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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#941 - 2013-08-30 22:45:08 UTC
I like EVERYTHING about this- we'll literally get TRANSFORMERS for SHIPS. Like mini-UNICRON. The only thing I don't understand is the fact that, to activate the bastion mod, you have to deactivate security; I really just don't see any real purpose o this, and it's kind of arbitrary.

Regardless, I'll be happy to fly a giant Autobot this winter! Big smile

"A City made of Dreams is built in heaven"
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#942 - 2013-08-30 22:45:55 UTC
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
I like EVERYTHING about this- we'll literally get TRANSFORMERS for SHIPS. Like mini-UNICRON. The only thing I don't understand is the fact that, to activate the bastion mod, you have to deactivate security; I really just don't see any real purpose o this, and it's kind of arbitrary.

Regardless, I'll be happy to fly a giant Autobot this winter! Big smile

You don't have to deactivate security.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#943 - 2013-08-30 22:48:54 UTC
you know, i really love the idea they are going for.... in the "stepping stone" sort of way, i love the option for a transforming mode for a ship you can use in highsec, its like candy XD I want to use this ship, but no matter how COOL it is, it just doesnt merit use VS other ships....

if this is the way its going to be, i might use it in L4s for fun every few months. For sure it would be pretty safe.... but.... and im sure most of eve agrees with me here.... we dont want an indestructable L4 runner.

its tank isnt enough to solo much, and it wouldnt work well with a group especially with it just being good at tanking (unless we got aggro mechanics lol )
Battle Cube
Cube Collective
#944 - 2013-08-30 22:50:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Battle Cube
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Battle Cube wrote:
Less tank mods? Meaning that when not in bastion mode, really weak tank? Sounds like a great idea.

Which is balanced by the fact that you can microjump immediately after leaving bastion mode, assuming you're not scrammed in the 9 to 11.4 seconds between leaving bastion, starting the MJD cycle, and microjumping.
Of course this depends entirely on how it works. Maybe if you time it right you could even activate the MJD near the end of bastion mode, leave bastion mode, and microjump immediately without the spool up time, giving people very little time to scram you.


more like the 1-80sec + 9-11.4 between when you see them coming to scramble you, and the moment you can get out of the way.

(i dont think you can start the spool till the bastion cycle is completely done, but i could be wrong. Either way, waiting for the bastion to cycle down is a big deal )

.
John Holt
State War Academy
Caldari State
#945 - 2013-08-30 22:51:38 UTC
please keep the tractor. As a mission runner it helps me salvage as I go.

Done my time in null sec, now I'm just a Privateer wandering around High and Low Sec.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#946 - 2013-08-30 22:53:39 UTC
For me its a Small/Medium Gang PvE Funboat!

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
John Holt
State War Academy
Caldari State
#947 - 2013-08-30 22:54:12 UTC
GeeBee wrote:
Greetings CCP.

While it seems you're willing to change the mauraders I do not believe you're willing to buff them enough to be useful for the cost or skill requirements that they have for any purpose other than highsec mission running.

I've got a shiny kronos that once in a while (years now) i'll hop in and go run L4s blitzing away.

It's setup with an omnitank, 425s. and Afterburner and primarily does sniper kiting tactics, It's a fun setup and is very survivable.

The baston module to me has little or no appeal for this setup, it already has plenty of range and tank and its own movement helps maintain tracking. the MJD bonus could be handy, but i really dont see myself fitting one over the afterburner, which would take away a cap recharger or a tracking computer.

So my *wishlist* for my long unused shiny ship of olde would be

1) don't nerf the speed on the hull
2) give them some better base cap regen
3) don't nerf my drone bay
4) give them proper sensor strengths
5) you're adding a high slot for the bastion module, an argument could be made that a midslot should be added for the MJD as this seems to be a staple for how it is intended to operate.

The bastion module.....
I'm really not digging this thing, its only purpose is mission running, if you were to pvp with it its like a dreadnaught with 1/12 the ehp, 1/10th the damage, 1/4 the tank for 1/2 the price, its going to get splattered by any formidable crew of subcaps.

