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CCP, to Bring Balance, Nerf AC's (or Remove Blasters).

Author
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2011-11-13 23:07:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzzmong
Cambarus wrote:

Amarr are brawlers. They sit there and dish out damage, having better damage projection and better EHP than their matari counterparts.

Minmatar are skirmishers. They're relatively weak in an EHP/DPS race, but make up for it with their speed and utility.


Err.......

Roosterton wrote:

Armor AC 'Cane: 603 DPS, 70k EHP, dual neuts, has an optimal of only 1.4km. Slightly faster.
Armor pulse Harby: 620 DPS, 76k EHP, single neut, has an optimal of 7km, cap injected.



Just to point out, I don't see the "relatively weak EHP/DPS offset by speed and utility" difference when Roosterton's figures for the armour 'cane are put next to his armour Harb' figures, whereas the difference between Zealot/Vaga and Geddon/Pest were pretty obvious.

Of course, going by just those figures, you can argue either the 'cane is OP or the 'harb is underpowered.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#182 - 2011-11-13 23:14:18 UTC
Quote:


Roosterton wrote:

Armor AC 'Cane: 603 DPS, 70k EHP, dual neuts, has an optimal of only 1.4km. Slightly faster.
Armor pulse Harby: 620 DPS, 76k EHP, single neut, has an optimal of 7km, cap injected.



Just to point out, I don't see the "relatively weak EHP/DPS offset by speed and utility" difference when Roosterton's figures for the armour 'cane are put next to his armour Harb figures, whereas the difference between Zealot/Vaga and Geddon/Pest were pretty obvious.

Of course, going by just those figures, you can argue either the 'cane is OP or the 'harb is underpowered.


To clarify, the Harb and 'Cane are somewhat oddballs in the whole thing when armor tanked, as they have identical slot layouts. The 'Cane's speed advantage is quite small when they're both plated and armor rigged, and the only thing that really makes it more versatile is two neuts instead of one, and switchable damage types - (And the second neut is a small one, at that.) which I'd argue is offset by the Harby's cap booster, greater optimal, and larger drone bay.

Of course, the story flips completely if the hurricane is shield fitted...
Cambarus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2011-11-13 23:37:54 UTC
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
There is no way around this, and the tradeoffs for this utility are nothing to scoff at.


Neither is the utility itself something to scoff at. I'm not taking a side, just pointing out that down-playing minmatar's strengths whilst plugging bogusly high numbers in for amarr ships is misleading. There's no question minmatar has more roles to fill and that they're ships and weapons are more popular because of it. There's also no question amarr ships have more ehp and have a longer optimal range and thus make better fleet brawlers. It doesn't mean amarr is underpowered or minmatar is overpowered. It doesn't mean there's never a time when one ship is better than another. I just think it's a bit rich to gloss over the differences with two sentences and go "see, it's perfectly balanced."

The thing is, there are 2 major sides in the argument as it stands, and those are those for and those against an AC nerf. By arguing solely against one side, you will unavoidably be placed on the other.

If you think amarr are somehow the underdogs here, then come out and say it.
If you think that amarr and minmatar are balanced well with each other, stop downplaying the advantages of flying amarr, because that makes you sound like you think they aren't.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#184 - 2011-11-14 01:02:35 UTC
Tara Read wrote:
I'll just leave these here.... Poor Mach pilot's TwistedTwistedTwisted Yep. Gallente suck alright.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14586578

47% damage done.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14586171

30%


Good greece, you need a lot of friends to take down a single Mach when one on one he would just eat you alive, that's what you seem not able to understand.

Has for the second km I'd be rather embarrassed to figure an Harbringer can do same dps than my Megathron, nice stuff.

I see now what you just did !! -Can't wait for next month top 20 to see all those brutix, myrmidon, dominix, megathrons, hyperions, deimost (Mr sry).

Ho god, I can't wait! -My toon's feminine parts are already excited Roll
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#185 - 2011-11-14 01:05:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis
Cambarus wrote:

The thing is, there are 2 major sides in the argument as it stands, and those are those for and those against an AC nerf. By arguing solely against one side, you will unavoidably be placed on the other.

If you think amarr are somehow the underdogs here, then come out and say it.
If you think that amarr and minmatar are balanced well with each other, stop downplaying the advantages of flying amarr, because that makes you sound like you think they aren't.


