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[Odyssey 1.1] Command Ships

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Doed
Tyrfing Industries
#1241 - 2013-08-11 15:47:20 UTC
Give Claymore a dmg bonus (7.5% or so) instead of one of the RoF bonuses and un-nerf the mass on the NH, it's slow enough live at it is now.
Gustav Mannfred
Summer of Mumuit
Remember Mumuit
#1242 - 2013-08-11 16:22:54 UTC
Increase the damage bonus on the vulture to 20% per level, to give her 10 effective turrets. (around 8% less damage, then an astarte does on tq)

i'm REALY miss the old stuff. 

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=24183
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1243 - 2013-08-11 16:27:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
Doed wrote:
...... un-nerf the mass on the NH, it's slow enough live at it is now.



+1

(i did ask for response why nighthawk was made slower but fozzie sadly didnt respond.
i can see no reason to make the nh slower)
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1244 - 2013-08-11 20:36:19 UTC
Wrayeth wrote:
[...] As such, I'd like to see you re-run those numbers with tackle included. I'm sure they'll change significantly and show you that the Nighthawk, in its current 7/5/5 configuration, is pretty weak.


http://i.imgur.com/5dp9KGc.png
I'm not sure if just a point is 'tackle', but again (linking itself + siege mindlink) it seems rather acceptable. Can switch the EM-hardener for a EM-resistance amp to mount a third link. As long as it's around tanking and hitting, I really can't see an issue with the nighthawk.
Snape Dieboldmotor
Minotaur Congress
#1245 - 2013-08-11 20:54:54 UTC
I really like these ships.

As stated by others, the shield equivalent of the Damnation is an obvious hole.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1246 - 2013-08-11 21:16:04 UTC
Snape Dieboldmotor wrote:
I really like these ships.

As stated by others, the shield equivalent of the Damnation is an obvious hole.


A role that would be perfectly filled by the Vulture by removing a optimal range bonus for a shield HP bonus

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1247 - 2013-08-12 02:39:29 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Doed wrote:
...... un-nerf the mass on the NH, it's slow enough live at it is now.



+1

(i did ask for response why nighthawk was made slower but fozzie sadly didnt respond.
i can see no reason to make the nh slower)


NH was clearly op..... Pirate
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1248 - 2013-08-12 03:37:59 UTC
I'm tired about talking and reading about these ships. Just give us the final stats so I can make plans. :(
Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
#1249 - 2013-08-12 03:41:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Wrayeth
Lloyd Roses wrote:

http://i.imgur.com/5dp9KGc.png
I'm not sure if just a point is 'tackle', but again (linking itself + siege mindlink) it seems rather acceptable. Can switch the EM-hardener for a EM-resistance amp to mount a third link. As long as it's around tanking and hitting, I really can't see an issue with the nighthawk.



I have a couple of issues with this. First, tech II rigs were used, which are far too expensive to run on run-of-the-mill ships. If you're faction/deadspace fitting it, that's one thing, but tech II rigs add too much to the cost for standard use ships.

Second, you're factoring a ganglink into the stats. The idea of the change was to make them effective combatants with or without ganglinks. If you have to use a ganglink to give the ship comparable stats to the other command ships without links, then there's an issue.

With such glaring flaws, I'm not sure why you made the argument you posted. All I can think is that you wish to push people into a false belief that the nighthawk's current state is okay. I can't see any reason for that aside from an anti-Caldari bias that some posters on these forums show, mostly because they look at Caldari ships as the carebear's ship of choice and they hate carebears. I can't say if this applies to you or not, but it's all I can think of at the moment.
Selexim
DNS Requiem
#1250 - 2013-08-12 03:48:33 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Command Ship model changes


Can we see the new models?
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1251 - 2013-08-12 03:48:47 UTC
Wrayeth wrote:
I have a couple of issues with this. First, tech II rigs were used, which are far too expensive to run on run-of-the-mill ships. If you're faction/deadspace fitting it, that's one thing, but tech II rigs add too much to the cost for standard use ships.


As much as I'm sick of talking about these ships I will say that tech II rigs aren't near as expensive as they use to be. Tech II medium extender rigs are around 30m each, which is a lot more reasonable to put on a ~250m ship.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1252 - 2013-08-12 04:00:07 UTC
Gunna chime into echo what others have said.

It is cool that you're adding some dedicated command ships.

But a lot of people, my self included, don't like Losing the Uber-Hac lines for all factions.

Leaving The Sleipnir, Nighthawk, Absolution and Astarte as more of a HAC than gang link ***** would be nice.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1253 - 2013-08-12 08:39:42 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:

Drones are not short range.
Please compare to a rail astarte.


Clearly sir, you have only used heavy drones in PVE.