1) remove the weapons timer - this things already going to have issues in pvp, this is insult to injury.
2) add some kind of a damage bonus, i'd like to see maybe 1200-1300 dps from 425s on a kronos when using this module, prolly about 2k dps when using blasters, too lazy to do the math for the percentages, at least im not asking for crazyness like 3-4k like others.
3) add some kind of energy neut protection, this thing pretty much has every form of defense covered except that, add a base 25% reflect when the bastion module is activated maybe? I mean this is basically a 2 trick pony if you're going to sit still with your 1bil base hull cost shiny thing using the godmode defensive module of the century it should at least have all the obvious vulnerabilities plugged.


What he said. Really need the drones.

Done my time in null sec, now I'm just a Privateer wandering around High and Low Sec.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#948 - 2013-08-30 22:57:33 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Berluth Luthian wrote:
The TP cycle time is for all TPs right? Not just on golems? That's an odd note to sneak this in on...


I read it as just on Marauders i.e. Golems but CCP Ytterbium please clarify this change.


Target painter cycle reduction is on the module themselves.


Just by itself, this is an awesome improvement and a major buff to target painters.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#949 - 2013-08-30 22:59:59 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Just another quick update.


  • We are removing the BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIE™ SKILL, as the name was just too awesome to be released to the public (ok ok, more seriously we got the point: having to train a new rank 8 skill just for this module wasn't appealing). Instead, the bastion mode will use high energy physics 4 and energy grid upgrades 5. The former is rank 5, the later you already need to fly the class. The bastion mode cycle time will be reduced to 60s by default to compensate.

  • We hear you regarding having to drop the safeties to use the bastion mode in high-sec - we're going to fix it so you don't have to drop them to use the module. However you'll still receive a weapon timer when activating it.


Adjusting OP to reflect this.

EDIT: remember all of this is subject to change - training high energy physics is at your own risk if the bastion mode skill requirements change.



Thank you for making this change.

Also, can we please get a T2 version of the Bastion Module?

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Baron vonDoom
Scorn.
#950 - 2013-08-30 23:01:09 UTC
Cycle time for the bastion mod needs to go down. It takes a badly skilled, non-speed fit ceptor 20 seconds to cover 100 km without even overheating. In the meantime, the rest of the gang moves additional 50 k off and has a warpin as well as a scrammed marauder.

Considering the lock times on a ceptor and gun cycles, removal of web bonuses and nerfed drone bays there is little chance of volleying more than 1-2 off before they get under the guns.

In this iteration, they may be nice PVE ships, but otherwise sitting ducks.
White Bear Maricadie
Downloaded Bears
#951 - 2013-08-30 23:01:21 UTC
So the idea that this would make them any better for PVP seems kinda silly. Fully skilled the bastion mode would still make you a stationary target for i min unable to move. any frig pilot worth their salt can easily close that distance without any fear of being hit by your guns, and to have a ship that expensive that can be easily neuted out by a single cruiser. the risk is very high and the reward is laughable. i get more range but no more damage and once anything gets close i would be totally helpless. for anyone who is unknowing of how the MJD works, a scram shuts it off. if i jumped thru a gate and saw a marauder sitting at 200k in bastion i would simply move laterally pop combats do 1 sweep and warp right to him point him,. range will do nothing for them without the ability to deal with things that get close.

any pilot who has flown a sniper boat knows your mobility is your only saving grace. but for a marauder to make the most of their range they have to give that up.
DaeHan Minhyok
Logical Outcomes
#952 - 2013-08-30 23:02:06 UTC
I tried scanning through all teh posts to see if anyone mentioned teh golem yet, but didn't see it.

So most people consider the phoenix a worthless dread, mostly because a pos can speed tank citadel torps/cruis, and I see the same problem with this.

Oh yes, let me just MJD and bastion away from this gang, oh yeah, thats right, my torps only go 50ishkm and just about any pvp battleship could speed tank cruise missiles, esp if they're now an extra 100km.

The usless golem is about to stay equally useless.

no thats not quite true, I could always use it to tp for other marauders or play drone bunny for a das boot fleet.

despite the raven base of the golem baybe we can look at giving it turret slots and equivalent bonuses for turret damage as well as/in place of the missile bonuses. I know it was considered for the naga. I understand its a difficlut decision for a set of ships like caldari that are so split between weapon types all up and down the lineup from frigs to caps.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#953 - 2013-08-30 23:07:16 UTC
Amadeus3 wrote:
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Hmm, this is unique and fun CCP :),

For PvE those will a beast ships:

1) long range as needed.
2) 2 flights of small drones - sufficient for PvE (no idea why people ***** about that - I already use 2 flights of small drones and 1 flight of salvage drones in my Paladin).
3) I didn't like the web bonus - I could not hit frigs anyway , and everything else was shot down just fine.
4) insane omni tank - the resists are still low but with 135% rep bonus it does not matter.
5) ewar immunity will just make other ships obsolete in lvl 4 missions (hope it works on tracing disruption).
6) they could use small dps bonus (like 10% or 15 %) but will still be good without it.

