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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#4661 - 2013-10-02 14:53:43 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
Ok, hmm ... I see something here. Marauders will be the best hisec mining ship, Let's see:

* No bumping people off belts in Bastion mode.
* Players need billions in isk to alpha gank your Bastion tank
* Sit in Bastion and put webs on other friendly mining ships to help them align and warp faster.
* Are Mining Lasers "large turrets" so people can get 25% more range? No? Damn. Oh well.

In all seriousness, I joined this game to fly pretty ships around. I've been training a Marauder and I will damn fly it regardless of how gimpy weird they get, I'll probably just cry a lot while doing so, but /shrug.

Anyway. I already fly around in a Rattlesnake for missions as my net was flaky (better now, I was monitoring it with an app called JD Auto speed tester, and a 1-2 months ago it was HORRIBLE from 8pm to 2am).

I don't currently see flying a Marauder improving things. I'm not worried about extra damage or tank, I was hoping for more convenience/fun. If I had to once again make up random stuff that would make me park the Rattlesnake and jump into say, a Golem, I might if I could:

* Mount a CovOps cloak
* Salvage/tractor better
* Dial-up range MJD
* Use Bastion Mode like a Death Blossom, meaning short duration, penalty to gun ranges, but high spike DPS, that could actually make me MORE vulnerable to damage for short periods - say it syphons from other systems - ie the reverse of now.

Seems like Bastion is a mode where you turn it ON because if you don't, the DPS will kill you, yet it locks you in place. It's like putting on a suit or armor hoping that the guy with a knife won't find a gap to stab you, and that he gets bored and leaves.

I'd rather throw off my armor, pick up a second battleaxe and charge the bastard. If I make a mistake in my abilities now, at least it's a more interesting death.


in all seriousness i would bring back the idea of making the marauder a "Luxury Battleship", since they clearly don't want to make it actually good at anything, make it fun. Some example bonuses:

increased drone bay
salvage drone bonus
salvage bonus
better loot quality chance on targets killed by marauder
ability to accept and complete missions from outside of station
better tractor bonus / capitol tractor
mining bonus (why the **** not)
add a little billboard
free fireworks
walking-in-station inside ship
ability to manufacture ammo on the go from loot/salvage
ammo bay
load drones from cargo into drone bay
fitting services
update info for hilarity
make bastion mode into luxury mode
give it a hacking bonus because why not
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4662 - 2013-10-02 15:23:02 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
Since we are changing back to the original itteration, why dont we start again with the problems with that version?


what the **** is with a siege mode with no damage bonus?

Range bonus, tank bonus, mjd bonus, What ?

hp nerf speed nerf, then in siege mode, 0ms and no rr




i mean in the end i guess i will use this mutilated abomination.
If its going to suck this hard can we get better drone space (not even bandwidth, just cargo ok?) and a bonus to salvage drones? Give us something "nice" if the ship is going to be useless.

thanks.



Damn..

You are sore about this aren't you?

If you don't like iteration 1, then I would hope to god you think iteration 2 was a troll to make 1 sound better.


having said that,
It is NOT a siege mode. It is a "Bastion" mode.
Siege suggests damage
Triage suggests reps
Bastion suggests tanks.


As per Wikipedia

"A bastion is an angular structure projecting outward from the curtain wall of an artillery fortification. The fully developed bastion consists of two faces and two flanks with fire from the flanks being able to protect the curtain wall and also the adjacent bastions.[1] It is one element in the style of fortification dominant from the mid 16th to mid 19th centuries. Bastion fortifications offered a greater degree of passive resistance and more scope for ranged defense in the age of gunpowder artillery compared with the medieval fortifications they replaced."

If you really want to dig into things,

It's actually siege that doesn't fit its definition..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#4663 - 2013-10-02 15:35:08 UTC
If CCP had come out and said , "We are increasing the scan res on the ship and improving tracking (or range) slightly (10%), and no other changes", people would have been thrilled. T2 resists, while nice, would have not been necessary to keep people happy.

But no, Raivi and Kil2 have been given the keys to the liquor cabinet and are now changing every ship in Eve into "Must DO PVP, screw PvE" ship.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#4664 - 2013-10-02 15:37:41 UTC
Glad I didn't buy the marauders skillbook yet, what a disappointment this revert decision is.

Bastion Kronos without the web bonus fails when fit for blaster brawling, it can't hold targets inside blaster range, and with rails in PVE it can't hit anything that gets close.

For 600-700mil hull this would be ok performance, but not at nearly billion.

.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4665 - 2013-10-02 15:39:06 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
If CCP had come out and said , "We are increasing the scan res on the ship and improving tracking (or range) slightly (10%), and no other changes", people would have been thrilled. T2 resists, while nice, would have not been necessary to keep people happy.

But no, Raivi and Kil2 have been given the keys to the liquor cabinet and are now changing every ship in Eve into "Must DO PVP, screw PvE" ship.


Nope... would have needed a pretty nice sensor strength bonus and a reduction in sig radius as well..
At the very least
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#4666 - 2013-10-02 15:49:47 UTC
stop trying to remove the tractor beam bonus. just because you dont use it doesnt mean everyone else wont also. Whats worst is some people seem to think just because you remove a bonus , that means you can replace it with any other bonus like damage boost.

