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[Odyssey 1.1] Warfare Links, Mindlinks, Gang bonuses

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Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#661 - 2013-08-09 11:51:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys, I want to make it clear that the weapons timer for links is not for Odyssey 1.1. It's a tool we have in our back pocket for if it ends up being needed. I won't rule out using it depending on how things go in the future, but we're also not dead set on enabling it.
Not wanting to flog this thankfully-dead horse, but what criteria do you perceive would make it needed? As I can't see how it doesn't hugely discriminate against brawling/armour setups, because kiting/shield gangs can keep their links on while running to range on-grid, even if some fleetmates are tackled & deaggressing under logi on a gate/station.

Also it's totally stupid to consider using a link T3 for this brawler scenario while the SP loss mechanic remains.

Isn't it enough with the existing weapon timers to have to ensure you remain 2500m or less from a system-wide beacon while potentially being shot, heavy neuted and jammed+damped and held by long tackle outside of your weapons' effective range(unless possibly in battleships)? Inheriting this timer (& suspect/crim flags), as logi do, sounds the only sane game mechanic choice.
Miriam Sasko
Matari Exodus
#662 - 2013-08-09 11:54:14 UTC
As has been said by others, the one minute timer is the worst eve dev idea I've seen so far. It precludes linked gangs from going to the edge of what their setup can do, because once they need them the most, their links will fail them. Force multipliers that only work while you are in a comfortable situation anyway are ******** (the main gripe I also have with ECM, btw)

If link ships sitting unassaultable on gates and stations are such a big deal (never really encountered them myself since 2010 or so), make active links give you a suspect timer. I'm certain some sort of lore reason can be found, and it would solve many of the highsec shenanigans as well as make it harder to do this in lowsec.

Latest Video: The Graf Spee Legacy

Mr Doctor
Sex Machineguns
#663 - 2013-08-09 12:06:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Doctor
What if weapon timer was only applicable to T3s and T3s give system wide bonuses.
Command ships have no weapons timer but are restricted to only boosting ships on grid.

If youre on grid you'll mostly be fighting anyway and the T3 having the weapons timer would give them a bit of a problem hitting gates if they arent careful enough. Ofcourse, it wouldnt actually have that big an effect on T3s, just the occational lolgank on a gate/station as it trys to jump/dock.

This would also keep the flavour of T3s being general (less sucsessfully boosting but boosting the whole system) and command ships being focused (to the current grid with their higher bonuses)
Axloth Okiah
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#664 - 2013-08-09 15:00:24 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys, I want to make it clear that the weapons timer for links is not for Odyssey 1.1. It's a tool we have in our back pocket for if it ends up being needed. I won't rule out using it depending on how things go in the future, but we're also not dead set on enabling it.
Please enable it. Giving boosters timer so they cant just sit on undock and be immune is awesome. TBH it would be the best change of all listed here.
Yankunytjatjara
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#665 - 2013-08-09 16:05:40 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys, I want to make it clear that the weapons timer for links is not for Odyssey 1.1. It's a tool we have in our back pocket for if it ends up being needed. I won't rule out using it depending on how things go in the future, but we're also not dead set on enabling it.

What's the feasibility of implementing the aggro inheritance a la remote rep instead?

You mentioned elsewhere performance issues, but thinking about it, there could be a solution that has no additional software cycles - that I can think of:

1. every time a ship in a fleet gets an aggro flag, its fleet inherits the same flag (no checks)
2. every time 1. happens, the fleet active boosters inherit the same flags (no checks)

That's it. This means of course some development - as the fleet object will need to have the flags added to it, and obviously the calls - but performance wise it doesn't add any aggro checks.

Note that as a result, the weapons flag is inherited whenever a boosted fleet member gets it, basically getting the best of both!

Apologies for the armschair designing...

My solo pvp video: Yankunytjude... That attitude! Solo/small gang proposal: Ship Velocity Vectors

Yankunytjatjara
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#666 - 2013-08-09 16:06:46 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys, I want to make it clear that the weapons timer for links is not for Odyssey 1.1. It's a tool we have in our back pocket for if it ends up being needed. I won't rule out using it depending on how things go in the future, but we're also not dead set on enabling it.

