These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1501 - 2013-09-02 16:29:24 UTC
I've removed some off topic posts and posts with personal attacks. Please keep it on topic and civil. Thank you.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Cade Windstalker
#1502 - 2013-09-02 16:45:43 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

A rather massive spike in the price of the Kronos says people are really excited about this. Granted this is the Eve markets and they may be betting against what they think the idea will turn into but this at least shows a fair amount of interest in the concept.

Also that special snowflake situation would be most level 4 missions and probably a good number of low and null scan sites.


The spike in Kronos prices are almost entirely the work of 2 people who are manipulating the market on the speculation and from all accounts already made a tidy amount from it.


I would be somewhat interested in seeing a source for this. While it's not a large market it's a rather expensive one and the timing coincides almost exactly with the start of this thread.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1503 - 2013-09-02 16:56:51 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:
I don't think i have ever used the stasis bonus on the paladin, frigs hardly ever get that close so the optimal range bonus makes more sense. as for the kronos, i prefer the fall-off bonus but the web bonus is still useful.
Not having the web bonus is a major kick in the teeth, because that translates to a 400% increase in target velocity. If they want to give the Kronos a 400% bonus to blaster tracking to compensate I'm down with that, but I very much doubt it would happen....

Also there is a ridiculous assertion in this thread that the 90% web bonus was overpowered:

Large blasters are an oddity - sub 10km optimal on a very slow platform, fundamentally only really works if you can pin down any targets straying in range to near stationary. Overpowered? not really, because you simply kite said slow, lumbering platform outside of 13km. I should also point out, from the perspective of someone who extensively flew blasterthrons back in the day of 90% webs (2004-2008), that it was still perfectly viable back then to get in under the guns in frigate sized platforms (heck if you got close enough in a cruiser you could still mess up tracking sufficiently), the only recourse the blasterthron pilot had was to 'tickle' the MWD to attempt to pull a little bit of range.

In the days of MWD-killing scrams, boosted afterburners, and tracking disrupters bolted into spare mid slots, 90% webs on a lumbering vulnerable Battleship platform are in no way overpowered.

P.s back in the day the Kronos had 99% webs....


This was also back before a ton of changes to speed and speed stacking. These days if you try to get under the guns on a 90% web bonused ship you end up as an expanding cloud of plasma.

Also if you actually take a look at the stats on most Gallente ships they've all gotten increased speed and maneuverability to better be able to apply Blaster damage. This went along with the Hybrid Weapons changes back in ~2010 and has only been reinforced by the ship re-balancing.
But then that is factually incorrect, though expected as you are a post-speed changes player (no offense).

Prior to the 2008 changes you could easily get close to 1200 m/sec in a blasterthron, while the same fit (# of plates and trimarks) will just barely reach 1000 m/sec with the latest changes.

Add to that back then you could still pull range using the MWD (scramblers did not kill MWD's back then), and that afterburners were hopeless (tiny speed bonus), then no, 90% webs on a lumbering, large turret platform today are in no way overpowered and removing them is not justified.

In terms of your 'cloud of plasma' statement - either kite it out of range (easy as it is a slow lumbering platform), or fit appropriately to increase your chances (afterburner + tracking disruption). To put a specific number on it: the 50% hit chance on a 40m frigate at 5km from an Ion II blaster fit Megathron occurs at 41.5 m/sec. An AB fit frigate can go twice that fast under a 90% web. An AB frigate with a tracking disrupter has it even easier.

90% webs have always been a crucial element to large blaster platforms, which by definition are a solo or at best, very small gang platform. It's a real shame the dev's from 2008 to now don't seem to 'get it' as I’m pretty sure the 'old school crowd’, the likes of TomB et al, did perfectly understand it....



War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1504 - 2013-09-02 17:04:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Cade Windstalker wrote:

I would be somewhat interested in seeing a source for this. While it's not a large market it's a rather expensive one and the timing coincides almost exactly with the start of this thread.


Not sure if they'd want me banding their names about but one posts on here quite a bit so might confirm - talking people who bid 10s of bn on AT prize ships, etc. so they aren't short of ISK by a long shot.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1505 - 2013-09-02 17:08:14 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

A rather massive spike in the price of the Kronos says people are really excited about this. Granted this is the Eve markets and they may be betting against what they think the idea will turn into but this at least shows a fair amount of interest in the concept.

