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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#301 - 2013-08-29 23:14:21 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
I'm not sure I follow this Shocked - if you're talking about missions, a web bonus is not needed - with turrets, you snipe the frigates first before they come in close. Even when they do come close, a 90% web usually isn't enough to keep transversal down to hit them with large guns.


Perhaps not (respectfully, can you back this with mathematics?), but a 20m/s frigate is a *lot* easier for a drone or blaster to take apart than a 100m/s one.

The combination of bonused web, neuts and high dps could have made the kronos interesting to me in pvp.

The "jump around the battlefield in a contrived manner" kronos just offends me.

I'll be bowing out of this thread now. I like what's happened to command ships and HACs - they have become more pleasing. This proposal just saddens me.

Straight

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#302 - 2013-08-29 23:16:02 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

You had me thinking about 350k EHP Kronos fits with a dcu and bulkhead until I remembered that resists don't simply add like you suggested.

Hull resists =
60% from DCU2
+ 40 (remaining resists) * 30% (from Bastion) * .87 (if stacking penalized).
= 72% resists (70.5% if stacking Penalized), not 90%.


Correct. My excitement got ahead of my math. It's still crazy amounts of added resist. Especially for PVE carebears that don't normally like to fit DCs to their stuff.
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#303 - 2013-08-29 23:16:05 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


Multiplicative, thus 72%.


It does not have stacking penalties with the damage control modules/RAH as well, right?
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#304 - 2013-08-29 23:16:49 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
im not sure what to think of this, i really like the sci-fi awesomeness of the hulls reconfiguring in space, but the actual specifics based on what seems to be the intended PvP purpose of the changes is quite a bit of a miss-fire.

What seems to be lacking is a side effect of the bastion mod to remove the local unlocking feature of the Target Spectrum Breaker, maybe even an increase in the effectiveness in conjunction to it.

local tanking is a joke, if CCP is serious about the adoption of these changes (to bring this into a viable state to be used in anything other than niche edge cases in small scale pvp) then there needs to be some deeper thought into what a BS level ehp ship can bring, especially one that can only local tank.

(pssst.... ill give u a hint, in fleet scale pvp not much at all)
Johann Rascali
The Milkmen
Churn and Burn
#305 - 2013-08-29 23:17:21 UTC
The "can't use the Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration skill because of its point of reducing fuel use" excuse doesn't hold up very well next to the Black Ops jump portal using the skill that reduces fuel use in Titans while not using any fuel itself.

But then again, maybe I just made the mistake of pointing out another place to add a skill to train for precisely one module...

Blanking signatures doesn't seem to work, so this is here.
Tauren Tom
Order of the Silver Dragons
Silver Dragonz
#306 - 2013-08-29 23:18:07 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Kismeteer wrote:
Yeah, because the problem with eve was that level 4 missions were just too slow.

I have no idea why you are buffing empire missioning to such a large degree.


See the other side of the coin: You may actually see these now being used in Fleet Doctrines\PvP more often given this ability rather than shiny L4 Mission Runners and with that a lot more of them dying on the field.



AHAHAHAHAH no.

clearly you haven't heard about how CFC and HBC began CUTTING fleet doctrines that exceeded 170mil base hull cost. It's too expensive to fly these unless you sit in rens with 10 neutral rep guardians standing nearby to save your arse.
In the grand scheme of things... You're all pubbies. So HTFU.   "It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses." - Elwood Blues
stoicfaux
#307 - 2013-08-29 23:18:16 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

As a final combo bonus, we also are changing Target Painter cycle time from 10 to 5 seconds, and reducing their cap usage to compensate - waiting for the Target Painter cycle to finish before swapping targets is quite annoying on the Golem.