I'm sure that it helps people rationalize posts to typecast someone into one of two polar groups, but that isn't realistic. You and I are both free to critique posts and comment as an objective player. Of course, there's no telling who is truely objective, but that can be said of anyone, even if they declare they have a vested interest in one or the other.

I think I was perfectly clear when I said that amarr were not underdogs.
I think I was perfectly clear when I said that downplaying -either- advantage was fallacious.

My gripe was that the comparisons being made were obviously skewed and the numbrs didn't match up in eft. I could have simply chocked it up to another vehemently pro-minmatar pilot exaggerating things, but It tickled me enough to respond instead. If that got me branded as pro-amarr then so be it. I'm by no means in support of making the fleet-dominant amarr even better or even comparatively better than at present.
Tara Read
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#186 - 2011-11-14 02:14:37 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Tara Read wrote:
I'll just leave these here.... Poor Mach pilot's TwistedTwistedTwisted Yep. Gallente suck alright.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14586578

47% damage done.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14586171

30%


Good greece, you need a lot of friends to take down a single Mach when one on one he would just eat you alive, that's what you seem not able to understand.

Has for the second km I'd be rather embarrassed to figure an Harbringer can do same dps than my Megathron, nice stuff.

I see now what you just did !! -Can't wait for next month top 20 to see all those brutix, myrmidon, dominix, megathrons, hyperions, deimost (Mr sry).

Ho god, I can't wait! -My toon's feminine parts are already excited Roll


Aww aren't you cute. More like a moron but hey go ahead and fly that mach. And also It was a FLEET fight. Jesus. Many people were jammed. I suggest you head out to syndicate. Id love to see you in person. What a cry baby *****. People see their winmatar get smacked around and they cry and cry. Personally I don't care about the blaster changes that much. Ill fly gallente regardless. But hey maybe I m just stubborn.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#187 - 2011-11-14 03:05:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Quote:
My gripe was that the comparisons being made were obviously skewed and the numbrs didn't match up in eft.


You seem to love repeatedly spouting off this line. Pray tell, what about my numbers in EFT "didn't match up?"
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#188 - 2011-11-14 03:34:16 UTC
Stop complaining and start training/learning and go fly Winmatar if they are so uber.
DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
#189 - 2011-11-14 04:40:24 UTC
Roosterton wrote:

Armor AC 'Cane: 603 DPS, 70k EHP, dual neuts, has an optimal of only 1.4km. Slightly faster.
Armor pulse Harby: 620 DPS, 76k EHP, single neut, has an optimal of 7km, cap injected.

I bolded something for you.
Congratulations. You have just proven your complete and utter bias.
Do you feel embarrassed? You should.

Also, how the hell did you get those DPS numbers? 620dps on a Harby either comes from Imperial Multi on Heavy Pulses, thus an 800mm plate (and 62k ehp) or overheated Focused Medium Pulses. Even then it's 612dps. Unheated, you get 542dps Lol
Also, your Hurricane fit is terrible. Use 425mms, because there's so much powergrid to spare, and get 629dps. If you're going to overheat the Harby, then at least overheat the Cane as well. Uh oh. 712dps. That doesn't support you case too well, does it?


You may as well compare the optimal AND falloff if you're not being a biased derp:
Multi/Fusion: http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3253/multifusion.png
Scorch/Barrage: http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/8968/scorchbarrage.png

So, it appears the Harby does more damage over 13km.
Oh dear, the Harby is 129m/s slower than the Cane.
Oh dear, the Harby only has 3.8k more ehp.
Oh dear, your Harby's neut is small, while the Cane has both a small and a medium.
Oh dear, at close range the Cane has 87 more dps, and 100 more while heated.
Oh dear, this isn't looking so good for you any more.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#190 - 2011-11-14 04:47:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis
Roosterton wrote:
Pray tell, what about my numbers in EFT "didn't match up?"


Well, for starters:

Roosterton wrote:
Armageddon: 1200 base DPS, can apply it fully to 30+km


To get a 30km+ optimal, you'd be using scorch (or IN-Std, lol) and your dps (including heavies) would a little under 1000 w/o implants (and only 1100 with heat, in case you want to call o/h "base dps"). 1200 dps implies conflag wich would mean about half that optimal range. Even with falloff, you wouldn't get 30km using conflag.