Also that special snowflake situation would be most level 4 missions and probably a good number of low and null scan sites.


The spike in Kronos prices are almost entirely the work of 2 people who are manipulating the market on the speculation and from all accounts already made a tidy amount from it.


I would be somewhat interested in seeing a source for this. While it's not a large market it's a rather expensive one and the timing coincides almost exactly with the start of this thread.
I gave it some consideration only a month or two ago, but decided that actually, looking at the current state or Marauders and where they could likely go with re-balancing, probably wasn't worth it.

Good luck to the individuals trying to turn some isk on it though.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
George Fox
Society of Conscientious Thought
#1506 - 2013-09-02 17:11:38 UTC
Asayanami Dei wrote:
Change the tractor beam bonus for something more useful, this is the noctis era after all.

I agree.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1507 - 2013-09-02 17:14:20 UTC
George Fox wrote:
Asayanami Dei wrote:
Change the tractor beam bonus for something more useful, this is the noctis era after all.

I agree.

The tractor bonus is useful for solo PVE pilots who have paid for a ship that maximises PVE income, including salvage.

It is very useful for these guys, who are the target consumers of this ship.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Nano Quantum
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1508 - 2013-09-02 17:28:00 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
George Fox wrote:
Asayanami Dei wrote:
Change the tractor beam bonus for something more useful, this is the noctis era after all.

I agree.

The tractor bonus is useful for solo PVE pilots who have paid for a ship that maximises PVE income, including salvage.

It is very useful for these guys, who are the target consumers of this ship.

If anything CCP needs to increase the tractor bonuses given that the ship are being given a PVE nerf by the base speed being reduced. A PVE pilot would need to slow boat longer to get in range of wrecks to tractor them in.
Shantetha
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1509 - 2013-09-02 17:46:57 UTC
As a paladin pilot(on another char), conceptually i like the idea. However since this is suppose to be a "Dread-lite" or "Dread with training wheels", why not actually do that instead of giving the full remote lockout like siege.
Rather then Bastion completely blocking remote reps give it a reduction. Go ahead and block out remote EW/capchains/tracking but leave some ability to be remote rep'd.

so the Bastion module would look like this.

BASTION MODULE


  • Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized)
  • Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%
  • Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%
  • Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
  • Has a cycle time of 60 seconds.
  • When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW cannot receive any remote EW/Tracking assist in any way
  • Remote Reps received [shield, armor, hull] are reduced by 60%(number is adjustable i just picked 60% cause it was more then 50% :P ) (remote reps wouldn't receive the repair increase from above obviously)
  • When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping. Weapon time should not require the user to drop weapon safeties in high-sec (being investigated)
  • Only one may be fitted per Marauder, cannot be deactivated before cycle ends
  • Uses 10 CPU and 100 powergrid to fit
  • Uses no specific fuel or capacitor - we were discussing the use of Heavy Water as fuel. However, it doesn't really provide any gameplay (as CCP Rise mentioned, capacitor is the main limiting factor in combat with those ships). Plus it adds more consumables to a class that already commonly uses charges for weapons, cap boosters and need to keep cargo for possible salvaging.
  • Skill requirements: High Energy Physics 4 and Energy Grid Upgrades 5


This would make it so you could theoretically fit it as local reps only or you could fit it as mega buffer tank and hope the reduced remote reps are enough to hold you and keep you from burning, or being blapped. Plus this would effectively end the complaints from incursioners as they could still remote rep the the things while using the new ability without mjd around the incursion site.

Another thing I am disappointed about with the paladin was the drone bay/bandwith getting the baseball bat to the face, seriously that cut is excessive and even napkining it out knowing how terrible the lock time on my paladin already is I can't seen this as an applied dps buff in the slightest over all. Leave the drone bays where they were at give us the choice on what to carry rather then just locking us to 1 flight of lights, and 1 flight of salvaging drones.

Increase the sensor strength to at least the t1 level. 12 points is pathetic when the t1 has 20. Even the BLOPs is only 3 less then it's T1 counter part. Most of the t2 ships have 1-3 points less or more then their T1 hull, with cruiser and below being more likely to have higher sensor str.

Personally i am not so much unhappy with the removal of 90% webs, it would be nice to have range boosted webs instead but for the Siege-lite mechanic/mjd capability i can tolerate the lack of 90% webs.