However for PvP:

1) no buffer
2) no dps advantage
3) immobile
4) asking for tornado alpha strike
5) still can be caped out I imagine and killed by small gang
6) asking for dreadnoughts guns attention
7) can't be remotely repped (no one will fly such an expensive ship without remote reps)
8) no real advantage over anything currently in use
9) can dominate next Alliance Tournament but only in this form of PvP it has its uses.




It's a long post but worth quoting IMHO. I can see how the proposed marauders will rule in PVE but I can't see them being used in PVP (outside of a few niche applications).


Well not entirely true.

1. The extra range is nice on the Paladin, the falloff bonus is kind of pointless on the Kronos(because it is mostly a rail platform) and overall I don't think the bonus is worth the loss in web strength, I would rather like to see that the active tank bonus would removed in favour of a damage application bonus(since it is fairly pointless for L4 and useless for PVE with RR).
2. The lost Sentry option is quite massive nerf for the Kronos, for stuff like Incs you use your full drone bay for sentry's, since you can utilize focus webbing and painting.
3. While it is not really required in Amarr space and on the paladin(because most stuff stays at range) it is fairly important for a sentry/rail Kronos to keep the dps up at closer range and a extreme important bonus for the hulls in Incrusions.
4. You can tank L4 just fine with them now, while fitting 4 damage mods and a T2 damage rig. If you didn't over tank the hulls before, it means nothing.
5. It only really hurts vs Guristas, then again ECM is the worst EW ever.
6. The dps they have with her drones is fine atm, the drone nerf will cost them up to 120dps and will hit the Kronos the hardest(surprisingly the worst marauder dps wise, since it is crippled by missing 2 sentry drones).

Overall if you want to do L4 reasonable quick the changes are bad, you lose dps, you lose the 90% web, you lose a lot of speed with the mwd(because you want to fit a mwd, not a mjd) and take even longer to switch systems, all for a massive active tank, that nobody should need and what prevents you from moving to the next gate while shooting stuff. For PVE with RR like Incursions or WH the changes are even worse, since the active tank stuff does nothing for you and you lose quite a bit dps, speed and one of the best ship bonuses for it.

Even for PVP I would rather prefer a bit more speed, another damage application bonus and a slight buff in the RR ability, to have a good alternative compared to the pirate BS, instead a slow active tanking brick, that screams bait or simple will be shoot last in a gang fight.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#954 - 2013-08-30 23:08:14 UTC
DaeHan Minhyok wrote:
Oh yes, let me just MJD and bastion away from this gang, oh yeah, thats right, my torps only go 50ishkm and just about any pvp battleship could speed tank cruise missiles, esp if they're now an extra 100km.

The usless golem is about to stay equally useless.



As horrible as this marauder proposal (fait accomplis?) is, cruise missiles are nowhere near being the problem. Cruise missiles with a target painter will destroy a T2 frigate flying at max speed (i've seen that on SISI). They will also destroy a HAC - even a deimos flying at full speed (again, seen it).

Cruise missiles are currently the best, most versatile battleship class weapons system in the game. They have been made this way to try to push them back into PVP where they have been shunned by FCs for years.

Your golem's cruise missiles will perform perfectly well - and you won't even need to use the micro jump module because they are the only long range weapon system that can hit at short range.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Ares Zhin
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#955 - 2013-08-30 23:08:28 UTC
so i wasted all that time training for marauder? Please don't do this bastion!! Its ********, just give it a tech 2 profile, keep the web bonuses, KILL THE TRACTOR BEAM or atleast give it a 500% bonus to range and speed.

ADD more armor/shield HP

Keep the drones cuz when frigs get to close what are you going to do then???

For the kronos id love another mid slot so it would be comparable to the vindicator.

ADD MORE SENSOR STRENGTH cuz lets face it, a set of light ecm drones can keep you perma jammed.

