:33 UTC
    Bouh Revetoile wrote:
    Garviel Tarrant wrote:
    Reacting to frigates warping to you really won't be a thing anymore, 3 seconds is a really really short time to do any reacting.. assuming you hit your short range scan the very moment they are in range of it.


    I just think you could have made them viable through something other than making them better at staying out of danger and screwing you over. The game doesn't need a frigate that neuts at 30 km or one that webs at 26..

    I think this change will make small scale warfare less enjoyable while not making any real positive changes to the larger scale.

    I tend to think that EWAR in general would diversify small scale pvp. These EAF don't look that hard to kill in a fight provided you have a fast frigate to hunt them down.

    Yeah, cause most fast frigs have the sensorstrength to not be jammed by a kitsune, or the range to put damage on a hyena, or abel to survive the god knows how many min it will use to lock a keres etc.

    GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.