I'd go on to the BC comparison, but it appears Dark beat me to it. Kudoz.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#191 - 2011-11-14 05:42:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
DarkAegix wrote:
Roosterton wrote:

Armor AC 'Cane: 603 DPS, 70k EHP, dual neuts, has an optimal of only 1.4km. Slightly faster.
Armor pulse Harby: 620 DPS, 76k EHP, single neut, has an optimal of 7km, cap injected.

I bolded something for you.
Congratulations. You have just proven your complete and utter bias.
Do you feel embarrassed? You should.

Also, how the hell did you get those DPS numbers? 620dps on a Harby either comes from Imperial Multi on Heavy Pulses, thus an 800mm plate (and 62k ehp) or overheated Focused Medium Pulses. Even then it's 612dps. Unheated, you get 542dps Lol
Also, your Hurricane fit is terrible. Use 425mms, because there's so much powergrid to spare, and get 629dps. If you're going to overheat the Harby, then at least overheat the Cane as well. Uh oh. 712dps. That doesn't support you case too well, does it?


You may as well compare the optimal AND falloff if you're not being a biased derp:
Multi/Fusion: http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3253/multifusion.png
Scorch/Barrage: http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/8968/scorchbarrage.png

So, it appears the Harby does more damage over 13km.
Oh dear, the Harby is 129m/s slower than the Cane.
Oh dear, the Harby only has 3.8k more ehp.
Oh dear, your Harby's neut is small, while the Cane has both a small and a medium.
Oh dear, at close range the Cane has 87 more dps, and 100 more while heated.
Oh dear, this isn't looking so good for you any more.


What? Huh?

There's so much wrongness with this post that I don't know where to start.

First off, the Harby with focused medium pulses can easily pull 620 DPS with IN multifrequency, without heat. That same Harby has the powergrid to fit a medium neut. I have no idea where you are getting your figures from, but here, lemme give you a screenshot:

Proof that you are terrible.

Second, an armor Hurricane cannot fit 425's unless you have AWU 5 and drop a medium neut for a small. Additionally, this fit doesn't have the powergrid to field a cap booster, whereas a Harb can fit a cap booster, seven guns, and a medium neut with no issue. Additionally, this 425 fit has 629 DPS. A whole nine more than the Harby. Hmm, 9 more DPS on a Hurricane, or 6k more EHP, bigger optimal, and more resistance to cap warfare on a Harby... Let me think... Roll

Honestly, go back to EFT before you pull a bunch of numbers out of your ass.

Quote:
To get a 30km+ optimal, you'd be using scorch (or IN-Std, lol) and your dps (including heavies) would a little under 900 w/o implants (and only 1100 with heat, in case you want to call o/h "base dps"). 1200 dps implies conflag wich would mean about half that optimal range. Even with falloff, you wouldn't get 30km using conflag.


1172 DPS is attainable with IN MF, without heat. I said 1200 in my first post because I didn't have the numbers off the top of my head. 28 dps is worth nitpicking over, c/d?

But yes, you're somewhat right about Scorch, although instant ammo switch means you're going to have a much easier time quickly applying that DPS than the respective Tempest. Additionally, dps w/scorch is 1000, not 900, which is a lot better than what the armor Tempest deals at that range.

Anything else?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#192 - 2011-11-14 05:47:34 UTC
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
There is no way around this, and the tradeoffs for this utility are nothing to scoff at.


Neither is the utility itself something to scoff at. I'm not taking a side, just pointing out that down-playing minmatar's strengths whilst plugging bogusly high numbers in for amarr ships is misleading. There's no question minmatar has more roles to fill and that they're ships and weapons are more popular because of it. There's also no question amarr ships have more ehp and have a longer optimal range and thus make better fleet brawlers. It doesn't mean amarr is underpowered or minmatar is overpowered. It doesn't mean there's never a time when one ship is better than another. I just think it's a bit rich to gloss over the differences with two sentences and go "see, it's perfectly balanced."


Bullshit. You absolutely are taking a side. Also, laser ships and projectile ships are reasonably balanced. The only time people really have merit to get out and complain is with Hybrids - which are incidentally getting boosted.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#193 - 2011-11-14 05:47:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis
Roosterton wrote:

1172 DPS is attainable with IN MF. I said 1200 in my first post because I didn't have the numbers off the top of my head.


