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[Odyssey 1.1] Warfare Links, Mindlinks, Gang bonuses

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Varesk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#261 - 2013-08-01 21:01:05 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Lexar Mundi wrote:
Mining links should not be given special treatment...

Give them an ORE battlecruiser size ship to run links on or something but to let them run links inside shield is pretty lame.


We do intend to move mining links out of force fields someday, but we'll want to rebalanced the Orca and Rorqual first to make putting them on grid more viable first.


They dont need to be on gird just in a safe spot or orbiting a pos shield. Could you wait until you fix the Rorqual/Orca and allow Command ships sit inside the POS?

Also will you fix the boosting mechanics so that the entire fleet will receive this bonuses before you make them live on TQ? As it is now the Wing Commanders don't always get the bonuses due to bugs.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#262 - 2013-08-01 21:03:24 UTC
Beidorion eldwardan wrote:
Damnation:
Amarr Battlecruiser skill bonuses:
4% bonus to all Armor Resistances
10% bonus to Heavy Assault Missile and Heavy Missile velocity
Command Ships skill bonuses:
10% bonus to all Armor hitpoints
10% bonus to Heavy Assault Missile and Heavy Missile damage (Was link bonus)
Fixed Bonus:
Can fit up to three Warfare Link modules, 15% bonus to strength of Armored Warfare and Information Warfare links
Slot layout: 7 H, 4 M, 6 L , 2 turrets (-2), 5 Launchers
Fittings: 1300(-290) PWG, 500(+25) CPU <--- here is the herf
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 3500(+37) / 5000(+395) / 4300(-24)
Base shield resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 0 / 20 / 70 / 87.5
Base armor resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 50 / 35 / 62.5 / 80
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 3375 / 750s / 4.5
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 150 / 0.7(-0.004) / 13500000 / 13.10s(-0.08)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 (+25) / 100 (+75)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km (+20) / 210 / 7(+1)
Sensor strength: 22 Radar (+6)
Signature radius: 265
Cargo capacity: 645


so this means that with your so called fitting buff with the 100 powergrid reduction per module really means that a damnation only get another 10 powergrid total. nice ninja nerf there butt heads.
could you not stop the sugar coating nerfs please have the balls to stand by the crap your body ( the company ) makes and stop with the politically correct terms call a donkey by its proper name an A + double SS

ps this forum NEEED a dislike post botton SO bad
Your posts are so comical I don't know where to begin.

First off, the link modules are having their PG REDUCED by 100, so given that you fit 3 links to the ship, you're actually gaining a net +10 grid (3 links x 100g = 300 - 290 (pg reduction) = 10 PG remaining. I fit a Damnation just yesterday that has 478k ehp with links + mindlink, and guess what! I still have 308 PG left over, and that's with fitting 3x links and 1600mm plate. If anything, CPU is what holds the fittings back on these ships, not PG.

Second, you're never going to get 15.8 mil sp refunded because your special snowflake OGB likes to stay POSed up while you do "solo" pvp. /Gasp! You *may* have to leave the immunity of being inside of a POS shield to provide significant boosts to your fleet or gang operations. Closer, but not an ideal form, to working as intended.

Thirdly, if you think that large fleet fights hinge absolutely on OGB, then I don't even know how to respond to that but to say that statement alone just validates that you have no concept of why large fleets happen--and I can tell you, they don't hinge on having boosts. Fights are going to happen as they're going to happen. Boosts make fights easier, improve logi, etc., but they don't turn the tide of a fight like a Supercap fleet or similar. So don't start being melodramatic to get your senseless point across, especially because the point isn't even founded in Eve-reality.

"Hey, sorry gais, we can't attack 6-DVT because our booster has to orbit the POS shield. Cancel the fleet; everyone go home."

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Bocephus Morgen
The Suicide Kings
Deepwater Hooligans
#263 - 2013-08-01 21:14:09 UTC
I'm cool with the changes, but would like to point out that this is a buff to stealth bombers. Higher sigs and lower tanks will make it even easier to kill fleets now.

The shield BS fleet was already endangered, it will go extinct with these changes.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#264 - 2013-08-01 21:39:17 UTC
Talking about CCP
jones bones wrote:

Their numbers are ******* wrong and ******** anyways. Crosspoast from FHC:

The following are all Lvl 5s and no implants:

My Incursus without Legion links: 5k EHP, 89 DPS Tank from AAR
My Incursus with Legion links: 7k EHP, 205 DPS Tank from AAR

That's a 40% bonus in EHP and 130% bonus in active tank. That's ridiculous. I could see 10% bonus in EHP and 25% bonus in active tank.

My condor without Loki links: 24km point range, 3618m/s velocity
My condor with Loki links:36.7km point range, 4705m/s velocity

That's a 53% bonus in point range and 30% bonus in velocity. Keeping it real yo.

My Hawk without Tengu links: 6.3k EHP, 189 DPS Tank
My Hawk with Tengu links: 8.7k EHP, 411 DPS Tank

That's a 39% bonus in EHP and 120% bonus in active tank. I've got a DPS tank higher than any frig/dessie can even output.