And finally the 100% tractor bonus lets keep tractoring for flavor but make it the bonus the same as a noctis 60% per level. (could be even amazing and add-in a bonus bonus to salvage drone use if you really felt generious)

I'm definitely not comfortable using the current paladin in pvp, and the version proposed by the changed in the OP i wouldn't fly either but a version that was a little more forgiving i could see flying once in a blue moon in pvp with the right people.

Frankly you taking a clearly pve boat and trying to turn it into a pvp boat while still trying to leave some pve ability for the people who use it that way.. This doesn't fit with the clearly defined role iteration
Cade Windstalker
#1510 - 2013-09-02 17:51:31 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Not sure if they'd want me banding their names about but one posts on here quite a bit so might confirm - talking people who bid 10s of bn on AT prize ships, etc. so they aren't short of ISK by a long shot.


I'm certainly not claiming it's not happening, in fact it would be rather hard for the price of anything to spike like that without some market manipulation going on, I was just curious if you had a source for it.

Regardless though I somewhat doubt your friends would be making significant profits without the buzz over these changes.

Gabriel Karade wrote:
But then that is factually incorrect, though expected as you are a post-speed changes player (no offense).

Prior to the 2008 changes you could easily get close to 1200 m/sec in a blasterthron, while the same fit (# of plates and trimarks) will just barely reach 1000 m/sec with the latest changes.

Add to that back then you could still pull range using the MWD (scramblers did not kill MWD's back then), and that afterburners were hopeless (tiny speed bonus), then no, 90% webs on a lumbering, large turret platform today are in no way overpowered and removing them is not justified.

In terms of your 'cloud of plasma' statement - either kite it out of range (easy as it is a slow lumbering platform), or fit appropriately to increase your chances (afterburner + tracking disruption). To put a specific number on it: the 50% hit chance on a 40m frigate at 5km from an Ion II blaster fit Megathron occurs at 41.5 m/sec. An AB fit frigate can go twice that fast under a 90% web. An AB frigate with a tracking disrupter has it even easier.

90% webs have always been a crucial element to large blaster platforms, which by definition are a solo or at best, very small gang platform. It's a real shame the dev's from 2008 to now don't seem to 'get it' as I’m pretty sure the 'old school crowd’, the likes of TomB et al, did perfectly understand it....


Your argument here seems a touch disjointed.

For a start a Megathron may have been able to go faster back then, most things could and I'd be rather surprised if 1200m/s was the upper limit of speed on even an armor tanked mega with the right combo of effects. However comparing the post-nerf Megathron right now to other battleships it performs quite well.

A quick comparison of the Megathron hulls to Raven, Apocalypse, and Tempest hulls shows the Megathron based hulls with the lowest inertia modifier of any of them, beating out all three of the Minmattar ships. In velocity the Megahthron Navy Issue ties with the Tempest Fleet Issue and Vargur at 130m/s, followed by the Tempest at 127 m/s, then the Vindicator at 126, the Navy Raven at 123 and the Megathron at 122.

This is a very powerful combination of speed and agility and puts blaster boats in a very good position compared to where they were before these changes and, I would argue, even before the pre-nano nerf days.

Now, the bit where I kind of completely lose you is where you assert that it actually used to be *harder* to hold someone with webs back when you couldn't turn off their MWD and you sort of lose me when you say this justifies 90% webs when it is functionally impossible to escape them since the person webbing you can turn off your MWD or web you down to the point where you can't feasibly get away from them with an Afterburner with only a single module and a short-point.

If anything this would make them even stronger now than they used to be and this is born out by the popularity of hulls with these bonuses over comparable hulls without even when those other hulls have significant advantages and lack the drawbacks of the hull with the web bonus.

Throw the mechanics of "Dread-blapping" into the mix and you have a very solid case for removing these bonuses and replacing them with something else.

You make a decent argument with your frigate example, however this can be countered by two points. One, with a Federation Navy web the frigate can be grabbed on approach out at 14 km, which means it will be going ~100m/s by the time it hits 10km. Two, any of these ships can easily fit a second web which means that, for example in the case of a Vindicator with Neutron Blasters loaded with Void (horrible tracking) the Vindi is still able to apply a solid 1000 DPS aat 3000 meters without factoring in drones or that the Vindicator, even without a propulsion module, is now faster than the frigate with only one web on it. At two webs you're basically shooting at a small cargo container with guns on it.