The are absolutely short range only. You absolutely have to have webbed your target for them to even to stay near him, and in a small-scale skirmish they are the absolutely target of choice for your enemy since he know that once they are dead you can't hurt him at all. Thus, you have to be within 2.5km of them at all times so you can recall them the moment they receive the slightest brush of damage.

Sentry drones are medium range (aka railguns), or long range on a ship with the specific range bonus (the Dominix).

Unfortunately, sentry drones suck (to a degree) for skirmish PVP (this ship's apparent role) because once you've deployed them you either can't move (i.e. not skirmishing) or you have to kiss goodbye to 5M isk and half your offensive capability when you leave them behind.


Its a command ship, you are in a gang.
Maybe your tackle ships should have scram/web.

Drones damage is going to be balanced at max effective range along with other long systems such as missile , which btw are also more effective if your target is webbed down.

Asking for blaster levels of damage from a drone boat that can if it wishes apply its damage from 50km away is unreasonable.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1254 - 2013-08-12 10:38:01 UTC
Wrayeth wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:

http://i.imgur.com/5dp9KGc.png
I'm not sure if just a point is 'tackle', but again (linking itself + siege mindlink) it seems rather acceptable. Can switch the EM-hardener for a EM-resistance amp to mount a third link. As long as it's around tanking and hitting, I really can't see an issue with the nighthawk.



I have a couple of issues with this. First, tech II rigs were used, which are far too expensive to run on run-of-the-mill ships. If you're faction/deadspace fitting it, that's one thing, but tech II rigs add too much to the cost for standard use ships.

Second, you're factoring a ganglink into the stats. The idea of the change was to make them effective combatants with or without ganglinks. If you have to use a ganglink to give the ship comparable stats to the other command ships without links, then there's an issue.

With such glaring flaws, I'm not sure why you made the argument you posted. All I can think is that you wish to push people into a false belief that the nighthawk's current state is okay. I can't see any reason for that aside from an anti-Caldari bias that some posters on these forums show, mostly because they look at Caldari ships as the carebear's ship of choice and they hate carebears. I can't say if this applies to you or not, but it's all I can think of at the moment.


So sry, let me go detail by detail. I'm a pewpew pilot. I shoot ships that shoot back. I'm using sleipnir/claymore/astarte on a regular basis and sometimes absolutions (plate + dualrep, MAR+AMAR, pure buffer fit), rarely any of the others, basically I pretty much am used to flying T2 BCs. As such, let me tell you that the nighthawk is really nice. If you're complaining that the HAM-dps of 650 using NAVY is not enough, you clearly are a one-eyed person. Other CS are mostly way worse dps wise, are worse ehp wise. So if you're complaining that 110k EHP, or 140k+ running the links you will fit anyways, is bad or not enough, than you have been pampered with loldrakes for way to long. It's a good step that devs are taking the emergency brake on that shieldtank, cause the buffer on such a ship (factoring passive recharge) makes dem solo-capabilities and smallscale situations plainly hilarious. Anyone asking for a ridiculous shieldbuffer because armor got one aswell: Dude, when do reps land? Really, answer that one and you see why 190k EHP shieldtank is favorable to a 280k armortank. Like 9 out of 10 cases.

Know what your uberdamnation got a buffer before links? Ye, me neither. Cause it normally has links running, so the stats behind that aren't that important, important is the state it enters the battlefield. And I give a rats ass about how well it is designed for pve, it's not a dread, not a carrier and not a rapier... So I doubt it will make big bucks anyways. It's a CS, they lose the pve-race to any failfit T1 BS.

And what is deadspace/faction about that nighthawk? 60 mil in t2 rigs is all but pimp. If you are too poor to not even afford those basically dirtcheap 10% extra-hp, pls don't jeopardize your OP over such small amounts. It's 60 mil, that's nothing on a ship costing almost 400mil on it's own with hull/mindlink/other modules.
When you are piloting your fleet's links, I would really appreciate that person to make all those expenses that bother none but increase the chance of links not being pushed off the field. Mean, CS gone, tank drops by some 40%. Since Faction Invulns are not worth the money, faction LSEs don't add anything of value and TS PDS are way overpriced for the gain, t2 rigs is the last resort to enhance your survivability even further.

If you really take offense in how a normal fit looks, or that you cannot afford those rigs over and over (sry bro, but I don't care about +- 60 mil)...

... Then please tell straight away that you can't carebear hard enough in that ship, instead of using excuses to obfuscate a ship's clear strength, citing it's advantages as disadvantages. Final word: It's a shieldtanked CS, so forget about the point. You now got a 180+k EHP megadrake.
Darling Hassasin
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#1255 - 2013-08-12 11:36:05 UTC
So most CMs have their dps increased but the Astarte loses more than one effective turret? Wait what?
Jureth22
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1256 - 2013-08-12 12:11:55 UTC
how about a role bonus for all command ships just like assault frigs and hacs? ex : 50% reduction in signature when using mwd or anything
Eldrith Jhandar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1257 - 2013-08-12 12:20:33 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:

Drones are not short range.
Please compare to a rail astarte.


