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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Vulfen
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4361 - 2013-09-30 10:45:22 UTC
I Think CCP has done a good job with these ships now the balance is good however i think that 8 highs is too many i dont see the need for these ships to be given n extra high slot in order to fit the Bastion module, i think they should be left as 7 high slots, then the Vagur can have 1 extra low, and the rest an extra midslot.

I wouldn't give another mid to the Vargur or you run the risk of someone rolling an nye-on unbreakable ASB tank. the golem would still get a mid to allow it to use a web and paint at the same time.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4362 - 2013-09-30 11:01:06 UTC
Vulfen wrote:
I Think CCP has done a good job with these ships now the balance is good however i think that 8 highs is too many i dont see the need for these ships to be given n extra high slot in order to fit the Bastion module, i think they should be left as 7 high slots, then the Vagur can have 1 extra low, and the rest an extra midslot.

I wouldn't give another mid to the Vargur or you run the risk of someone rolling an nye-on unbreakable ASB tank. the golem would still get a mid to allow it to use a web and paint at the same time.


/agreed

Though I'm not sure how many players would use it on a Golem.



One major issue I have though is that without the resistance buff that bastion iteration 1 gave, there's not a whole lot of reasoning behind the bastion module.

CCP could just take the current iteration hull, and cook the ewar immunity and rep boost bonus into the hull.
I don't think the range bonus of bastion is at all worth immobility, as anyone who has flown a Marauder already has a setup that works without the range bonus.

The nerfs to the base hull is already enough balance to allow the immunity and rep bonus to be applied directly to the hull.

So, it would look more like

Golem

Role bonuse
100% bonus to missile damage
Immune to ewar
Shield boost amount increase by X%

Then blah blah blah on the Marauder and Caldari BS bonuses...


With the proposed hull nerfs it would work well, as they would already be extremely slow, not have much HP, less cap, slower align, and whatever else CCP nerfed.



I'm not saying this is the right thing to do, I'm just saying without resist buff in bastion, there's not a lot of point to bastion when the bonuses left for bastion that are worth anything can be attached directly to the hull and still wouldn't make it OP.

Extremely powerful, but not OP.

You could even kill off the MJD bonus with this design, but again, I would rather them work something else out.
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
#4363 - 2013-09-30 11:04:42 UTC
As much as the changes will be interesting, I just dont like the new meta that seems to be getting imposed on all the marauders.

My current setup has an AB on the Vargur - I get nice speed, and I actually 'fly' the ship in missions to get into range, create traversal, manouver - like I said - fly it.

The new marauders will be like all mission ships now! Sit still, take a pounding, shoot from MJD range. I'm sorry - but its just dull. The T1 BS all do this, all do it as expected using the MJD for range. Seeing my Vargur become another Maelstrom is just bland - its going to be slow and lumbering. Is there any difference bar the price for a T2 tank?

Isn't this meant to be a Tempest Hull. a large battlecruiser in disguise?

If you are going to add a midslot bonus (web) on it, then why cant it have another mid for the sake of a superfluous high? Its never going to fit a web if its sitting still 100k from a target, and if its got a web, then it wont be using the bastion module, so it will need it mids to tank. Same for the Golem in many ways.

The new Marauders will just be a homogenised T2 battleship - small variations per race, same bonuses, no choices.

Sad Panda.
Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4364 - 2013-09-30 11:31:42 UTC
I keep seeing people post EFT numbers on repair potential with and without bastion that are simply created in a vacuum. They simulate maximum numbers with billions of ISK in modules, implants, and pills. You'll also notice that those posts don't include running time at those numbers, DPS potential, or any other pertinent information about how that ship would operate on the field.

It simply doesn't provide any real benefit to this discussion as these would be considered fail-fits when viewed holistically. Regardless of the maximum repair potential these ships are tens of thousands of EHP short of their T1/faction/pirate battleship cousins and will quite easily be F1'd off the field in even moderate size engagements.

