Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I did, there's nothing to indicate that you meant anything about shifting the resists.

Also as I mentioned in another post, shifting resists would just **** off another segment of the PvE crowd along with the PvP people as well.

This whole point becomes largely moot if they get the local repair bonus back on the hulls.



No, but the solution to this isn't to kill their PvE utility either.

What makes a ship specialized is unique bonuses like the ability to fit the Bastion module or the MJD bonus. These both can be applied, situationally, to either PvP or PvE.



No, but Ytterbium's posts have focused on PvE situations, the majority of their use currently is in PvE, and it's pretty clear that neither the devs nor the player-base (or at least that segment that currently uses Marauders) want their PvE viability to be nerfed, especially if it's to turn them into a PvP god-ship...

*sigh* I was hoping not to have to post this in here, but I guess I will have to.

First and foremost, make the marauders viable WITHOUT the gorram module. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice fancy bonus, but I have no intention of ever fitting it. The loss of remote repping and the loss of mobility make fitting that module utterly worthless to me in both PvP and PvE, no matter the bonuses it provides. Immunity to EW almost makes it worth losing one of those, but not both.

Secondly, MJDs? Still? They're pointless for a reason. They're nearly worthless in PvP (reasonable escape module, but meh), and their fitting costs (loosing a mid slot, specifically) are painful. If you allow MJDs to have a variable distance (between 50 and 250 km; the distance decided when you activate it in the field), it might be remotely useful to people. I'll still take my MWD tho. If you make it an innate ability of the ship and remove MJDs altogether, I'll gladly take it. Otherwise, no thanks. It's just not viable over my MWD.

Lastly: here's a set of bonuses that might actually make people happy (I say "might" because there is no guarantee it'll work). Give 'em Tech 2 resists, keep the bonuses as they are now (with the addition of the role bonuses "Can fit Bastion modules" and "X adjustment to MJD" as you like, maybe a bit of tuning on the amount of the current bonuses without changing the bonus type) and keep the drone bays as they are. This way people can actually have some choice in how they fit the ship, but still have it be very good for sniping with the reworks you want. It will let marauders as a whole be a varied, functional, and useful battleships, rather than just being incredibly expensive trash cans.

That's my 2 cents.

Oh? Last I checked they weren't usable in deadspaces. It'd give you that "local phenomena is interfering" pop-up. Admittedly, it's been a long time since I've bothered fitting one, but I don't recall spotting that in any patch notes.

huh.... well, this will prompt an edit then :P

Disrupted, then. And I believe they're 1-point disruptors, since 2-points does kill MJD (and warp cores don't help).

I don't want raw damage, I want an option that doesn't focus on boxing myself into a figurative ball and killing anything that tries to come close, the current bastion proposal makes these ships unassailable to everything but alpha, what i suggest instead is to give them the option to be effectively suicidal.

you have on these ships with proposed bastion:

massive repair rates, HUGE damage projection through combination of tracking optimal/falloff stasis webs AND damage bonus, huge cap warfare through 2/3 vamps/nuets NOTHING can approach these hulls in bastion it'll all die trying - and even if they do get in tackle range to do something about these hulls...guess what? they're ewar immune, so you can't grab hold of em even if you wanted to.

and you think what i suggest makes them a god boat?

for every action i can take in a fight i must have to put myself at real risk to do it - this version of bastion doesn't do that - the only vulnerability it leaves is alpha strikes, and those will kill you bastion or no - ccp designing ships around "oh my god quick lets pull range to where they can't get us and just bunker down!!"

all i'm giving them is the ability to single out one guy on the field at the expense of mobility and range, fleet doctrines that already exist (tier 3 battle cruisers notably) will be able to dodge this ship as easily as they could alpha them off the field under the current proposal.

side note: a bastion is a castle (more accurately part of its fortification), a fortress designed to shelter the ones inside from harm, a defensive option of last resort - ccp's current iteration more closely matches the definition of a walled unassailable stronghold than what i suggested, and why i chose to counter them on their terms by using the idea of a marauder, being an entity that doesn't rely on bastions.

