These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Skill Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

SP game breaking for new players. Please take your time to read this CCP.

First post First post
Author
Ruby Pyrenne
Doomheim
#761 - 2013-08-21 11:56:23 UTC
I currently have 110k SP.

I'm not an alt.

I find myself being perfectly capable of doing what I can do at this stage of the game.

I have goals I wish to reach but for me to start worrying about them now seems a waste of time, I have my hands full doing the things I do now - I feel that at this pace my SP will have me ready for things I am not ready for when my 'SP goal' has numerically has been reached.

In short, I disagree with the op.

  http://rubypyrenne.wordpress.com/ part III posted @ 12 sept 2013

Admiral EnderWiggin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#762 - 2013-08-21 20:01:07 UTC
I´d like to drop my 2 cents in here.

Firstly, I think that the "SP wall" is there when you consider solo activities mainly. In a fleet that picture is a lot different as you can help in many ways even with a new character ... the main point here being that if you solo you will have a hard time, otherwise, no.

Secondly, I do think that EVE Devs have to be careful about power creep ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep ) , because things like spliting Battleship skills into racials is what makes it take much longer to reach desired goals. I partially agree with the statement that the SP time it takes to train skills makes some new players give up on the game, but i also think that new players would enjoy the game better if there were tools to help them do what they want faster ... FW for example tries to take PvP to newer players ... the problem is teaching them how to get there and interact with it. Overall I think the game is improving with every patch. I could see a instantiated PvP arena / battleground system helping in getting players to keep playing the game. How about AT style fights for different SP level of players ? ??? ?? That would be awesome in my opinion ... I for one dream of geting in an AT team someday but I still got ways to go on learning PvP and geting Kills before geting there ... and I've been asked to train to certain levels of skills several times before joining a corp ... which makes SP a WALL to joining serious corps.

I gotta go now , but i hope my words make some sense, didn't have time to re-read it all.

Fly safe o7.
Orlacc
#763 - 2013-08-22 00:19:58 UTC
Admiral EnderWiggin wrote:
I´d like to drop my 2 cents in here.

Firstly, I think that the "SP wall" is there when you consider solo activities mainly. In a fleet that picture is a lot different as you can help in many ways even with a new character ... the main point here being that if you solo you will have a hard time, otherwise, no.

Secondly, I do think that EVE Devs have to be careful about power creep ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep ) , because things like spliting Battleship skills into racials is what makes it take much longer to reach desired goals. I partially agree with the statement that the SP time it takes to train skills makes some new players give up on the game, but i also think that new players would enjoy the game better if there were tools to help them do what they want faster ... FW for example tries to take PvP to newer players ... the problem is teaching them how to get there and interact with it. Overall I think the game is improving with every patch. I could see a instantiated PvP arena / battleground system helping in getting players to keep playing the game. How about AT style fights for different SP level of players ? ??? ?? That would be awesome in my opinion ... I for one dream of geting in an AT team someday but I still got ways to go on learning PvP and geting Kills before geting there ... and I've been asked to train to certain levels of skills several times before joining a corp ... which makes SP a WALL to joining serious corps.

I gotta go now , but i hope my words make some sense, didn't have time to re-read it all.

Fly safe o7.



Quit at "instantiated PvP."

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

O2 jayjay
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#764 - 2013-08-22 00:44:37 UTC
I don't think we is too harsh for new players. I made a lot of mistakes when I first started playing. It took me a month before I figured out how much damage I could do to someone. Dampening an enemy is extremely lethal and doesn't take long for a new player to skill for. Same goes with jamming which will greatly turn the battle. Numbers are the most important thing in eve. Burn Jita is a perfect example. New player need to stop flying BC and BS and stay with the frigs. Plex a few times and get the hang of PVP. That's where the real enjoyment of eve is
Aivo Dresden
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#765 - 2013-08-26 09:56:24 UTC
SP is just fine. It literally takes a few hours to fit a frigate with guns, a web/scram and go PvPing. You can get a cruiser with medium guns in what 24h-48h? I think people complaining about this are under the impression it's the skill point difference costing them fights. Lol.