I do find the remote repair platform version of the Paladin posted above interesting. However, even if it did rep the same amount as 2 guardians, at what range would it do so? Also, the benefit of 2 guardians is that you only loose half your gang/fleets repair potential if you lose one of them. You can also field 2 guardians for much cheaper and the two together would have significantly more EHP between the two of them.

I'm all for collecting information about what these hulls are capable of using the current iteration numbers. However, I think we need to ensure that those numbers are representative of real-world viable fits. Otherwise all we are doing is providing a skewed picture to the devs and community that will ultimately ensure the Marauder class is subpar compared to anything else.

Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things.

Signal11th
#4365 - 2013-09-30 11:56:09 UTC
This sounds like someone new has arrived at CCP towers with great new ideas and he/she is really infectious with their enthusiasim. Then someone actually thought about it.......

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!

chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#4366 - 2013-09-30 11:56:20 UTC
Vulfen wrote:
I Think CCP has done a good job with these ships now the balance is good however i think that 8 highs is too many i dont see the need for these ships to be given n extra high slot in order to fit the Bastion module, i think they should be left as 7 high slots, then the Vagur can have 1 extra low, and the rest an extra midslot.

I wouldn't give another mid to the Vargur or you run the risk of someone rolling an nye-on unbreakable ASB tank. the golem would still get a mid to allow it to use a web and paint at the same time.

Imma say +2 lows on the vargur. Mainly because if it is losing it sb bonus it is likely going to need 4 slots to do a proper shield tank well outside of bastion, which means dropping a tc. It would also allow it to roll similar dps on an armor tank, and have a 1 mid slot adv over the mach
Vulfen
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4367 - 2013-09-30 12:43:40 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:

Imma say +2 lows on the vargur. Mainly because if it is losing it sb bonus it is likely going to need 4 slots to do a proper shield tank well outside of bastion, which means dropping a tc. It would also allow it to roll similar dps on an armor tank, and have a 1 mid slot adv over the mach

you have to keep it in line with the others so it will only get 1 slot not 2. and i think it will do fine with just the additional 1 low, you cannot compare this to a mach as a mach works in a different way.

People need to remember these ships will be very niche they will likely never be used by big alliances due to their cost (for pvp) and you dont really need the most mobile ship to run missions/plexs.

CCP have nerfed the hull... true, this is to make people use what the ship is supposed to be used for. the bastion mod itself will be a supplement used mainly in pve, or medium sized lowesec gang pvp, with all the new changes that ccp announced in the recent twitch feed they will be even better.

However at the same time in the twitch feed the auto looter was announced, this makes me question does the marauder class really need a tractor beam bonus? i don't think it does CCP should remove this from the hull completely perhaps adding in a 50% Smartbomb range boost, or a buff that does not necessarily only lend itself to PVE situations.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#4368 - 2013-09-30 12:50:51 UTC
Here's a few things that everyone seems to have a consensus on:

1. The introduction of the mobile 'loot' structure with Rubicon has killed the Marauder as an active salvage platform (dead, dead, dead), so tractor-based bonuses are completely redundant.
2. Four high utility slots is just insane. Marauders should receive a mid slot instead and, ideally - exchange another high slot for a low (two utility slots are still plenty, especially considering the above).
3. T2 resists and the proposed tweaks to the specifications for the ships are fine, provided they retain the original shield boost and armor repair bonus.
4. The MJD bonuses allow for some interesting long-range applications.
5. Bastion and the animation is a COOL concept, but it's a mixed bag of snakes at this point (and we won't even touch on the stasis webs).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#4369 - 2013-09-30 13:19:30 UTC
Vulfen wrote:
I Think CCP has done a good job with these ships now the balance is good however i think that 8 highs is too many i dont see the need for these ships to be given n extra high slot in order to fit the Bastion module, i think they should be left as 7 high slots, then the Vagur can have 1 extra low, and the rest an extra midslot.

