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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2501 - 2013-09-05 12:44:54 UTC
Having mulled the bastion 2.0 changes in my head during my lunch break I honestly can't see these ships ever being used outside of the Blockade, and that is just really really sad.

Remove the ridiculous web bonuses, return it's non bastion tank.

The OP states that they (CCP) would like to see the ship uses expanded to include niche PVP situations. The addition of T2 resists and the crys of people complaining about its inability to receive reps smells like business as usual in null, definately not niche.

In the current guise, even if the Paladin grew to the size of planet, transformed into Unicron and used an Avatar as a weapon Megatron stylee it wouldn't be cool enough to warrant flying it.





...But it could tank angel extraveganza bonus room forever, even longer than my attention span would last. Just as well as it would take forever to clear using lasers Roll
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2502 - 2013-09-05 12:45:41 UTC
Zendon Taredi wrote:
I dont care what you do as long as it remains the best PVE ship in the game. That's what we all trained for. We didnt train for a ship with a tractor beam bonus on it so that one day it could turn into a pvp ship. Get your **** together.


I'm more worried about the fact that so many people seem to only care about its level four mission performance, and not care about any other forms of PvE. The last round of changes is a vast improvement to its PvE ability in incursions, wormholes, lowsec, and nullsec, and everyone is crying because now it only knocks L4 mission difficulty down to "profoundly autistic" instead of going all the way to "syphilitic ******** monkey" levels of easy.
Mole Guy
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2503 - 2013-09-05 12:48:04 UTC
Zendon Taredi wrote:
I dont care what you do as long as it remains the best PVE ship in the game. That's what we all trained for. We didnt train for a ship with a tractor beam bonus on it so that one day it could turn into a pvp ship. Get your **** together.

dont use "we" in this statement, use "i".
a lot of "we" want a general all around good ship.
besides, the bonus is barely adequate anyway. if it were 100km range and a base +50% chance of better salvager, then hell yeah, but my rigged noctis turns circles around my paladin.
Zendon Taredi
Tier Four Technologies
#2504 - 2013-09-05 12:53:24 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
Zendon Taredi wrote:
I dont care what you do as long as it remains the best PVE ship in the game. That's what we all trained for. We didnt train for a ship with a tractor beam bonus on it so that one day it could turn into a pvp ship. Get your **** together.

dont use "we" in this statement, use "i".
a lot of "we" want a general all around good ship.
besides, the bonus is barely adequate anyway. if it were 100km range and a base +50% chance of better salvager, then hell yeah, but my rigged noctis turns circles around my paladin.


Just saying that is has a big PVE stamp on it because of the tractor beam bonus. I fit smart bombs, and im sure you do as well.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2505 - 2013-09-05 12:53:27 UTC
THe stasis we b bonus as many pointed doe snto match the other bonus. Sound like a non thinked change.


Better woudl be a combined 5% web strenght AND 10% web Range bonus. At least would make SOME sense.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2506 - 2013-09-05 12:54:13 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Zendon Taredi wrote:
I dont care what you do as long as it remains the best PVE ship in the game. That's what we all trained for. We didnt train for a ship with a tractor beam bonus on it so that one day it could turn into a pvp ship. Get your **** together.


I'm more worried about the fact that so many people seem to only care about its level four mission performance, and not care about any other forms of PvE. The last round of changes is a vast improvement to its PvE ability in incursions, wormholes, lowsec, and nullsec, and everyone is crying because now it only knocks L4 mission difficulty down to "profoundly autistic" instead of going all the way to "syphilitic ******** monkey" levels of easy.

What? the most recent change was for the incursion whiners, the ships will still be loot piñatas in low sec (though more so now without the ability to uber tank) deep sov null they will be used the same as current, and many WH sites were doable with them before so there would have been only gain from the first iteration.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2507 - 2013-09-05 13:00:30 UTC
So a T2 resist Mega with fu-Falcon+superLAAR -mode and a bonused web? Hell yeah :D

.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#2508 - 2013-09-05 13:00:44 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


well, at least marauders are now great incursion ships. after reading the shitstorm opinions from PVPers, i tend to agree that some extra range and self rep is usually not worth locking yourself in place for 60 seconds, esecially on a 1bil hull. then again, there may be some situations where it might become useful and its usefulness in missions is beyond any doubt anyway.

if the changes go through the way they are now, i predict marauders to become a presence in blob warfare. they are not much more expensive than foxcats and their new resistance bonuses will make their EHP outshine any other subcap in the game.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2509 - 2013-09-05 13:05:50 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Zendon Taredi wrote:
I dont care what you do as long as it remains the best PVE ship in the game. That's what we all trained for. We didnt train for a ship with a tractor beam bonus on it so that one day it could turn into a pvp ship. Get your **** together.