You said "base dps," which is a far-cry from "attainable," sir. I think you, on that high horse, should be able to see where i'm coming from then? Your language was deliberately misleading or simply off by an unacceptable margin that called for critique.


Liang Nuren wrote:


Bullshit. You absolutely are taking a side. Also, laser ships and projectile ships are reasonably balanced. The only time people really have merit to get out and complain is with Hybrids - which are incidentally getting boosted.

-Liang


I see you've given up on the whole "constructive posting," thing these days. How's that working out for you?

You should probably take that angst over to the test forum and put it to good use in the hybrid thread.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#194 - 2011-11-14 05:54:49 UTC
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
I see you've given up on the whole "constructive posting," thing these days. How's that working out for you?


Calling bullshit on someone that's blatantly lying about not taking a side isn't being non-constructive.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#195 - 2011-11-14 05:55:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis
Liang Nuren wrote:

Calling bullshit on someone that's blatantly lying about not taking a side isn't being non-constructive.


I'm flattered.

Does this mean you read all my posts?

Ohh I have a fan! Big smile
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#196 - 2011-11-14 06:01:46 UTC
725 (with drones) damage per second. Flew this solo and have not lost it. Funny, enough I've lost 4 shield Harbingers though. Also, I don't include drone damage when I reference a set-up. Mainly, because they often get exploded...

I also flew a solo Armageddon for awhile. Lost 7 of those... Never did 1200dps though, but I'm pretty sure it can.


[Harbinger, EFT YEY!]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Damage Control II
Coreli C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5


-proxyyyy
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#197 - 2011-11-14 06:08:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Quote:
You said "base dps," which is a far-cry from "attainable," sir. I think you, on that high horse, should be able to see where i'm coming from then? Your language was deliberately misleading or simply off by an unacceptable margin that called for critique.


What the hell? So three heat sinks and imperial navy multi is not considered "base dps?" What, am I supposed to be using no damage mods, standard L, and all skills set to 0? Roll

I'm sure you knew exactly what I mean, and am just nitpicking my use of the word "attainable" because you know you're wrong. Just stop trying.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#198 - 2011-11-14 06:12:54 UTC
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Calling bullshit on someone that's blatantly lying about not taking a side isn't being non-constructive.


I'm flattered.

Does this mean you read all my posts?

Ohh I have a fan! Big smile


You don't have to read very many posts where you directly suggest nerfing Minmatar to know that you've chosen a "side". The funny thing is that the position of "wait and see how the Hybrid boost pans out" would be the best position for someone not taking a side.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#199 - 2011-11-14 06:15:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis
Roosterton wrote:

What the hell? So three heat sinks and imperial navy multi is not considered "base dps?" What, am I supposed to be using no damage mods, standard L, and all skills set to 0? Roll


You took overheated numbers and added 100dps (i've been looking at your fit with scorch, all skills V) and called it "base dps." If that doesn't qualify as misleading, I dunno what is.

Roosterton wrote:

I'm sure you knew exactly what I mean, and am just nitpicking my use of the word "attainable" because you know you're wrong. Just stop trying.


Yeah, I know exactly what you meant to do and I called you on it. Just stop making it worse.

Liang Nuren wrote:
The funny thing is that the position of "wait and see how the Hybrid boost pans out" would be the best position for someone not taking a side.

-Liang


But then I would have nothing "constructive" to post here, such as busting Roosterton's balls.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#200 - 2011-11-14 06:29:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Roosterton wrote:

What the hell? So three heat sinks and imperial navy multi is not considered "base dps?" What, am I supposed to be using no damage mods, standard L, and all skills set to 0? Roll


You took overheated numbers and added 100dps (i've been looking at your fit with scorch, all skills V) and called it "base dps." If that doesn't qualify as misleading, I dunno what is.


Bro...
Roosterton wrote:

1172 DPS is attainable with IN MF.

Roosterton wrote:
WITH IN MF.


I already pointed out that I made a mistake, and that Scorch is only 1000 DPS rather than 1172, but rather than calling me out on that, you decided to wrongly call me out on something which I made extremely clear - that the ammo being used is IN MF - proving that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:

Yeah, I know exactly what you meant to do and I called you on it. Just stop making it worse.


Called me out on... what? Stating a fact? Okay then...