I wouldn't give another mid to the Vargur or you run the risk of someone rolling an nye-on unbreakable ASB tank. the golem would still get a mid to allow it to use a web and paint at the same time.


But, why would I use a webber on my golem when a second painter does the job just as well only with 90km range? (falloff included ofc).

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#4370 - 2013-09-30 13:22:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Here's a revised Bastion concept. Bastion becomes a Marauder skill-based feature, with a duration of 30-150 seconds (depending on level). The following only apply when activated:

  • EWAR immunity
  • Heat absorption ... +20% heat per level
  • Stasis web ... +7.5% velocity per level
  • Weapon Rate of fire ... +5% per level (pulse lasers, blasters, torpedoes and autocannons only)
  • Ship Velocity and Agility ... +5% per level (each)

  • As Bastion no longer renders a ship immobile, it has the following drawbacks:

  • Fixed 5 minute cool down
  • 25% capacitor module increase (reduced by 5% per level)
  • 50% targeting range reduction (reduced by 5% per level)

  • What we effectively end up with is the improved MJD allowing Marauders to setup for long-range and Bastion becomes the perfect component for all short-range engagements. And the previous Marauder bonuses now make a lot more sense. In fact, with some slot reassignment (discussed in previous posts) short-range fits might not even opt for MJD - which yields an extra slot or two to run stasis webs, sensor boosters, etc.

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

    BaBaBarbara Ann
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #4371 - 2013-09-30 13:36:41 UTC  |  Edited by: BaBaBarbara Ann
    Well I'm flying a Golem in a null sec drone region, and you know what? it's awsome running patarol with a torpy golem with 25M isk/tik + 5-15 M salvaging (3 patrol/hour, 1 patrol tik).

    Now i'd like a refound for the marauder skill and i want someone (maybe a dev Lol ) to come here and buy my golem (i wont bring it to empire Bear )

    Torpy golem is useless everywhere but here, like i said, and here for me a 25M isk/tik is a very effective ship BUT with the upcoming patch the Golem will be nerfed too much as far as

    TANKING NERF
    it will LOOSE THE 7,5% sb bonus replaced by a flat 30% from bastion (is 7,5% less)
    it will have SAME RESIS ( golem now is 0% and 50%,it'll get 0 and 50%, Alvus Queen thanks you)
    cap recharge nerf

    SALVAGING NERF
    Salvage drones or Scout drones that's the question.
    Art Thou shalt drop my bandwith, not my drone bay!


    ESCAPING SLOWED
    -bastion
    -neutral come from wh
    - un-bastion
    - alling

    neut: "hello Golem, wanna meet my scramb?)
    me: "ofc, sure, do as you please"
    neut: "ty, you are very kind"
    me: "np, you are welcome"
    net: "Can i call some friends?"
    me: "Sure, do it, the more we are the better!"



    So i've trained a PVE boat, you know, for PVE! Why the hell I've to find myself in a pvp boat??

    With the same logic MAKE THE MACHARIEL AN INDY!
    all together: "MAKE THE MACHARIEL AN INDY!"


    I apologize but with my all lvl 5 skilled TENGU i can reach 17M/tik at best (running horde) and with the upcoming patch my golem won't run patrol like this so it means a loss of 500 M isk month +/-

    If only i could trade my golem with a RSI Roll
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #4372 - 2013-09-30 13:43:11 UTC
    ^^ Too funny.

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

    CCP Ytterbium
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #4373 - 2013-09-30 14:24:43 UTC
    Hey people,

    We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

    With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. We’ll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.

    That means:


    • Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
    • Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus


    We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.