Clearly sir, you have only used heavy drones in PVE.

The are absolutely short range only. You absolutely have to have webbed your target for them to even to stay near him, and in a small-scale skirmish they are the absolutely target of choice for your enemy since he know that once they are dead you can't hurt him at all. Thus, you have to be within 2.5km of them at all times so you can recall them the moment they receive the slightest brush of damage.

Sentry drones are medium range (aka railguns), or long range on a ship with the specific range bonus (the Dominix).

Unfortunately, sentry drones suck (to a degree) for skirmish PVP (this ship's apparent role) because once you've deployed them you either can't move (i.e. not skirmishing) or you have to kiss goodbye to 5M isk and half your offensive capability when you leave them behind.


Its a command ship, you are in a gang.
Maybe your tackle ships should have scram/web.

Drones damage is going to be balanced at max effective range along with other long systems such as missile , which btw are also more effective if your target is webbed down.

Asking for blaster levels of damage from a drone boat that can if it wishes apply its damage from 50km away is unreasonable.



The eos in this proposed conditions a heavy drone ship. Aka ogres bersekers etc
Not sentries, te domi is a sentry boat, it gets tracking and range for them
The eos gets speed and tracking to heavies, which even with this change go about 1.3-1.4km/s
Which is rediculously slow if you want to apply damage to something 20, 30, 40km+
Further more heavies simply cannot apply damage to things that arnt webbed, they won't catch up as they orbit too slowly and will get out of range every 5 seconds

The eos is a close range brawling drone ship, not a kiter or sniper, it's resiculous they took a slot away form the eos while giving double 10% damage bonuses out like candy
The eos needs to be brought bak into line with the other cs's
Leave it's bonuses as is and make it
5 highs 4 blasters
5 mids
7 lows
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1258 - 2013-08-12 12:29:15 UTC
Darling Hassasin wrote:
So most CMs have their dps increased but the Astarte loses more than one effective turret? Wait what?


This has been updated in the newest proposal. Live astarte is 10.9 effective turrets, the current proposal has it at 11, wtih 2 spare highs for capstuff/missiles.

Currently proposed Astarte is much much better than the one on TQ.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1259 - 2013-08-12 13:55:26 UTC
Eldrith Jhandar wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:

Drones are not short range.
Please compare to a rail astarte.


Clearly sir, you have only used heavy drones in PVE.

The are absolutely short range only. You absolutely have to have webbed your target for them to even to stay near him, and in a small-scale skirmish they are the absolutely target of choice for your enemy since he know that once they are dead you can't hurt him at all. Thus, you have to be within 2.5km of them at all times so you can recall them the moment they receive the slightest brush of damage.

Sentry drones are medium range (aka railguns), or long range on a ship with the specific range bonus (the Dominix).

Unfortunately, sentry drones suck (to a degree) for skirmish PVP (this ship's apparent role) because once you've deployed them you either can't move (i.e. not skirmishing) or you have to kiss goodbye to 5M isk and half your offensive capability when you leave them behind.


Its a command ship, you are in a gang.
Maybe your tackle ships should have scram/web.

Drones damage is going to be balanced at max effective range along with other long systems such as missile , which btw are also more effective if your target is webbed down.

Asking for blaster levels of damage from a drone boat that can if it wishes apply its damage from 50km away is unreasonable.



The eos in this proposed conditions a heavy drone ship. Aka ogres bersekers etc
Not sentries, te domi is a sentry boat, it gets tracking and range for them
The eos gets speed and tracking to heavies, which even with this change go about 1.3-1.4km/s
Which is rediculously slow if you want to apply damage to something 20, 30, 40km+
Further more heavies simply cannot apply damage to things that arnt webbed, they won't catch up as they orbit too slowly and will get out of range every 5 seconds

The eos is a close range brawling drone ship, not a kiter or sniper, it's resiculous they took a slot away form the eos while giving double 10% damage bonuses out like candy
The eos needs to be brought bak into line with the other cs's
Leave it's bonuses as is and make it
5 highs 4 blasters
5 mids
7 lows





All the cs ships have 10 mid/low slots for damage modding and tank.
Why would EOS get an extra 2 ?

Note before complaining about fewer highs that fewer high slots are a consequnce of the Damage from drones which dont need highs like turrets/bays

I think berserkers approaching 2k/s with speed mod will get firepower down at range no problem at all espcially assigned to tackle af's its gonna be rapidley lethal to non brick bc and down.

Remember CS are no solopwnmobiles.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1260 - 2013-08-12 14:13:26 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:

Remember CS are no solopwnmobiles.


Current TQ Sleipnir/Astarte would like to disagree. Future CS will completely disagree with that ♥