There is nothing wrong with tractor beams bonus on a marauder, its not OP its not useless , its utility that makes your life a little easier some of the time. if anything, they need to incraese the tractor beam bonus and velocity by at least 100% when bastion is active.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#4667 - 2013-10-02 15:53:46 UTC
Roime wrote:
Glad I didn't buy the marauders skillbook yet, what a disappointment this revert decision is.

Bastion Kronos without the web bonus fails when fit for blaster brawling, it can't hold targets inside blaster range, and with rails in PVE it can't hit anything that gets close.

For 600-700mil hull this would be ok performance, but not at nearly billion.


how do you plan to catch and hold your target inplace when you have bastion active? or do you plan to mwd >>>web>>>bastion >>kill target>>>turn off bastion>>>mwd next target>>>web >>>bastion? ?

the o
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4668 - 2013-10-02 15:57:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Mer88 wrote:
stop trying to remove the tractor beam bonus. just because you dont use it doesnt mean everyone else wont also. Whats worst is some people seem to think just because you remove a bonus , that means you can replace it with any other bonus like damage boost.

There is nothing wrong with tractor beams bonus on a marauder, its not OP its not useless , its utility that makes your life a little easier some of the time. if anything, they need to incraese the tractor beam bonus and velocity by at least 100% when bastion is active.


You're missunderstanding the intent behind the removal of tractor bonus.

CCP announced that they are releasing a small deployable structure that can tractor wrecks and I think cans, and loot them.

So we're wanting to swap it for a salvager and/or salvage drone bonus..


However,

That's assuming the tractor structure doesn't suck, and that the Marauders can carry one.
Lair Osen
#4669 - 2013-10-02 15:59:49 UTC
Roime wrote:
with rails in PVE it can't hit anything that gets close.


With MJD in PvE nothing Should be getting close...
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#4670 - 2013-10-02 16:02:22 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
stop trying to remove the tractor beam bonus. just because you dont use it doesnt mean everyone else wont also. Whats worst is some people seem to think just because you remove a bonus , that means you can replace it with any other bonus like damage boost.

There is nothing wrong with tractor beams bonus on a marauder, its not OP its not useless , its utility that makes your life a little easier some of the time. if anything, they need to incraese the tractor beam bonus and velocity by at least 100% when bastion is active.


You're missunderstanding the intent behind the removal of tractor bonus.

CCP announced that they are releasing a small deployable structure that can tractor wrecks and I think cans, and loot them.

So we're wanting to swap it for a salvager and/or salvage drone bonus..


However,

That's assuming the tractor structure doesn't suck, and that the Marauders can carry one.


i notice people has been asking to remove the tractor beam way before the ccp announcement. I still would argue that tractor beam should be useful since you can use it as you move to the gate unlike a structure.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4671 - 2013-10-02 16:07:24 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
stop trying to remove the tractor beam bonus. just because you dont use it doesnt mean everyone else wont also. Whats worst is some people seem to think just because you remove a bonus , that means you can replace it with any other bonus like damage boost.

There is nothing wrong with tractor beams bonus on a marauder, its not OP its not useless , its utility that makes your life a little easier some of the time. if anything, they need to incraese the tractor beam bonus and velocity by at least 100% when bastion is active.


You're missunderstanding the intent behind the removal of tractor bonus.

CCP announced that they are releasing a small deployable structure that can tractor wrecks and I think cans, and loot them.

So we're wanting to swap it for a salvager and/or salvage drone bonus..


However,

That's assuming the tractor structure doesn't suck, and that the Marauders can carry one.


i notice people has been asking to remove the tractor beam way before the ccp announcement. I still would argue that tractor beam should be useful since you can use it as you move to the gate unlike a structure.



I think the idea we see with the structure is to drop it while you're killing..
However, people are wondering the range, tractor velocity, amount of tractors, and if it draws aggro.

if it passes in all these areas, then it's a huge win.

That said, I think a lot of people want to see the tractor bonus dropped because CCP doesn't seem to want to buff the range, even though the new design is intended for ranged combat, making the mid range capability of tractors virtually useless.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#4672 - 2013-10-02 16:15:07 UTC
Lair Osen wrote:
Roime wrote:
with rails in PVE it can't hit anything that gets close.


With MJD in PvE nothing Should be getting close...


Which means you don't need the bastion mode either.

Confused ships.

.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4673 - 2013-10-02 16:17:36 UTC
Roime wrote:
Lair Osen wrote:
Roime wrote:
with rails in PVE it can't hit anything that gets close.


With MJD in PvE nothing Should be getting close...


Which means you don't need the bastion mode either.

Confused ships.



Unless you prefer to use close range weapons like a lot of people do.

I used to use a torp Golem till cruise missiles got better.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#4674 - 2013-10-02 16:22:38 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

A web bonus on a ship that sits still is near useless to me.


web STRENGHT bonus yes. but if was a web RANGE bonus...