As for your completely erroneous statement about 90% webs and Large Blasters, only two blaster ships have been able to fit them for the last 5 years. One is the undisputed DPS king of sub-caps and the other is a ship that, according to its other stats, should have zero PvP relevance at all and probably wouldn't if it didn't also have a 90% web bonus.

Plus both of these ships can still fit two webs without their bonus and get roughly the same effect as a single 90% web but for a more reasonable trade-off and without the hilariously broken situation of 2 90% webs on the same ship.

Don't get me wrong, I love when 90% webs are on my side, but I really fail to see a justification for their continued existence in the game when they are so ridiculously powerful.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#1511 - 2013-09-02 18:05:54 UTC
It sure is fine to have OP Stats like the 90% web bonus, but thats the Past and now is now.

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1512 - 2013-09-02 18:07:38 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
Alright, ran some more tests on our internal servers with suggested changes.

Feedback suggested I ran Buzzkill or Worlds Collide without the web bonus on the Kronos to see how well the ship fared. Challenge accepted. Needless to say it was a slaughter. For the NPCs that is P


KRONOMNOMNOS:

High:
4x Neutron Blaster Cannon II
1x Salvager II
2x Small Tractor Beams II
1x Bastion transformerthingie™ Module

Med:
1x Large Micro Jump Drive
1x 100mn Microwarpdrive II
1x Heavy Capacitor Booster II (5x Cap Booster 800)
1x Tracking Computer II (Optimal range or Tracking speed scripts)

Low:
1x Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
2x Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
3x Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
1x Tracking Enhancer II

Rigs:
1x Large Hybrid Ambit Extension I
1x Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I

Drones: 5x Warrior II - you don't need them anyway. Might as well be Peanut Butter II drones for that matter.


With the Tracking Computer II running with range script, I get 1220 DPS with turrets alone at 6.7km Range + 41.2km Falloff on Federation Navy Antimatter, or 973 DPS at 18.82km + 57.6km with Null Shocked Yes, yes, that's theoretical falloff damage, but I think that's good enough to compete with Pirate Battleships. You also have MWD + MJD combo to get in range of anything.

I typically use rails on my mission Kronos on TQ (I've got all 4 Marauders on one of my characters), but with this kind of projection I'll switch to blasters. Oh yes, my precious. So fresh, so shiny, oh yes precious blaster cannons, tastes like a delicious croissant. And the above setup can be pimped more. It's something I've put in 5mins, pretty sure it's not optimized and you'll find holes in it. Who cares, you get the idea.


How to wreck things in missions?

Warp in, activate Bastion, use extra projection with Null to smash frigate NPCs while they are closing in (I usually have transversal or radial velocity as overview column to know which ones I should shoot first). Once they're orbiting and you can't hit them anymore, smash cruisers and higher NPCs with Null or Navy Antimatter depending on range. Optional: use drones to kill frigates while dealing with bigger NPCs. Shooting frigates with blasters is a waste when you can let drones do it while you waste other targets.

If all that's left are frigates orbiting you and don't want drones to be shot, wait for Bastion mode to run out (best to anticipate one cycle in advance so you don't have to wait), activate MJD. At 100km away, activate Bastion again, wait for them to come in and smash them to pieces. Sure, you aren't going to do full damage in falloff, but even at 60-70km, all it takes is a single good hit on 4 grouped blasters to wreck them.

Having some battleship NPCs sitting at long range? (quite rare) At more than 50km, use MJD, turn around, then MWD. Less than 50km, just MWD. Funniest moment was the Serpentis / Guristas 120km spawn in Worlds Collide level 4 first room. Jumped straight into the Guristas spawn, then activated Bastion: laughed as they helplessly tried to jam my Kronos while I smashed them to bit at close range. Pay back time for the 1346321 times I got helplessly jammed. That was just my own experience here, your mileage may vary, of course.


Other examples in Bastion (main weapon damage only, no drones here with tech2 weapons, faction WU mods similar on the Kronos setup above). Numbers may be off depending on setup / typos, I'll leave you guys to correct me.


  • Paladin with Megapulses and Scorch: 817 DPS at 92km range +21km Falloff. Or 1025 DPS at 31km range +21km falloff with Imperial Navy Multifreq.
  • Paladin with Tachyons and Navy Multifreq: 969 DPS at 67km range + 52 Falloff.
  • Golem with Fury Cruises: 946 DPS at 208km range (with rigs, they have 361m explosion radius, 125m/s explosion velocity and 13km/s velocity) Or 776 DPS with Navy Cruises.
  • Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)
  • Vargur with 800mm autocannons II with Republic Fleet EMP: 955 DPS at 4km range + 68.8km falloff
  • Vargur with 1400mm artilleries, with Republic Fleet EMP: 720DPS at 43km range+134km falloff


    • Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable Evil), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE.


