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[Odyssey 1.1] Warfare Links, Mindlinks, Gang bonuses

First post First post First post
Author
Phiksus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#241 - 2013-08-01 19:52:07 UTC
While I like these changes, I can't say I understand the talks about removing off grid boosting completely since links will actually be vulnerable after POS boosting fix. This would only create larger imbalance between solo/micro/small gangs and larger gangs. For larger gangs having command ship on the field isn't a problem, but for solo/micro gang having links on grid with the gang massively limits ship options. Ultimately this could lead to smaller gangs being more or less completely unable to engage larger gangs due to the larger gang having faster, more durable ships than those of the smaller gang. Removing off grid boosting would not in any way remove "ganking with links", since as said, larger gangs have no problem bringing the links to grid. Removing off grid boosting would therefore only result in less fights, no matter how you like to fly.

And while in general I like the changes, I can't disagree with the comments about larger fleet fights becoming more and more impossible to fight due lower ehp (less alpha needed to insta ships).
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#242 - 2013-08-01 19:52:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Eugene Kerner
Lexar Mundi wrote:
Mining links should not be given special treatment...

Give them an ORE battlecruiser size ship to run links on or something but to let them run links inside shield is pretty lame.

I agree there should be no special treatment but I disagree on a new ORE booster ship.
Orca and rorqual ARE the industry booster ships. Its a shame that CCP is holding their hand over them. booster is booster.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#243 - 2013-08-01 19:57:29 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Orca and rorqual ARE the industry booster ships. Its a shame that CCP is holding their hand over them. booster is booster.


How about if you needed to activate triage on your carrier just to give max boost. Sounds good to me.
Alyxportur
From Our Cold Dead Hands
ORPHANS OF EVE
#244 - 2013-08-01 20:01:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Alyxportur
When is ice compression going to be modified to match the increased demand to export ice out of nullsec with the Odyssey changes?
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#245 - 2013-08-01 20:02:15 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Orca and rorqual ARE the industry booster ships. Its a shame that CCP is holding their hand over them. booster is booster.


How about if you needed to activate triage on your carrier just to give max boost. Sounds good to me.


I have never seen a carrier with a booster fitted...
I dont even...

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#246 - 2013-08-01 20:06:53 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Orca and rorqual ARE the industry booster ships. Its a shame that CCP is holding their hand over them. booster is booster.


How about if you needed to activate triage on your carrier just to give max boost. Sounds good to me.


I have never seen a carrier with a booster fitted...
I dont even...


Do you know what makes these modules similar?
- Triage Module I
- Siege Module I
- Industrial Core I
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#247 - 2013-08-01 20:07:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
CCP Fozzie wrote:

All defensive (Siege and Armored) links:
T1: 4.8%
T2: 6%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 25.9%
Former max bonus: 35%

Information Warfare: Electronic Superiority bonuses to ECM and Target Painters:
T1: 6.4%
T2: 8%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 34.5%
Former max bonus: 35%

Information Warfare: Electronic Superiority bonuses to Tracking Disruptors and Sensor Damps:
T1: 4%
T2: 5%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 21.5%
Former max bonus: 21%

Information Warfare: Recon Operation:
T1: 6.4%
T2: 8%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 34.5%
Former max bonus: 35%

Information Warfare: Sensor Integrity:
T1: 9.6%
T2: 12%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 51.75%
Former max bonus: 53%

Skirmish Warfare: Evasive Maneuvers:
T1: 6.4%
T2: 8%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 34.5%
Former max bonus: 35%

Skirmish Warfare: Interdiction Maneuvers:
T1: 7.2%
T2: 9%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 38.8%
Former max bonus: 53%

Skirmish Warfare: Rapid Deployment:
T1: 5.6%
T2: 7%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 30.2%
Former max bonus: 35%

Mining Foreman: Laser Optimization and Harvester Capacitor
T1: 5%
T2: 7.5%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 42.2%
Former max bonus: 42.2%

Mining Foreman: Field Enhancement
T1: 13.6%
T2: 17%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 95.7%
Former max bonus: 95%


These numbers are not very descriptive btw.

An incursus Atm does NOT get a 35% boost to its active tanking from links right now.. It gets over 100%

This nerf does virtually nothing. Links are still about three times as powerful as they should be.


Edit: I find that my posting hasn't described well enough how mad i am at this half assed excuse of a nerf.

This doesn't even come close to fixing this **** and the numbers you give out are all smoke and mirrors to anyone that doesn't really understand how links works. Just GRRR.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#248 - 2013-08-01 20:07:27 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Orca and rorqual ARE the industry booster ships. Its a shame that CCP is holding their hand over them. booster is booster.


How about if you needed to activate triage on your carrier just to give max boost. Sounds good to me.


I have never seen a carrier with a booster fitted...
I dont even...


Do you know what makes these modules similar?
- Triage Module I
- Siege Module I
- Industrial Core I


Ok now I got you.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#249 - 2013-08-01 20:10:15 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Ok now I got you.


Yeah, have fun boosting mining op while in deployed mode.

- You can't move
- You can't warp
- You can't be remotely assisted in any way
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#250 - 2013-08-01 20:10:48 UTC
I won’t spill Merlot over the changes, we all knew they were coming and at least now you can say you did something and hopefully the masses will take their pound of flesh and move on. But I do want to address one thing;

The old T2 Mindlink is now only going to give 25% to one linkgroup and will be available in the Concord store,
The Faction Mindlink will give 25% bonuses to two Linkgroups and be available in the corresponding faction navy stores.
Right so far?