Links are so overpowered the concept of fighting without them is alien to us.
This isn't "We have a 10% edge on tanks thanks to HERO ITSMEHCK in the Damnation!"
This is "We have a 30% bonus in EHP and a 100% bonus in reps thanks to ::RANDOM COWARD ALT:: sitting in a safe somewhere in system."
******** game mechanic is ********. I haven't lost an Incursus in weeks because nothing I engage can kill me. It's awesome.


I just think this needs to be posted here.

The problem with links really isn't as much on grid/off grid as people like to make it out to be.

The real problem is the effect, which is still to high with these mild changes. Even if links only increased your over all tank by 50% instead of 130% people would still use the **** out of them in fleets. They just wouldn't be worth as much in solo/small gang pvp.

What really needs to happen to make links not be **** isn't to bring them on grid (although that would be great as well) its a proper nerf to those ridiculous bonuses.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Aznwithbeard
OMGROFLSTOMP
#265 - 2013-08-01 21:39:20 UTC
Why does it not surprise me that CCP nerfed all the useful links (siege, skirmish, armor) and kept the ewar crap strong?



+1 for taking boosting outta pos shields
- a million for making it that much harder to fight outnumbered :/


CS5 in queue - check.

OMGROFLSTOMP

"We sort of mean business 75% of the time"
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#266 - 2013-08-01 21:40:23 UTC
Will Command T3s still only be able to activate a single link without fitting Command Processors? If so, it will be impossible to create combat-capable T3s that utilize their new 'diversity' (that comes at the high cost of crappy quality).

If we want to fly T3s that have two, three or more links, making use of their generalization, they will have to fit several Command Processors, which eat up all the fitting resources and leave no mid slots for tank, ewar or tackle. Command T3s will thus go extinct, because they are inferior as off-grid boosters and also bad as on-grid combat ships.

Please remember, T3s that could potentially fill many roles with different fits, are of no use to anyone, because you can have only one of the potential fits on the battlefield at any one time. To fulfil their promise of diversity, they (still) need to be able to fill several roles at the same time.

.
Eternal Error
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#267 - 2013-08-01 21:47:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternal Error
You need to nerf the raw amounts more, regardless of any future change to on-grid vs off-grid boosting or whatever. Start with a 25% reduction to the strength of every link (you've already done 25%+ with a few in the OP), and 50% would be better.

lol @ mining links still being usable inside of a force field. Seriously?
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#268 - 2013-08-01 21:54:44 UTC  |  Edited by: TinkerHell
Dear CCP,

I cant say i like these changes as i believe this always will benefit the larger gangs. The problem with links is the fact they exist.

Please reconsider.

I suggest just deleting links from game completely and reimbursing the SP. That way no one needs whine the other fleet has links, the smaller fleet wont get raped by the gang fielding a mass of logi to protect their command ship.

Everyone is happy.

Thanks.
Draconic Slayer
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#269 - 2013-08-01 22:00:50 UTC
TinkerHell wrote:
Dear CCP,

I cant say i like these changes as i believe this always will benefit the larger gangs. The problem with links is the fact they exist.

Please reconsider.

I suggest just deleting links from game completely and reimbursing the SP. That way no one needs whine the other fleet has links, the smaller fleet wont get raped by the gang fielding a mass of logi to protect their command ship.

Everyone is happy.

Thanks.


YESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYES
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#270 - 2013-08-01 22:04:16 UTC
I can't believe i just +1'd tinkerhell ;_;

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

pyropwnsu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#271 - 2013-08-01 22:04:33 UTC
TinkerHell wrote:
Dear CCP,

I cant say i like these changes as i believe this always will benefit the larger gangs. The problem with links is the fact they exist.

Please reconsider.

I suggest just deleting links from game completely and reimbursing the SP. That way no one needs whine the other fleet has links, the smaller fleet wont get raped by the gang fielding a mass of logi to protect their command ship.

Everyone is happy.

Thanks.


What this guy said. This game would be much better off without links as a whole. Rather than buffing or nerfing links, you should consider moving those bonuses into skillbooks or buff/nerf elsewhere. How has this not been changed yet?
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#272 - 2013-08-01 22:10:37 UTC
I like where the this thread is going right now.

This line of thinking has promise.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Korg Leaf
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#273 - 2013-08-01 22:11:55 UTC
Deleting links is the best way to go, they are going to keep getting nerfed into the ground until they are completely pointless to use, so be done with it, delete them and refund the SP.

It is the simplest solution here, as TinkerHell said you need link's to counter bigger gangs when doing small gang warfare (as they have links aswell) if neither side have links, then no one has any distinct advantage.

Thank you.
Aznwithbeard
OMGROFLSTOMP
#274 - 2013-08-01 22:12:48 UTC
Just seems to me this is another blow to solo/small gang PVP as a whole, and another huge leap for blob warfare.


I guess i need another subscription to fil lthe role of scout as my slow warping unwarpable while cloaked commandship and whatever ship im trying to 5v1 with wait on the gate.

Outside pos fields? awesome idea.

Would suggest maybe just flipping the percentages (5% per level for cs... 3 for t3) and/or giving the CS an ability to warp cloaked.