Only the shield tanked marauders can reach "invulnerable except for alpha" status with 3-5k dps tanks (with only a deadspace booster and T2 support) due to the availability of oversized repair modules. The armor tanked hulls top out around 1800 dps tanks with a deadspace repper. Add an additional 500mil worth of deadspace support and you can get into the shield levels. Just three ships with 800 dps apiece will kill a bastioned armor hull in less than 40 seconds due to raw dps, not alpha.

There's too many mixed messages from the hull bonuses coupled with the lackluster bastion module to really even figure out what role is intended for this ship class. I think we're just going to have to wait for the devs to put together a more fleshed out plan and go from there. I think we can all (PVP, PVE mission, and PVE wh/incursion pilots alike) agree that the current version doesn't really please anyone all that much.

Lore or description wise, ok sure. However from a mechanics and mission efficiency standpoint, shooting lasers into your enemy's best and second best resists doesn't sound very appealing. Also, the reverse example you gave of a vargur in amarr space has a distinct advantage since they have selectable damage ammo.

..which is why pirate ships have greater base damage but less utility, they mirror the equivalent t2 ships in role but are only as good/better at one part of the t2's role, compared on the whole and in a wider range of circumstances the t2's will almost always be rated higher (i've found the smaller the ship hull is the more useful the faction variant seems over the t2, while this isn't necessarily the case, it's something Ive put down to being a by product of limited fitting space/ability on (some of) the smaller hulls when compared to the heavier ones)


compare the dramiel and daredevil to the t2 interceptors
think back, compare the cynabal and Ashimmu with ships like the vagabond and curse (prior the recent rebalance)
compare the battle ships with the marauders

notice the similarities? and the performance shifts? everything you've been saying regarding the pirate hulls is accurate, they are good at doing one thing, t2 are good at doing one thing - but also have a bit of extra off the side (the amount they have is as i said, dependent often on hull class)

in almost all cases the t2 were better at doing the same job than faction as you go up the hull classes in pvp, why?

because t2 ships have a broader range of options than the very focused faction hulls, pirate's built to do just one thing better than the t2, and fall just short everywhere else - (normally the shortcoming is on the defensive side of the scale due to resistance profiles, speed, sensor strength etc etc) they are not big differences at first glance but they do matter when you're moving between different and not easily predictable engagement scenarios (pvp).

in the marauder specific case i've said many times, the difference is in utility yes marauders fall 1-300 dps short of the pirate counter parts, but in turn have gained more base defense and the ability to carry remote repair or capacitor warfare mods(think of RR as a reduction of enemy dps ability for every shield rep i put onto an ally the amount of damage that's actually killing him decreases - same for nuets and vamps if the guy i'm fighting uses lasers or hybrids, 'increases' my damage when his tank mods die due to cap drain)

yes it costs me sensor strength and scan res over the pirate battleship, but this is a very valid weakness for a ship with such broad potential
- which is why gangs using marauders use smaller ships with projected ECCM or remote sensor boosters to off set their deficiency (see HUN reloaded in previous AT matches as to how this is done)


these aren't facets of play you see in PVE missions (L1-4), you do see this in wormhole space and incursion PVE however. (though less on capacitor warfare as NPC's have "infinite capacitor" thus can never have tank or guns disabled as a player would)

they have, personally I have no issues with how the pirate hulls work now, because my understanding of t2 is that they can do the same role just with a slightly different set of advantages - the more options I have in pvp in terms of ships that do different variations of things the better combat is overall.

i want to be able to anticipate what the opposition might do, which tools i might need, i want to be able to build fleet doctrines tailored around the specific edge advantages each hull group gives me - if i need more raw damage potential i'll use pirate hulls, but if i need something that can act more defensively or subversively i'll take marauders (marauders with MJD would be great for under cutting cap chain logistics ships for example)

the differences don't have to be large but i do like them to be more or less equivalent, so where one ship falls short it compensates by doing something else better.