If you are talking about PvE content, mission difficulty and standing scales well with SP gain. "Warp to me" will run incursions with new pilots, ... There are options and ways to deal with the SP system and EVE has a bit of everything if you care to go look for it.

Although if you are a brand new player and all this waiting is too much for you, go check out the character Bazaar.
Antony E Stark
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#766 - 2013-08-26 18:52:05 UTC
I'm an alt and have about 1m sp so far in the short time I've been here. That said, if I were new I could still be effective. A 5 year old player has little advantage over a new one in terms of combat or mission capability. Remember, skills can only go to 5 and a raven is just a raven no matter who pilots it.

The main advantage comes in terms of experience - like any game. A vet vs a newbie in a rifter, both with equal/similar skills for arguments sake are equally pit against each other. The vet will most likely win as they probably have more experience flying the ship, knowing what to do and when.

The "glass ceiling" works both ways, and even the underdog can out think and out smart someone with more skill points.

Don't be in such a rush to get into that Titan cupcake, enjoy the game along the way from frigs, cruisers, bcs, battleships and on from there. Maybe you won't go into capitals, maybe hacs, maybe not. The choice is yours. Be bold pilot ;)
Tekali
Venduzas Veil
#767 - 2013-09-04 12:33:06 UTC
Just my 2 isk

a little back story, i have just returned to eve after a 5 month hiatus, and was just sitting at work figuring out my next plan of action ( just as a side not in my opinion 25-50% of even is played offline planning researching ect) now i came across this post and read every comment on every page and was left with a single point.

You played for a few days and directly went to the shops bought yourself a char and plodded along on your way to your so called "greatness"

Personally and let me make it clear this is my opinion. YOU MISSED OUT ON ALL THE GREATNESS. The greatness you talk about comes from having nothing, derives from paying your dues, beating your goals, learning the ropes, building it all up the hard way. The greatness you talk about is the journey from nothing to YOUR "something". I Came into this game with no idea what it was about, what it had to offer and 2 years later i spend a few hours everyday offline planning my next move. You talk about this game as if you were a new player struggling to find direction, or purpose - you fight for a solution to a "SP Wall" that exists only in your head. This whole game is one big wall...the moment you start playing you either decide to help build the wall, smash through the wall, or explore the wall. How you do it well that is the "GREATNESS" you talk about.

My point is, you have jumped the Que, and now fight for a cause that you yourself decided to give up on and push to the side. I once read that to learn every skill to max it would take roughly 24 Years, this almost sounds daunting and discouraging, however think of it this way... We as people are born with nothing 0sp and yes you can be born into "greatness" or you can be born with nothing...either way there is stuff to be learnt, things to face, challenges to be met, and all these things whatever they be is the SP we so preciously chase after. Having said that by skipping all the learning, all the fails, all the ganks, all the scams as almost every noob and even some veterans face you miss out on all the fundamentals of this game that actually do matter... timing, patience, planning, organization, relationships, morals. These may seem silly to you however play a large part a lot higher up in the food chain of "greatness".

Now by many players standards i am a little fish in a big ocean, with no specific role/route/career/skill set/ or even profession however i couldn't care less, each pays for his own reasons, one day i wanna light up and watch rocks get hammered by lazors and make a bit of ISK the next i might want to hop in a frig and blow someone up, the next day i might want to sit in 4-4 do a bit of trading make a few stacks of ISK. Now your right, you may not be the Bill gates or the Micheal Jordan or even steve Irwin of eve, you may just own a trash can lid and a broomstick but that does not mean you are in anyway useless or pointless, this is a assumption made up on your own judgement. its been predefined by your mentality coming into the game. What you fail to realize is that it all adds up, its those simple things, those small fights, that extra 1 mil here 2 mil there, the extra help a random guy with a mission that will help you excel and find the "greatness"