Again, you just keep smashing down small gang stuff.

WHERE ARE YOU KIL2.

OMGROFLSTOMP

"We sort of mean business 75% of the time"
Dewa Pedang
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#275 - 2013-08-01 22:13:34 UTC
TinkerHell wrote:
Dear CCP,

I cant say i like these changes as i believe this always will benefit the larger gangs. The problem with links is the fact they exist.

Please reconsider.

I suggest just deleting links from game completely and reimbursing the SP. That way no one needs whine the other fleet has links, the smaller fleet wont get raped by the gang fielding a mass of logi to protect their command ship.

Everyone is happy.

Thanks.




Getting sp back yumi .
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#276 - 2013-08-01 22:16:05 UTC
Aznwithbeard wrote:
Just seems to me this is another blow to solo/small gang PVP as a whole, and another huge leap for blob warfare.


I guess i need another subscription to fil lthe role of scout as my slow warping unwarpable while cloaked commandship and whatever ship im trying to 5v1 with wait on the gate.

Outside pos fields? awesome idea.

Would suggest maybe just flipping the percentages (5% per level for cs... 3 for t3) and/or giving the CS an ability to warp cloaked.


Again, you just keep smashing down small gang stuff.

WHERE ARE YOU KIL2.


Nerfing links % is bad for small gangs? You are awful.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Kintaris Zulu
Diddums Daycare
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#277 - 2013-08-01 22:16:40 UTC
TinkerHell wrote:
Dear CCP,

I cant say i like these changes as i believe this always will benefit the larger gangs. The problem with links is the fact they exist.

Please reconsider.

I suggest just deleting links from game completely and reimbursing the SP. That way no one needs whine the other fleet has links, the smaller fleet wont get raped by the gang fielding a mass of logi to protect their command ship.

Everyone is happy.

Thanks.


Totally agree, Links are good in theory but in the mass rebalancing of ships and whatnot that seems to be going on.. The biggest imbalance is still there..
Leilani Solaris
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#278 - 2013-08-01 22:16:46 UTC
I like the sound of deleting links. Eve was fine before they were introduced, it'll be fine still if they're taken out.
Jason Dunham
Andvaranaut Conglomerate
#279 - 2013-08-01 22:18:46 UTC
I think it's interesting how little of the replies here have any thought or effort put into them.

"Whine, whine, you ruined it" doesn't help them at all. Some of you have actually taken the time to look at current bonuses and fitting, and provide your opinion, which is helpful. But just saying that CCP ruined it or insulting them isn't going to help anything and isn't going to inspire any action.

One of the things you should recognize is that just because things change doesn't mean they're ruined. Just because ships don't work the way you used to use them doesn't mean they're ruined. Have some ingenuity, be flexible, and adapt to the new changes.

Above all, if you're going to provide feedback, take the time to calm down and organize your thoughts. If you think they overlooked something, politely and clearly identify it, not as an accusation, but as a question.

The other point you need to recognize is to look at the changes as a whole, not just the thread you're in. Boosts to local reps are going to affect command ships, whose use is going to be affected by the link and mindlink changes. There are still ships to be balanced, so the picture isn't complete yet. I'm sure that many of the concerns you bring up were discussed at CCP, and there may be future plans to address those concerns, or changes that will make them unnecessary.

The bottom line is, you're working with imperfect knowledge, so some humility and respect would go a long way.

(Asking for rationality and respect on the internet is probably a flawed plan, but I figured I'd give it a shot.)
Sigras
Conglomo
#280 - 2013-08-01 22:22:22 UTC
Beidorion eldwardan wrote:
Damnation:
Amarr Battlecruiser skill bonuses:
4% bonus to all Armor Resistances
10% bonus to Heavy Assault Missile and Heavy Missile velocity
Command Ships skill bonuses:
10% bonus to all Armor hitpoints
10% bonus to Heavy Assault Missile and Heavy Missile damage (Was link bonus)
Fixed Bonus:
Can fit up to three Warfare Link modules, 15% bonus to strength of Armored Warfare and Information Warfare links
Slot layout: 7 H, 4 M, 6 L , 2 turrets (-2), 5 Launchers
Fittings: 1300(-290) PWG, 500(+25) CPU <--- here is the herf
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 3500(+37) / 5000(+395) / 4300(-24)
Base shield resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 0 / 20 / 70 / 87.5
Base armor resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 50 / 35 / 62.5 / 80
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 3375 / 750s / 4.5
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 150 / 0.7(-0.004) / 13500000 / 13.10s(-0.08)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 (+25) / 100 (+75)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km (+20) / 210 / 7(+1)
Sensor strength: 22 Radar (+6)
Signature radius: 265
Cargo capacity: 645


so this means that with your so called fitting buff with the 100 powergrid reduction per module really means that a damnation only get another 10 powergrid total. nice ninja nerf there butt heads.
could you not stop the sugar coating nerfs please have the balls to stand by the crap your body ( the company ) makes and stop with the politically correct terms call a donkey by its proper name an A + double SS

ps this forum NEEED a dislike post botton SO bad

so . . . you're saying that the damnation getting an extra 10 PG is a nerf? im confused . . .