    Thanks for your time.
    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #4374 - 2013-09-30 14:28:40 UTC
    finally common sense has prevailed ... at least for now Smile

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

    Vulfen
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #4375 - 2013-09-30 14:29:22 UTC
    BaBaBarbara Ann wrote:
    Well I'm flying a Golem in a null sec drone region, and you know what? it's awsome running patarol with a torpy golem with 25M isk/tik + 5-15 M salvaging (3 patrol/hour, 1 patrol tik).

    Now i'd like a refound for the marauder skill and i want someone (maybe a dev Lol ) to come here and buy my golem (i wont bring it to empire Bear )

    Torpy golem is useless everywhere but here, like i said, and here for me a 25M isk/tik is a very effective ship BUT with the upcoming patch the Golem will be nerfed too much as far as

    TANKING NERF
    it will LOOSE THE 7,5% sb bonus replaced by a flat 30% from bastion (is 7,5% less)
    it will have SAME RESIS ( golem now is 0% and 50%,it'll get 0 and 50%, Alvus Queen thanks you)
    cap recharge nerf

    SALVAGING NERF
    Salvage drones or Scout drones that's the question.
    Art Thou shalt drop my bandwith, not my drone bay!


    ESCAPING SLOWED
    -bastion
    -neutral come from wh
    - un-bastion
    - alling

    neut: "hello Golem, wanna meet my scramb?)
    me: "ofc, sure, do as you please"
    neut: "ty, you are very kind"
    me: "np, you are welcome"
    net: "Can i call some friends?"
    me: "Sure, do it, the more we are the better!"



    So i've trained a PVE boat, you know, for PVE! Why the hell I've to find myself in a pvp boat??

    With the same logic MAKE THE MACHARIEL AN INDY!
    all together: "MAKE THE MACHARIEL AN INDY!"


    I apologize but with my all lvl 5 skilled TENGU i can reach 17M/tik at best (running horde) and with the upcoming patch my golem won't run patrol like this so it means a loss of 500 M isk month +/-

    If only i could trade my golem with a RSI Roll


    Allow me to put your mind at ease... you DON'T have to bastion so you can run away...
    CCP doesnt want to make it so people like you can go around making money all day with no real risk

    RISK=REWARD
    chaosgrimm
    Synth Tech
    #4376 - 2013-09-30 14:29:37 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Hey people,

    We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

    With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. We’ll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.

    That means:


    • Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
    • Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus


    We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.

    Thanks for your time.

    Tyvm for the update
    Omnathious Deninard
    Ministry of Silly Walks.
    Parasitic Legion.
    #4377 - 2013-09-30 14:30:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Hey people,

    We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

    With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. We’ll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.

    That means:


    • Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
    • Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus


    We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.

    Thanks for your time.

    It did seem to be the most effective means of using it in both PvP and PvE
    Edit: Does this mean we wont have much time to test them on SiSi?

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #4378 - 2013-09-30 14:38:02 UTC
    now how about removing the TP bonus from the golem?
    the others don't have a TC bonus after-all forcing golems to give up a mid slot is unfair and odd... it's not an e-war ship so why have it?

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

    Dinsdale Pirannha
    Pirannha Corp
    #4379 - 2013-09-30 14:38:51 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Hey people,

    We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

    With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. We’ll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.

    That means:


    • Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
    • Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus


    We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.

    Thanks for your time.


    You really have no clue what to do with these ships. do you now?
    Flipping back to the original disastrous changes, and then hedging your bets that things will change again once you get Sisi feedback...right...sure.

    Let's see.....Nov 19th is 7 weeks away, you have to lock down code at least a week before that.
    This mess is nowhere near Sisi yet, so exactly what is the window going to be for testing, evaluating feedback, putting out a new set, then evaluating that feedback, then locking down code?

    Yeah, this will end well.
    Mina Sebiestar
    Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
    #4380 - 2013-09-30 14:43:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Hey people,

    We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.

    With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. We’ll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.

    That means:


    • Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
    • Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus


    We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.

    Thanks for your time.


    Lol..what, you ppl are meh.

    You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

    Because >>I is too hard