PS don't forget to add them buggers on killmails - to troll the "soloers" Blink

My solo pvp video: Yankunytjude... That attitude! Solo/small gang proposal: Ship Velocity Vectors

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#667 - 2013-08-09 17:06:10 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys, I want to make it clear that the weapons timer for links is not for Odyssey 1.1. It's a tool we have in our back pocket for if it ends up being needed. I won't rule out using it depending on how things go in the future, but we're also not dead set on enabling it.


thats very disappointing. You could enable it at least till they are all on grid.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#668 - 2013-08-09 19:28:11 UTC
After 10 Years i dont think we need a "quickfix" anymore, take your time and make it right CCP.
GothicNightmare
Amazing Super Slackers
Requiem Eternal
#669 - 2013-08-09 20:50:14 UTC
As a very avid command ship pilot, I find this change to weapons timer to be a bit... harsh. I fly vultures and damnations on grid with the fleet as I despise boosting off grid. I find myself asking "why would my fleet risk their ships if I won't risk mine". There comes a time though you make the call to dagress and fall back, and needing to shut the links off really makes the already losing side (I saw this stated before) heavily disadvantaged.
If anything, I want an overheat option to burst tank (something with a really high burn rate for emergency overheats only, not prolonged burns like guns and hardeners) to give my deagressing fleet a fighting chance to not be completely slaughtered when waving the white flag and giving the field to the other fleet. If I overheat for a few cycles and i dont see my modules burn out and shut off, well then I don't belong in a CS, but causing the already beaten and wounded fleet to be more vulnerable and a mere mop-up... nah.

As I said before I've never been a fan of off grid boosting, just seems a bit cowardly to me especially from (as before mentioned by others) the virtually unscannable cloaky T3. If you turn on your tactical overlay and hover the mouse over a module, it shows how far that module will reach on the overlay, lets do that for command links. An invisible barrier persay that if you reach the edge of that bubble forces the fc to chance going outside link range to chase targets or pull back and stay in link range, now your booster has to be mobile with the fleet to keep the link field with the fleet.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#670 - 2013-08-10 00:28:43 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
After 10 Years i dont think we need a "quickfix" anymore, take your time and make it right CCP.

I don't see how this is a "quickfix". This is part of a series of changes. if you read the OP:

CCP Fozzie wrote:
"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." - Laozi
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We believe that the package of changes we've put together will be a significant step forward for the game, but it's definitely not the end of iteration on these features.
These show that they are indeed taking their time and making the proper steps (hopefully) to pave the way for more features along the way.

My favorite example is the change in obtaining T2 mindlinks. They are making it generally cheaper and easier to get them, which makes it more viable to put a mindlinked clone in the fray without worrying about higher exspenses.

There's no definitive way to just throw a huge feature/balance/change into the game and do it prperly all in one try. In fact that makes it worse in almost every case.

Be patient compadre, good things come to those who wait
Kristen Andelare
Abacus Industries Group
Aerodyne Collective
#671 - 2013-08-10 01:19:01 UTC
Just a word to all you posters who are in favor of getting rid of Off-Grid boosting altogether, and/or inherited flagging for the booster. You are being very short-sighted.

Don't forget the other major users of boosters: Mining fleets with Orcas and Rorquals.

If you eliminate off-grid boosting entirely, the Rorqual is about as useful as a basket of left-handed screwdrivers. No one flies these ships into belts. The Orca will still get used to boost, in highsec only. Sad, sad situation that would be.

If inherited flagging becomes a reality, say goodbye to the Orca too. No one wants to allow their Orca to be at risk that someone in the fleet flips a can and they inherit a flag that allows everyone in system to shoot their ship. Boosting is a passive activity that does not require targeting. If should NEVER inherit flags of possibly unseen recipients of the boosts.

Now, if you make the exception (like CCP announced they would for POS shields) that only mining boosts can be off-grid, that seems like a good solution to the issue of OGB. Let's just leave inherited flags off the table, it is not a solid solution, when you consider ALL the ramifications, not just the ones to PvP.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#672 - 2013-08-10 01:26:50 UTC
Kristen Andelare wrote:
Just a word to all you posters who are in favor of getting rid of Off-Grid boosting altogether, and/or inherited flagging for the booster. You are being very short-sighted.