That might be nice too, but I bet there'd be someone crying about that in about 0.5 seconds after CCP anounced a change like that.


A web range bonus is pretty pointless for L4 since it doesn't allow to keep sentry/long-range dps up or take out frigs at point blank, also for a lot of other applications the web strength is a lot better.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Ryder Starhawk
Slow Chidlren at Play
SL0W CHILDREN AT PLAY
#4675 - 2013-10-02 16:28:49 UTC
Here is an Idea

If the Marauder is going to be a "Mini Dread" so to speak; why not give the ships the ability to fit Capital Weapons.

A gateway training path to an actual Dreadnaught.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4676 - 2013-10-02 16:40:11 UTC
Ryder Starhawk wrote:
Here is an Idea

If the Marauder is going to be a "Mini Dread" so to speak; why not give the ships the ability to fit Capital Weapons.

A gateway training path to an actual Dreadnaught.



Now, where's the no like button?
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4677 - 2013-10-02 16:40:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Debora Tsung wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
People do all the time. And besides, the point is you would get into web range before dropping into bastion (hello MJD bonus...)


Fair enough, how do you get into web range then, your marauder is atrociously slow, even with MWD. You'd need a tackler just to tackle the guy... Ugh


There are very few pilots that have the skills and cunning to take a 1 bliionin isk battleship on a solo roam and survive. All the other people who do this are complete idiots and will die 99% of the time.

The marauders should have a web range bonus which any experienced pvp'er would be able to make use of. You could easily dual prop the ship which would enable you to MJD to your target and get into web range using a conventional prop mod. Once in range, you hit bastion and try to kill your target before they escape web/point range.

Personally i think the web bonus should be added as a bonus gained from the bastion module its self. This way it would not directly compete with pirate faction BS.

If these new marauders can be kited at point range, i don't think they will be worth using in pvp.

Ps. why do we need a tractor bonus now that ccp will be introducing that looting structure?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4678 - 2013-10-02 16:56:32 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
People do all the time. And besides, the point is you would get into web range before dropping into bastion (hello MJD bonus...)


Fair enough, how do you get into web range then, your marauder is atrociously slow, even with MWD. You'd need a tackler just to tackle the guy... Ugh


There are very few pilots that have the skills and cunning to take a 1 bliionin isk battleship on a solo roam and survive. All the other people who do this are complete idiots and will die 99% of the time.

The marauders should have a web range bonus which any experienced pvp'er would be able to make use of. You could easily dual prop the ship which would enable you to MJD to your target and get into web range using a conventional prop mod. Once in range, you hit bastion and try to kill your target before they escape web/point range.

Personally i think the web bonus should be added as a bonus gained from the bastion module its self. This way it would not directly compete with pirate faction BS.

If these new marauders can be kited at point range, i don't think they will be worth using in pvp.

Ps. why do we need a tractor bonus now that ccp will be introducing that looting structure?


I am strongly against any changes if it's at the cost of the current build, apart from tractor bonus.

web strength/range bonus will in no way strengthen these ships if it costs them any other bonus.
Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
#4679 - 2013-10-02 17:22:34 UTC
Everyone is going batshit crazy about the tractor beam structure without knowing the slightest thing about it.

You don't know the range of the tractors. You don't know the volume (hint: it's not going to be 5 m3).

You don't know if you can pick it up again. Good luck in AE if you have to drop a tractor structure every room.

You don't know how much it costs.

The current tractor beam bonus is very useful, and as been mentioned CCP is not going to give you a major DPS bonus in its place. Changing it to a salvage drone bonus just means that instead of waiting for wrecks to be salvaged, you're waiting to slowboat into 24km range to tractor the cans. And honestly even at Salvage Drone 4 I find the speed of salvaging perfectly acceptable especially compared to the time it takes using normal Salvager modules. Most of the time the wreck is salvaged before I can even tractor it in from 40km away.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4680 - 2013-10-02 17:26:46 UTC
Dorororo wrote:
Everyone is going batshit crazy about the tractor beam structure without knowing the slightest thing about it.

You don't know the range of the tractors. You don't know the volume (hint: it's not going to be 5 m3).

You don't know if you can pick it up again. Good luck in AE if you have to drop a tractor structure every room.

You don't know how much it costs.

The current tractor beam bonus is very useful, and as been mentioned CCP is not going to give you a major DPS bonus in its place. Changing it to a salvage drone bonus just means that instead of waiting for wrecks to be salvaged, you're waiting to slowboat into 24km range to tractor the cans. And honestly even at Salvage Drone 4 I find the speed of salvaging perfectly acceptable especially compared to the time it takes using normal Salvager modules. Most of the time the wreck is salvaged before I can even tractor it in from 40km away.



He's a quote from me..

Quote:
I think the idea we see with the structure is to drop it while you're killing..
However, people are wondering the range, tractor velocity, amount of tractors, and if it draws aggro.

if it passes in all these areas, then it's a huge win.

That said, I think a lot of people want to see the tractor bonus dropped because CCP doesn't seem to want to buff the range, even though the new design is intended for ranged combat, making the mid range capability of tractors virtually useless.