Words do not suffice. To express my gratitude, I am willing to carry your man-babies.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#308 - 2013-08-29 23:18:45 UTC
Mooer wrote:
not only YEAH!!!!!
but HELL YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

alot of the things we were advocating for (better pg/cpu, mjd mobilitiy) and more.

the bastion mode rawx!

warp into a lev 4 or 5, mjd up away from alot of the bad guys and enter (beast) bastion mode. smack everything down. if things get too close, mjd away and open up again.

lev 4 mission runners dream.

plus, imagine these on a gate camp ready to mode out.



they are normal marauders with bad ass power grids until they deploy, then they enter beast mode.

atleast we have a direction now.. i dig em. especially since they can be used as normal without further training and have major fitting improvements.



can't you like do it already in a domi?

bastion mode doesn't improve much in missionrunning area - you can do all missions in mach or other pirate ships that cost as much and have better dps baked into hull. Who will really turn bastion mode on when you can do missions in existing hulls ;/ This mode is for special scenarios, but there aren't many of them (10/10 can already be mostly soloed, in wh you're risking alot)
Tzel Mayon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#309 - 2013-08-29 23:18:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tzel Mayon
CCP Ytterbium wrote:




When they're close, use drones - and Marauders still have enough dronebay to use lights and take care of that. With missiles, bit pointless to shoot frigates first.



The reason we target frigates first in PvP, PvE, etc, and especially epic arcs, is that Frigates are usually applying their ECM first.

It really isn't a matter of "can I hit you up close" as much as it is an ECM issue. Don't get me wrong, with turrets, sure, its an issue, mitigated wtih drones.

But the issue is ECM.

And, the drone bays should be able to have enough for salvage drones, and at least 2 flights of lights, (so you can keep alternative damage type, or opt for tracking over range, etc).

I prefer the same flexibility with mediums too. So, 2 flights of lights, 2 flights of mediums, and 1 flight of salvage ... :) Too much to ask for?

75 for the lights + salvage ... then 100 more for the medium drone options for Amarr and Galente. :)
Azriel X
#310 - 2013-08-29 23:20:43 UTC
Johann Rascali wrote:
The "can't use the Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration skill because of its point of reducing fuel use" excuse doesn't hold up very well next to the Black Ops jump portal using the skill that reduces fuel use in Titans while not using any fuel itself.

But then again, maybe I just made the mistake of pointing out another place to add a skill to train for precisely one module...


umm but it does use fuel... and the skill does reduce fuel use.
Tauren Tom
Order of the Silver Dragons
Silver Dragonz
#311 - 2013-08-29 23:22:45 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though).

Do not underestimate the use of the bastion module, even for missions. The innate tank allows removal of tanking modules on fittings and the projection bonus helps a lot as well. I remember reaching 55-60km falloff on a Null Neutron Blaster Kronos on our internal test server Shocked

Only one bastion module may be fitted, but the resistance given don't stack, just like Damage Control. You can still fit one -with- a damage control though.



So... who's bright idea was it to make it a "Random module goes here!" ship? And what happened to single purpose specializations like the last batch of ship changes? Now we're suddenly getting a "multi-use" ship which appears to be from a game of "Let's throw darts at the idea wall and see what we hit!"
In the grand scheme of things... You're all pubbies. So HTFU.   "It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses." - Elwood Blues
Tzel Mayon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#312 - 2013-08-29 23:23:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tzel Mayon
MeBiatch wrote:
So any chance we will see a tech ii mjd with longer jump range? Maybe 150 km?





Ideally,

To fit with the "HARASSMENT Theme of the balanced Mauraders, I think:

There should be a mechanic to get frigates close to battleships without being vaporized in the process.

Mauraders should get a Micro Jump Portal Generator that only allows flights of frigates through. (Or some m3 limitation like in wormholes). (You would "paint" a target where the frigates would end up at, within 10km or so.)


If this isn't possible, then maybe:

I would like frigates to get small micro-jump drives so that they can be used in large incursion fights effectively. I think the bigger the ship, the longer it should take to MJD, or the shorter distance you go ...
Styledatol
Stellar Forge Industries
#313 - 2013-08-29 23:23:29 UTC
I foresee...
- bastion gatecamps
- bomber's bar pissing themselves from happiness
- lowclass wh pvp changing radically



Now, forgive me while I go change my pants
Ariel Dawn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#314 - 2013-08-29 23:24:07 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I had a long think about how I might use this ship. I cannot think of a scenario in which it would be useful.

Neither can I construct a rational narrative to support bastion mode, so there's a problem there for me.

I think if you wanted to see these ships in PVP all you had to do was increase the sensor strength and make no other changes whatsoever. They were fine.