Don't forget the other major users of boosters: Mining fleets with Orcas and Rorquals.

If you eliminate off-grid boosting entirely, the Rorqual is about as useful as a basket of left-handed screwdrivers. No one flies these ships into belts. The Orca will still get used to boost, in highsec only. Sad, sad situation that would be.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Warfare links (other than mining links) can no longer be activated inside a starbase forcefield
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We do intend to move mining links out of forcefields someday, but we'll want to rebalance the Orca and Rorqual first to make putting them on grid more viable first.

I own both an Orca and a Rorq and I have no problem with bringing them on grid if they are fixed properly.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#673 - 2013-08-10 05:09:52 UTC
Mingja wrote:
the easiest fix for links would've been to make them light a spot in space like cynos do.

That way, most problems would solve at once - the booster would have to be active and everybody else could just kill it.

But it's good that CCP doesn't take the easy route, and we all have to wait for a year or so till they do a real fix.....


BS that would be more fun

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Tiberu Stundrif
Nifty Idustries
Rate My Ticks
#674 - 2013-08-10 09:21:05 UTC
CCP Fozzie,

What are we going to do with Titans? The ability to use 5 simulatneous links is now compeltely pointless as you can't use them in a POS. This whole thing is yet ANOTHER nerf to the MOST-nerfed Ship-class in the past years.

Granted, Titans needed to be nerfed, but now there is only 1 role for Titans and that's bridging. As we all know, Doomsday is a module very rarely used in this day and age.

Thoughts?

Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#675 - 2013-08-10 17:25:25 UTC
Tiberu Stundrif wrote:
Thoughts?


Death2allsupers

No sig.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#676 - 2013-08-10 19:58:13 UTC
Tiberu Stundrif wrote:
CCP Fozzie,

What are we going to do with Titans? The ability to use 5 simulatneous links is now compeltely pointless as you can't use them in a POS. This whole thing is yet ANOTHER nerf to the MOST-nerfed Ship-class in the past years.

Granted, Titans needed to be nerfed, but now there is only 1 role for Titans and that's bridging. As we all know, Doomsday is a module very rarely used in this day and age.

Thoughts?

Remove the jump bridge ability

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#677 - 2013-08-10 21:20:57 UTC
Tiberu Stundrif wrote:
...Thoughts?

If my wildest dreams come true and links ability to boost entire grids/fleets is removed, then Titan's and Mom's can become true fleet boosters as the only ones able to apply bonuses to more than 10-20 people at a time.
Hell, when the tiericide train pulls into its last stop and Titan's get some sexxor our jobs will be to insure that the current hull bonuses are updated to be more in tune with what Eve looks like today .. doubly so if eWar is sorted and links are on grid by that time.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#678 - 2013-08-10 21:33:04 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys, I want to make it clear that the weapons timer for links is not for Odyssey 1.1. It's a tool we have in our back pocket for if it ends up being needed. I won't rule out using it depending on how things go in the future, but we're also not dead set on enabling it.



>=[

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#679 - 2013-08-11 06:26:27 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We're planning to make active gang links provide a 60 second weapons timer to their owner, so that you can't just sit on a station or gate and boost all day long.


B========================>

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys, I want to make it clear that the weapons timer for links is not for Odyssey 1.1. It's a tool we have in our back pocket for if it ends up being needed. I won't rule out using it depending on how things go in the future, but we're also not dead set on enabling it.


B==>


All this QQ...really. If you are stupid enough to leave a boosting T3 on a gate or station and it gets a 60s timer, and you cannot dock in time, then poor you. This will only matter for people who currently leave their link alt idling on station and don't look at it, ever, because it gets protection and can instadock.

Us carrier pilots who use lowsec would like to talk to you about supercap hotdrops. You don't aggro on undock because you could get dropped on by a Nyx and lose your ship. it will be exactly the same with the boosting alts and a 60s aggro timer.

For the Command Ship pilots, if you are doing it right you will be shooting up until the time you drop links. There's no difference except you will need to factor this in when jumping gate to aggro the bait laid out for you.

This needs enacting now.
Incan Descence
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#680 - 2013-08-11 16:57:52 UTC
You might wanna change the OP to be in synch with the command ships thread. No more static 15 5 boost.