I'm more worried about the fact that so many people seem to only care about its level four mission performance, and not care about any other forms of PvE. The last round of changes is a vast improvement to its PvE ability in incursions, wormholes, lowsec, and nullsec, and everyone is crying because now it only knocks L4 mission difficulty down to "profoundly autistic" instead of going all the way to "syphilitic ******** monkey" levels of easy.

What? the most recent change was for the incursion whiners, the ships will still be loot piñatas in low sec (though more so now without the ability to uber tank) deep sov null they will be used the same as current, and many WH sites were doable with them before so there would have been only gain from the first iteration.


Of course they were "doable," but these changes represent a vast increase in efficiency. Since using bastion for solo PvE in low/null/wspace is outright suicidal, the loss of resistances on it is meaningless here, since you couldn't really use it anyway. So we've basically traded a rep/boost bonus for a web bonus and T2 resists and that's definitely a buff.

Since you don't have to root yourself anymore, it's not significantly easier to gank than a strategic cruiser. You need to warp off before they get on grid and lock you, just like any other ship. The price is not a real issue when you consider it blows through anoms at twice the rate a Tengu does. I'd rather lose a 1.5bil Marauder than a 1bil Tengu and 210,000 skill points.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2510 - 2013-09-05 13:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Xequecal wrote:
I'm more worried about the fact that so many people seem to only care about its level four mission performance, and not care about any other forms of PvE. The last round of changes is a vast improvement to its PvE ability in incursions, wormholes, lowsec, and nullsec, and everyone is crying because now it only knocks L4 mission difficulty down to "profoundly autistic" instead of going all the way to "syphilitic ******** monkey" levels of easy.

The problem is, I feel that there's no reason to use this ships in wormholes or incursions because of how good ships that compete with them are in such environement. I'm pretty sure that the same can be said about L5s/null anoms/whatever. That's pretty much why we are mostly hearing mission folks when it comes to PvE.

Okay, you may be right about stuff like Kronos (that can do decent against serpentis due to how their damage and resistance profiles stack), but other stuff (like Paladin) becomes pretty useless.

Edit: Okay, the point above makes sense. Got ninja'd but discussion progression. There are still issues when it comes to effectiveness outside of "gank possibility" scope.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2511 - 2013-09-05 13:09:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink
Attention Golem with Target Painter, Web and MJD got 4 med slots for tank. If u put cap booster u will end with only 3 slots for tank (on ship who just lost shield boost bonus). There is no room for two different EW modules on slow shield tanked ship and this ship doesnt need any EW. He need proper bonuses for his missiles and invulnerability to defenders.
Guardian Phoenix
Violent Force Productions
#2512 - 2013-09-05 13:11:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Guardian Phoenix
Removing the base repair bonus from Marauders now forces them to have to use the bastion module to achieve anywhere near the tank as before. Example given my ship will go from ~2,400hp/cycle to ~1,745hp/cycle. That's huge. And the Paladin already has the same EM and Therm armor resists as other Carthum built t2 ships, so against sansha and blood raider, it is not going to get a resistance buff.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2513 - 2013-09-05 13:13:17 UTC
5th turret/launcher!!!!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2514 - 2013-09-05 13:14:01 UTC
Scrapping my skill plan and training for Kronos <3

.
stoicfaux
#2515 - 2013-09-05 13:15:49 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

    • -1 From a level 4 mission perspective, webs are too short ranged to be of value. Dropping the shield/armor boost bonus for a nearly useless web velocity bonus is just terrible. [insert threat to sell my Vargur here]

    You'd be better of with a web range bonus and maybe another mid slot so we can fit two webs. But even that is pretty meh.

    Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
    Daniel Plain
    Doomheim
    #2516 - 2013-09-05 13:17:19 UTC
    Barrogh Habalu wrote:
    Xequecal wrote:
    I'm more worried about the fact that so many people seem to only care about its level four mission performance, and not care about any other forms of PvE. The last round of changes is a vast improvement to its PvE ability in incursions, wormholes, lowsec, and nullsec, and everyone is crying because now it only knocks L4 mission difficulty down to "profoundly autistic" instead of going all the way to "syphilitic ******** monkey" levels of easy.

    The problem is, I feel that there's no reason to use this ships in wormholes or incursions because of how good ships that compete with them are in such environement. I'm pretty sure that the same can be said about L5s/null anoms/whatever. That's pretty much why we are mostly hearing mission folks when it comes to PvE.

    Okay, you may be right about stuff like Kronos (that can do decent against serpentis due to how their damage and resistance profiles stack), but other stuff (like Paladin) becomes pretty useless.

    Edit: Okay, the point above makes sense. Got ninja'd but discussion progression. There are still issues when it comes to effectiveness outside of "gank possibility" scope.

    if you do not see how being immune to neuts helps running wormhole PvE, you have probably never been to a C3/C4. also, ask a basilisk pilot what he thinks about T1 vs. T2 resistances in incursions.

    I should buy an Ishtar.
    Periapsis Retrograde Burn
    Hedion University
    Amarr Empire
    #2517 - 2013-09-05 13:18:02 UTC
    Daniel Plain wrote:

    if you do not see how being immune to neuts helps running wormhole PvE, you have probably never been to a C3/C4. also, ask a basilisk pilot what he thinks about T1 vs. T2 resistances in incursions.


    Where does it state that Marauders are immune to neuts?
    Cassius Invictus
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #2518 - 2013-09-05 13:19:28 UTC
    Daniel Plain wrote:
    Barrogh Habalu wrote:
    Xequecal wrote:
    I'm more worried about the fact that so many people seem to only care about its level four mission performance, and not care about any other forms of PvE. The last round of changes is a vast improvement to its PvE ability in incursions, wormholes, lowsec, and nullsec, and everyone is crying because now it only knocks L4 mission difficulty down to "profoundly autistic" instead of going all the way to "syphilitic ******** monkey" levels of easy.

    The problem is, I feel that there's no reason to use this ships in wormholes or incursions because of how good ships that compete with them are in such environement. I'm pretty sure that the same can be said about L5s/null anoms/whatever. That's pretty much why we are mostly hearing mission folks when it comes to PvE.

    Okay, you may be right about stuff like Kronos (that can do decent against serpentis due to how their damage and resistance profiles stack), but other stuff (like Paladin) becomes pretty useless.

    Edit: Okay, the point above makes sense. Got ninja'd but discussion progression. There are still issues when it comes to effectiveness outside of "gank possibility" scope.

    if you do not see how being immune to neuts helps running wormhole PvE, you have probably never been to a C3/C4. also, ask a basilisk pilot what he thinks about T1 vs. T2 resistances in incursions.


    I don't think EWAR immunity means you are immune to neuts. Sry Mate...
    Daniel Plain
    Doomheim
    #2519 - 2013-09-05 13:21:15 UTC
    are you sure about that? that would be... unfortunate.

    I should buy an Ishtar.
    stoicfaux
    #2520 - 2013-09-05 13:24:54 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
    Xqpvqsvs Qr'atyuqink wrote:
    Attention Golem with Target Painter, Web and MJD got 4 med slots for tank. If u put cap booster u will end with only 3 slots for tank (on ship who just lost shield boost bonus). There is no room for two different EW modules on slow shield tanked ship and this ship doesnt need any EW. He need proper bonuses for his missiles and invulnerability to defenders.

    You need two painters to be effective, so you're down to a three slot tank. Three slot tanks work currently (4 TPs + 3 slot tank) but you had to be careful. However, with the loss of the shield boost bonus, a cap booster will probably be essential, so you're down to a two slot tank.

    /fubar

    edit: to be fair, you'll never put a web on a Golem for Level 4s, so we're back to a 3-4 slot tank.

    Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.