If you do these proposed fixes i think it will do well in PVP as well as in PVE if not even better.


Your proposal does NOTHING to fix or help the ship AT ALL. I mean mini- dreads lol, i guess the next thing will be mini-titans.


Please fix the issues before you create new ones!!
Kirin Xaxos
Downloaded Bears
#956 - 2013-08-30 23:16:17 UTC
Why would the Kronos and Paladin loose their web bonus if the Golum keeps its TP bonus? both web and TP are meant to allow the marauder to maximize his dps, that change would clearly make the kronos and paladin much weaker choices for PvE. and PvP.
i have noticed a lot of people in support of these changes for pvp, who i can only imagine are trolling and trying to seed misinformation on the mechanics of the MJD, in hopes of finding some PvP noob who doesn't know any better. the MJD is not a magical saving grace, a simple scram shuts it off, having extra range means nothing to a skilled tackler who keeps his Transversal up he can come right for you and your guns will gloriously miss. even if your in bastion all he has to do is orbit at close range and kill your small amount of drones waiting for his buddy in a neuting cruiser or Battle Ship to show up and then you die a slow painful death. all the while your bastion and range mean NOTHING.
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#957 - 2013-08-30 23:23:00 UTC  |  Edited by: nahjustwarpin
CCP you are making ships that are good at tanking and beaten in everything else by pirate ships by improving their tanking abilities.

I know you like lmjd, but seriously, why are you trying to make this mod so important? what's next? target braker?

how marauders could be balanced is make them a bit worse than pirate ships (well they are already so we can skip that Roll) but instead of bastion module, make a module that improves tank and gank at cost of burned fuel which improves over efficiency by 25-50%.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#958 - 2013-08-30 23:23:37 UTC
Kirin Xaxos wrote:
Why would the Kronos and Paladin loose their web bonus if the Golum keeps its TP bonus? both web and TP are meant to allow the marauder to maximize his dps, that change would clearly make the kronos and paladin much weaker choices for PvE. and PvP.
i have noticed a lot of people in support of these changes for pvp, who i can only imagine are trolling and trying to seed misinformation on the mechanics of the MJD, in hopes of finding some PvP noob who doesn't know any better. the MJD is not a magical saving grace, a simple scram shuts it off, having extra range means nothing to a skilled tackler who keeps his Transversal up he can come right for you and your guns will gloriously miss. even if your in bastion all he has to do is orbit at close range and kill your small amount of drones waiting for his buddy in a neuting cruiser or Battle Ship to show up and then you die a slow painful death. all the while your bastion and range mean NOTHING.

Gee it's almost as if ships have weaknesses.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Fruitfly Three
Downloaded Bears
#959 - 2013-08-30 23:25:43 UTC
why not fix the sensor strength on the marauders? that along with t2 resists would be more then enough to make the PvP viable.
the tractor beam buff seems silly altogether. what lvl 4 runner doesn't use a noctis? please keep the web bonus, any paladin or kronos pilot who dosent use their webs or cant seem to make it work probably shouldn't even fly a marauder. half the reason i love the paladin is the webs being able to pop the tiny stuff that gets close, and apply Full DPS to the close orbiting cruisers and BS's i didn't train into this ship to watch my ****** little drones slowly kill frigs and cruisers. i want to webb them down and blap them in a single volly with my guns.
Fruitfly Three
Downloaded Bears
#960 - 2013-08-30 23:27:04 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kirin Xaxos wrote:
Why would the Kronos and Paladin loose their web bonus if the Golum keeps its TP bonus? both web and TP are meant to allow the marauder to maximize his dps, that change would clearly make the kronos and paladin much weaker choices for PvE. and PvP.
i have noticed a lot of people in support of these changes for pvp, who i can only imagine are trolling and trying to seed misinformation on the mechanics of the MJD, in hopes of finding some PvP noob who doesn't know any better. the MJD is not a magical saving grace, a simple scram shuts it off, having extra range means nothing to a skilled tackler who keeps his Transversal up he can come right for you and your guns will gloriously miss. even if your in bastion all he has to do is orbit at close range and kill your small amount of drones waiting for his buddy in a neuting cruiser or Battle Ship to show up and then you die a slow painful death. all the while your bastion and range mean NOTHING.

Gee it's almost as if ships have weaknesses.


its almost like he was pointing out the glaring weaknesses that are presented with this change, that many had not thought of.