I am deeply disappointed by this proposal and cannot in good conscience support it.

My apologies.



Small-medium gang ships that are the absolute solution to Falcons/Rooks. Ewar immunity along with massive range and DPS means that any untanked ECM will have difficulty staying on field.
Tauren Tom
Order of the Silver Dragons
Silver Dragonz
#315 - 2013-08-29 23:24:36 UTC
nahjustwarpin wrote:
Mooer wrote:
not only YEAH!!!!!
but HELL YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

alot of the things we were advocating for (better pg/cpu, mjd mobilitiy) and more.

the bastion mode rawx!

warp into a lev 4 or 5, mjd up away from alot of the bad guys and enter (beast) bastion mode. smack everything down. if things get too close, mjd away and open up again.

lev 4 mission runners dream.

plus, imagine these on a gate camp ready to mode out.



they are normal marauders with bad ass power grids until they deploy, then they enter beast mode.

atleast we have a direction now.. i dig em. especially since they can be used as normal without further training and have major fitting improvements.



can't you like do it already in a domi?

bastion mode doesn't improve much in missionrunning area - you can do all missions in mach or other pirate ships that cost as much and have better dps baked into hull. Who will really turn bastion mode on when you can do missions in existing hulls ;/ This mode is for special scenarios, but there aren't many of them (10/10 can already be mostly soloed, in wh you're risking alot)



I see to recall a statement of no risk, no reward... Now we're being given a "run away" option and not having to worry about being stupid and losing things eh...
In the grand scheme of things... You're all pubbies. So HTFU.   "It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses." - Elwood Blues
Gwen Ambraelle
Last Train From Cadspugh
#316 - 2013-08-29 23:25:16 UTC
I love my Pally as it is now. It's a great ship for doing missions. And BTW Ytterbium, with a faction web a regularly kill figs at 5000 m with Large Pulse guns.

But these changes, oh my goddess...

Are amazing!

The PvE possibilities are fantastic. But, and I think this is where CCP are going with this, for the first time I would think of taking a Pally to do lvl5's / low sec anoms.

For me the new Bastion mode is not aimed at PvE use (good though it will be there). It's for when you are ratting / misisoning in lo sec and a small / medium sized gang try's to kill your mission ship!

Love the changes, looking forward to seeing it on Sisi.

:-)
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#317 - 2013-08-29 23:26:29 UTC
Wow. Definitely happy I started speculated on Marauders a couple months ago. Wallet Win!

Changes definitely look good. Though kinda worried they might be a bit OP'd with the Ody 1.1 changes to local reps. Especially when you get a group of them jumping around in small gang fights.
Nikolai Vodkov
Pro Synergy
#318 - 2013-08-29 23:27:24 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Yes, this can be used in high-sec of course. You just get a weapon timer (requires security to be turned off though).


Please don't do this. Why???? What does safety have to do with activating a module which has nothing to do with criminal actions. You don't need safety off to shoot at a corpmate or a wartarget or a suspect even though it gives you a weapon timer.

Speaking of safety, please bring back warning popups on criminals actions WHEN SAFETY IS OFF. That way newbies can actually learn what action results in what consequence from the game after they turn off safety. Would need an option to permanently disable popups but that would be easy to do.

Great job otherwise. Keep up the good work. Can't wait for winter to come!

Run level 4 missions?  Increase your income and help new players earn ISK.  Join channel: [b]Pro Synergy Pro Synergy[/b] is looking for dedicated Salvagers.  Want to learn more?  Join channel: Pro Synergy
MJ Incognito
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#319 - 2013-08-29 23:27:32 UTC  |  Edited by: MJ Incognito
It seems like the gap between ASBs and Large armor repair systems is widening a great deal due to these bonuses. From what I can gather... an ASB Vargur can repair about something like 70,000 ehp every second..... a Paladin can only repair like 10k ehp/s.

And oh yeah, the ASB is capless... I mean come on.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#320 - 2013-08-29 23:28:39 UTC
I can't decide if I want to sell my golem now or keep it. I've never really been a fan of MJDs, and Marauders now being built around them? Egh.

Not to mention how abysmally slow and ponderous they are as of these changes, despite being based off of the Attack battleship hulls. :\ That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, personally.