Its truly ignorant to think that you could enter a game have everything handed to you and still have a reason to play, ask yourself honestly ... if you were given everything would you still wanna stick around? half of me understands the frustrations you obviously have for a steep learning curve and somewhat staggered game progression however the other half of me says, you don't wanna work for it, you don't want to put in the weeks/months/yrs, or the real money, or the game play, or the wins and the losses... then in my eyes you don't deserve the "greatness" . I came here with one goal. "Have fun" i wouldn't waste my money if i wasn't having fun - but reality is fun for everyone is different to tell you the truth i love the fact it will take 24 yrs to learn it all, i love the fact that in 2 yrs i might actually get to see a titan on my screen, i love the fact that 5bil in my wallet is not far off, i love the fact that my skill plan is loaded up with a yrs worth of skills, i love the fact that in order to get anywhere in this game YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO DO SOMETHING.

well most probably wont read this, i couldn't really care less however i will leave you with this OP - I've spent almost 2 yrs mostly solo playing, not because i cant match up but because i choose to challenge myself and the biggest thing I've learnt is.. ANYTHING can happen; skills change, ships are buffed or nerfed, people scam, some fights u win some you loose but in EVE everything matters. BUT until you stop cutting corners, hoping for a easier ride up ladder you will never learn how to beat your opponent with NOTHING .

oh p.s before you say "Assassination" again ...

- who can you talk to > CMS
- how can you see the greatness > make the greatness happen yourself...be the greatness (as cheesy as it sounds)
Karma Codolle
Chimera Research and Development
#768 - 2013-09-05 01:09:17 UTC
There's a very simple reason it takes 1.5 years of quality training to fly certain ships well.

A) They're expensive

B) They are the elite ships of the game, they shouldn't be given out quick

C) It will take 1.5 years to hammer into you that odds are you will lose that shiny ship probably in a stupid way I might add.

If you were to drop a bunch of cash and get into one of those in your first month or 2 of starting eve and then lose it. You'd be screaming at ccp to refund your ship and give it back, or probably just quit the game out of rage. Because you've only been playing for 2 months and don't understand yet they you aren't safe anywhere in the game and everything you have will potentially be lost at one point.

The training que acts as a safety buffer. Your first months in eve are spent losing worthless crap, stuff you can have fun in and learn and not worry about it going pop, because you have the isk to buy a few more. Or you joined the right corp and someone lent you some pocket change to buy a thousand more.


If your friends are quitting the game because they can't fly the biggest ship right away, then this game isn't for them. It's not a game where you go "ok played it for a few months, done everything, flown everything. lets find a new game!"


I've been playing for 3 years and i still haven't done everything in this game. Oh and all my accounts are original, never bought one. So i've never skipped ahead to buy a toon to hurry up and get in something

And i havent paid cash for a single account in over a year Pirate
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#769 - 2013-09-05 10:34:15 UTC
Orlacc wrote:
Admiral EnderWiggin wrote:
I´d like to drop my 2 cents in here.

Firstly, I think that the "SP wall" is there when you consider solo activities mainly. In a fleet that picture is a lot different as you can help in many ways even with a new character ... the main point here being that if you solo you will have a hard time, otherwise, no.

Secondly, I do think that EVE Devs have to be careful about power creep ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep ) , because things like spliting Battleship skills into racials is what makes it take much longer to reach desired goals. I partially agree with the statement that the SP time it takes to train skills makes some new players give up on the game, but i also think that new players would enjoy the game better if there were tools to help them do what they want faster ... FW for example tries to take PvP to newer players ... the problem is teaching them how to get there and interact with it. Overall I think the game is improving with every patch. I could see a instantiated PvP arena / battleground system helping in getting players to keep playing the game. How about AT style fights for different SP level of players ? ??? ?? That would be awesome in my opinion ... I for one dream of geting in an AT team someday but I still got ways to go on learning PvP and geting Kills before geting there ... and I've been asked to train to certain levels of skills several times before joining a corp ... which makes SP a WALL to joining serious corps.

I gotta go now , but i hope my words make some sense, didn't have time to re-read it all.

Fly safe o7.



Quit at "instantiated PvP."


We already have it. It's called the test server.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Ressiv
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#770 - 2013-09-05 12:04:14 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
stuff


Read:
This
then this
followed by this <= arguably, start here.
and finaly this

Then delete your first post or something and go play EVE
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#771 - 2013-09-05 22:48:26 UTC
In regards to PvP...