    So while there are still concerns for PvP, I don't think you realize how efficient those things are for PvE. We feel like Dr. Frankenstein looking at a slab with a half-decaying corpses coming back to life. We've created monsters. Mission / PvE efficiency is not all about pure damage. It's also about mobility, projection and time you spend shooting. MJD + MWD helps with the first, Bastion plus new Kronos / Paladin bonuses give the second and EW immunity grants you the last.

    As such we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode - if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE.


Hope this wall of text helps a bit (PvE side, as I said, we aren't talking about PvP in this post).


Also, here is a preview of the transformation mode on the Kronos.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1513 - 2013-09-02 18:13:31 UTC
WOW! Those numbers are ridiculous Ytterbium. I can't wait!!

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#1514 - 2013-09-02 18:19:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
While the blue post is appreciated.... i cant be the only one disappointing in those vargur numbers comparing even to a current vargur, or to a pirate bs.....

Maybe its just me, but it shouldn't just "compare" to a pirate bs if it costs the same but take more skills

And ok so it can tank the first wave of a VG but with no benefit due to lost dps, so its just 'comparable' for doing L4s. Exciting.






"we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"

well i think i'm done here.



i guess i'll play with one for like 20 minutes though, i guess.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#1515 - 2013-09-02 18:23:14 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alright, ran some more tests on our internal servers with suggested changes.

Feedback suggested I ran Buzzkill or Worlds Collide without the web bonus on the Kronos to see how well the ship fared. Challenge accepted. Needless to say it was a slaughter. For the NPCs that is P


KRONOMNOMNOS:

High:
4x Neutron Blaster Cannon II
1x Salvager II
2x Small Tractor Beams II
1x Bastion transformerthingie™ Module

Med:
1x Large Micro Jump Drive
1x 100mn Microwarpdrive II
1x Heavy Capacitor Booster II (5x Cap Booster 800)
1x Tracking Computer II (Optimal range or Tracking speed scripts)

Low:
1x Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
2x Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
3x Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
1x Tracking Enhancer II

Rigs:
1x Large Hybrid Ambit Extension I
1x Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I

Drones: 5x Warrior II - you don't need them anyway. Might as well be Peanut Butter II drones for that matter.


With the Tracking Computer II running with range script, I get 1220 DPS with turrets alone at 6.7km Range + 41.2km Falloff on Federation Navy Antimatter, or 973 DPS at 18.82km + 57.6km with Null Shocked Yes, yes, that's theoretical falloff damage, but I think that's good enough to compete with Pirate Battleships. You also have MWD + MJD combo to get in range of anything.

I typically use rails on my mission Kronos on TQ (I've got all 4 Marauders on one of my characters), but with this kind of projection I'll switch to blasters. Oh yes, my precious. So fresh, so shiny, oh yes precious blaster cannons, tastes like a delicious croissant. And the above setup can be pimped more. It's something I've put in 5mins, pretty sure it's not optimized and you'll find holes in it. Who cares, you get the idea.


How to wreck things in missions?

Warp in, activate Bastion, use extra projection with Null to smash frigate NPCs while they are closing in (I usually have transversal or radial velocity as overview column to know which ones I should shoot first). Once they're orbiting and you can't hit them anymore, smash cruisers and higher NPCs with Null or Navy Antimatter depending on range. Optional: use drones to kill frigates while dealing with bigger NPCs. Shooting frigates with blasters is a waste when you can let drones do it while you waste other targets.

If all that's left are frigates orbiting you and don't want drones to be shot, wait for Bastion mode to run out (best to anticipate one cycle in advance so you don't have to wait), activate MJD. At 100km away, activate Bastion again, wait for them to come in and smash them to pieces. Sure, you aren't going to do full damage in falloff, but even at 60-70km, all it takes is a single good hit on 4 grouped blasters to wreck them.