SPs only really matters for solo/small group combat. You can fight in fleets with a Celestis, Blackbird, Griffin, or Maulus quite effectively within your first month. You can then start adding in DPS boats into fleets with meta4 guns and you will only be at most 50% of a top-of-the-line T2 fit ship of the same type.

In solo/small group combat however... every little SP you have counts. Not having one level 5 skill, 5% more shields, for example is not bad. You can still pull off a win with good flying and tactics. However, you start adding up all the lvl 5 skills you don't have, Weapon Spec 5, Gunnery Support Skills 5, Navigation 5, Tanking 5.... and soon you have 10% less tank than your opponent and 25% less DPS. You'll lose every single fight that you don't completely hard counter your rival. (TD Condor vs AB Merlin)

To even have a remote chance at winning frigate fights, you need at least 2 months of SP under your belt. Need another 2 more months to start winning fights against bad fits/bad players. Only now, 6 months since I started do I have confidence to take (almost) any t1 frigate/dessie with my frigate or dessie. And I still have only a few lvl 5 support skills (and not very many lvl 4 skills for that matter)



It would make the game a LOT more accessible if people started off with just some core skills trained up. More than they are now. Maybe just a months worth of SP for new players. Have a couple pre-set combinations for new players that they can pick for their SP. Combat SP puts it into Engineering V/Electronics V and one of the guns/rockets V for their race. Mining would put a month of SP into mining skills, and so on.

It would give very little headway into the world of Eve with years and years of SP, but it would help new players get into the game a lot more easier.
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#772 - 2013-09-05 22:58:27 UTC
Sorry for double post... but..

Aivo Dresden wrote:
SP is just fine. It literally takes a few hours to fit a frigate with guns, a web/scram and go PvPing. You can get a cruiser with medium guns in what 24h-48h? I think people complaining about this are under the impression it's the skill point difference costing them fights. Lol.



It IS the SP difference costing them fights. 5-10% DPS in terms of two Cruiser level skills or from Weapon Spec 5s will lose fights. The capacitor kicking out after 5 MWD cycles instead of being able to Permarun a MWD with long point will lose you fights/kills. The armor rep bonus on Incursii and repping 15% less than your opponent because of GalFrig 5 and Repair Systems 5 will cost you your life.

Being able to fly a Cruiser and use medium guns is not the same as being able to use a Cruiser and medium guns. A veteran pilot will be able to out-DPS you in a T1 frigate... and will probably be able to kill you even if he sits in front of you without moving.

I was in RvB for a little bit and got bored immediately. The fleets are huge and numbers of ships on both sides are really the only determining factor. I don't know if you have any experience out of RvB but you just can't go 'PvP'ing in a Thorax that's 2 days old in low/null sec and expect to kill anything. (A Venture could probably kill you)
Ressiv
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#773 - 2013-09-05 23:07:21 UTC
...except that small gang pvp remains an option that is perfectly available to a bunch of 3 month old toons.
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#774 - 2013-09-06 00:21:33 UTC
Ressiv wrote:
...except that small gang pvp remains an option that is perfectly available to a bunch of 3 month old toons.


Anybody can win if they throw enough bodies at the problem. But you get even remotely close to even odds and you'll lose. Every time.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#775 - 2013-09-06 16:33:58 UTC
I have only played since Feb. My Wife started much later. But we both were able to do things right from the get go. I was slow to get into PvP mostly because of RL. Now Sometimes my wife and I rat in low and null sec. We have fun. We die a lot. We don't sweat it.

Recently i have been getting into bigger fleets. The single biggest factor so far in fleets is not skill book skills, but "real" how to fly/shoot/runaway type skills. You can't expect to be as good as someone who PvPs for the last 3 years in a week.

There are some things that when you first start are frustrating. For me it was finding stuff to fit my ship with. Or ammo. 10 jumps for ammo close to some of the rookie uni that i was at. That was time i didn't really like to spend. My wife was similar. But once you learn about trade hubs, that sorts itself out a bit.

As for the only 1 out of 4 stay past a trial account? Well i think you will find that is true for most MMO's. And eve is a bit different from the others. In a good way too.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#776 - 2013-09-06 18:13:15 UTC
The first time I was in an alliance fleet, I didn't know what the heck I was doing. The only "useful" ship I could pilot was a Stealth Bomber, and we were going on a lowsec roam, i.e. I figured I'd be pretty useless.

The FC was a very patient man, made me forward scout, and answered all my noob questions on fleet comms so that everyone could learn. It was one of the most challenging jobs I've ever had in EVE.

I had an absolute blast. I think we all did. We didn't kill anything, and ended-up losing a few ships, but there was plenty of laughter and no raging on comms after the skirmishes I helped get us into.

Every ship matters.
Ressiv
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#777 - 2013-09-06 18:27:55 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Ressiv wrote:
...except that small gang pvp remains an option that is perfectly available to a bunch of 3 month old toons.


Anybody can win if they throw enough bodies at the problem. But you get even remotely close to even odds and you'll lose. Every time.

Same goes for all5 skills, so 'even odds' in this comparisson is an illusion. If your target is an older toon, likely to have 5's where you have 4's or 3's, then dont try to outperform him in a similar fit ... adapt to his weakness.

Even odds does not mean: match my fitting and playstyle.
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#778 - 2013-09-06 20:20:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Baron' Soontir Fel
Ressiv wrote:

Same goes for all5 skills, so 'even odds' in this comparisson is an illusion. If your target is an older toon, likely to have 5's where you have 4's or 3's, then dont try to outperform him in a similar fit ... adapt to his weakness.

Even odds does not mean: match my fitting and playstyle.


Have you tried using a frigate (or higher) with low SP? Even a counter can wtfpwn you when his skills outshine your own. If three Incursus (lvl 5 peeps) came across your 6 man Merlin/Kestrel gang, they'd slaughter you. Maybe if they were facing three lvl5 Kestrels, they'd get their butts kicked in, but when you have such low SP, dps, and tank, there's no way you'd be able to do any damage whatsoever.


I don't think new pilots should be jumping into Cruisers and stuff immediately. They need to take their time and slowly get into the game as well. I just think making the initial jump of getting to PvP would be tremendously easier if they started with the core Fitting Skills (Engineering/Electronics) to V, One weapons group to V (Rockets, Hybrids, etc), and one Frigate to V. It's about one month's worth of training, but it would help people not feel entirely useless when they first start and subsequently quit.



P.S. anybody can +1 (scout low-sec). You're not doing anything but using your eyes which have no relation to your SP.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#779 - 2013-09-06 20:34:36 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
P.S. anybody can +1 (scout low-sec). You're not doing anything but using your eyes which have no relation to your SP.

...so what you're saying is that people can perform useful roles with low SP while they train up for other roles?
Ressiv
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#780 - 2013-09-06 20:41:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Ressiv
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:

Have you tried using a frigate (or higher) with low SP?

Didnt we all ? Roll

Quote:
Even a counter can wtfpwn you when his skills outshine your own. If three Incursus (lvl 5 peeps) came across your 6 man Merlin/Kestrel gang, they'd slaughter you. Maybe if they were facing three lvl5 Kestrels, they'd get their butts kicked in, but when you have such low SP, dps, and tank, there's no way you'd be able to do any damage whatsoever.

So you can think of a scenario where they would all die ... does that make pvp impossible for them ? No, it means they have to learn one important skill very fast: learn to pick your fights and how to run when needed.

Quote:
I just think making the initial jump of getting to PvP would be tremendously easier if they started with the core Fitting Skills (Engineering/Electronics) to V, One weapons group to V (Rockets, Hybrids, etc), and one Frigate to V. It's about one month's worth of training, but it would help people not feel entirely useless when they first start and subsequently quit.

I heard a great answer to that .. let me quote it:

Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
I don't think new pilots should be jumping into Cruisers and stuff immediately. They need to take their time and slowly get into the game as well.


Your suggestion would mean they would fasttrack to BC in no-time. Also .. throwaway alts should not be microwave ready in 10 seconds.