Having some battleship NPCs sitting at long range? (quite rare) At more than 50km, use MJD, turn around, then MWD. Less than 50km, just MWD. Funniest moment was the Serpentis / Guristas 120km spawn in Worlds Collide level 4 first room. Jumped straight into the Guristas spawn, then activated Bastion: laughed as they helplessly tried to jam my Kronos while I smashed them to bit at close range. Pay back time for the 1346321 times I got helplessly jammed. That was just my own experience here, your mileage may vary, of course.


Other examples in Bastion (main weapon damage only, no drones here with tech2 weapons, faction WU mods similar on the Kronos setup above). Numbers may be off depending on setup / typos, I'll leave you guys to correct me.


  • Paladin with Megapulses and Scorch: 817 DPS at 92km range +21km Falloff. Or 1025 DPS at 31km range +21km falloff with Imperial Navy Multifreq.
  • Paladin with Tachyons and Navy Multifreq: 969 DPS at 67km range + 52 Falloff.
  • Golem with Fury Cruises: 946 DPS at 208km range (with rigs, they have 361m explosion radius, 125m/s explosion velocity and 13km/s velocity) Or 776 DPS with Navy Cruises.
  • Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)
  • Vargur with 800mm autocannons II with Republic Fleet EMP: 955 DPS at 4km range + 68.8km falloff
  • Vargur with 1400mm artilleries, with Republic Fleet EMP: 720DPS at 43km range+134km falloff


    • Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable Evil), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE.


    So while there are still concerns for PvP, I don't think you realize how efficient those things are for PvE. We feel like Dr. Frankenstein looking at a slab with a half-decaying corpses coming back to life. We've created monsters. Mission / PvE efficiency is not all about pure damage. It's also about mobility, projection and time you spend shooting. MJD + MWD helps with the first, Bastion plus new Kronos / Paladin bonuses give the second and EW immunity grants you the last.

    As such we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode - if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE.


Hope this wall of text helps a bit (PvE side, as I said, we aren't talking about PvP in this post).


Also, here is a preview of the transformation mode on the Kronos.

But would you consider a scan res bonus? Like 20-25%? While in bastion mode?

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Cade Windstalker
#1516 - 2013-09-02 18:24:50 UTC
Have you all considered a script for Bastion that would remove/reduce the resist bonus in exchange for allowing remote repair? That might help the ships in Incursions or PvP. Alternatively it might be better just to buff the base hulls and take the difference out of Bastion for slightly more PvP effectiveness.

That said I think people may be underestimating the effectiveness of 4 utility highs on a Battleship, especially with the NOS changes.

Sure they get jammed easily but ECM needs a balance pass and it doesn't exactly show up in every fight (I think people would go nuts if it did).
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1517 - 2013-09-02 18:25:02 UTC
Battle Cube wrote:
While the blue post is appreciated.... i cant be the only one disappointing in those vargur numbers comparing even to a current vargur, or to a pirate bs.....

Maybe its just me, but it shouldn't just "compare" to a pirate bs if it costs the same but take more skills

And ok so it can tank the first wave of a VG but with no benefit due to lost dps, so its just 'comparable' for doing L4s. Exciting.






"we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode"

well i think i'm done here.



i guess i'll play with one for like 20 minutes though, i guess.



You have a bit less damage and less mobility, but better damage application, more tank, EW immunity, less ammunition consumption, more range on tractor beams, MJD reduction bonus. Apple and oranges. Again, point of Tech2 in the new scheme isn't to make them all better than other hulls Blink
Dave stark
#1518 - 2013-09-02 18:30:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
so pirate battleships still do more dps, and still have useful bonuses (eg web bonuses) so you'll never bother with a marauder in incursions.

won't waste my time training for a marauder then.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1519 - 2013-09-02 18:30:24 UTC
Think the curcial thing here is that, while you can use hightracking SR weapon platforms, your time-on-target is pretty much 100%. You can solo tank a vanguard. And it reads as if a vargur could tank the extravaganza bonus room with a gist c-type large, while having three gyros, two TEs, two TCs and a sebo running... Which could push your RF Fusionrange towards 100km falloff, your neutron blasters with null even to wreck things at 80-90km.

Paladin even has almost every mission within optimal using Xray with tachs...


Good thing soloing a vanguard isn't the best ISK/hour, so that extreme tanking potential might be wasted anywhere outside of high-end wormholes. Over there, you got Blood Union to keep things under control. Economy is safe.
Shadalana
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1520 - 2013-09-02 18:37:37 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)

    • srsly? even a kronos reaches with Federation Navy Antimatter ~48km...