Why not make the faction Mindlink available to the Concord store as well? After all when you rebalanced faction cruisers and frigs you made them available to the FW players at a fraction of the price non-FW players would pay, you added faction Capcharges (The 25s and 50s) for FW players and the charges are still only available in their stores, back even further you added some rather nifty modules available to FW players again only in FW stores. Where’s the love to non FW pilots?

For someone not willing to tank their standings or add another toon to their account it seems rather FW pro, everyone else is screwed. I run missions and Incursions, and use the ISK to PVP and Explore but I look in the Concord store and see very little LP/ISK conversions that make it worthwhile, many times I go with the 0.8 to 1 exchange to move some LP to ISK, and here I see I will be doing it again if I want a faction Mindlink, unless it is again in the FW stores then I guess I will be getting them from the market. But really send some love to the Concord store please.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#251 - 2013-08-01 20:15:21 UTC
Now, we all know how much fozzie hates PvE, especially high end stuff like Incursions. He thinks that everyone who plays this game should have a moon goo income, or not play at all.

But he has really outdone himself.
At first run-through with the numbers, I am seeing roughly a 21% reduction in repping power for armour tankers when factoring in both the nerf to resists and to raw amour repping.

That will kill the elite armour fleets, more than likely the same for elite shield fleets, and I have no clue what the ship comp will have to change to handle the Mom's.
Will Incursions still be run, yes, or course (at least until OGB's are killed).

But the income/hour just got hammered, for the 5th time (yes, the 5th time. As Ripard Teg stated, soundwave initiated a quadruple nerf last time in his effort to destroy incursions) .

And of course, all you forum warriors backed by moon goo incomes are going to say "Yay! Kill Incursions!"
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#252 - 2013-08-01 20:18:00 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

All defensive (Siege and Armored) links:
T1: 4.8%
T2: 6%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 25.9%
Former max bonus: 35%

Information Warfare: Electronic Superiority bonuses to ECM and Target Painters:
T1: 6.4%
T2: 8%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 34.5%
Former max bonus: 35%

Information Warfare: Electronic Superiority bonuses to Tracking Disruptors and Sensor Damps:
T1: 4%
T2: 5%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 21.5%
Former max bonus: 21%

Information Warfare: Recon Operation:
T1: 6.4%
T2: 8%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 34.5%
Former max bonus: 35%

Information Warfare: Sensor Integrity:
T1: 9.6%
T2: 12%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 51.75%
Former max bonus: 53%

Skirmish Warfare: Evasive Maneuvers:
T1: 6.4%
T2: 8%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 34.5%
Former max bonus: 35%

Skirmish Warfare: Interdiction Maneuvers:
T1: 7.2%
T2: 9%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 38.8%
Former max bonus: 53%

Skirmish Warfare: Rapid Deployment:
T1: 5.6%
T2: 7%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 30.2%
Former max bonus: 35%

Mining Foreman: Laser Optimization and Harvester Capacitor
T1: 5%
T2: 7.5%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 42.2%
Former max bonus: 42.2%

Mining Foreman: Field Enhancement
T1: 13.6%
T2: 17%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 95.7%
Former max bonus: 95%


These numbers are not very descriptive btw.

An incursus Atm does NOT get a 35% boost to its active tanking from links right now.. It gets over 100%

This nerf does virtually nothing. Links are still about three times as powerful as they should be.


To put them into perspective, the current boosts increase the rep power of an incursus about 125% (or less depending on your fit, as gang links and modules and rigs can all suffer stacking penalties).

With the change, the max armor boosts will increase your incursus' rep power by about 70%. (or less depending on stacking penalties).

This is a significant reduction, but it is still more powerful than anything you can get by drugs or even pirate implants. IMO, that means, since they can be provided while off grid, they are still too potent!
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#253 - 2013-08-01 20:19:43 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

All defensive (Siege and Armored) links:
T1: 4.8%
T2: 6%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 25.9%
Former max bonus: 35%

Information Warfare: Electronic Superiority bonuses to ECM and Target Painters:
T1: 6.4%
T2: 8%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 34.5%
Former max bonus: 35%

Information Warfare: Electronic Superiority bonuses to Tracking Disruptors and Sensor Damps:
T1: 4%
T2: 5%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 21.5%
Former max bonus: 21%

Information Warfare: Recon Operation:
T1: 6.4%
T2: 8%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 34.5%
Former max bonus: 35%

Information Warfare: Sensor Integrity:
T1: 9.6%
T2: 12%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 51.75%
Former max bonus: 53%

Skirmish Warfare: Evasive Maneuvers:
T1: 6.4%
T2: 8%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 34.5%
Former max bonus: 35%

Skirmish Warfare: Interdiction Maneuvers:
T1: 7.2%
T2: 9%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 38.8%
Former max bonus: 53%

Skirmish Warfare: Rapid Deployment:
T1: 5.6%
T2: 7%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 30.2%
Former max bonus: 35%

Mining Foreman: Laser Optimization and Harvester Capacitor
T1: 5%
T2: 7.5%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 42.2%
Former max bonus: 42.2%

Mining Foreman: Field Enhancement
T1: 13.6%
T2: 17%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 95.7%
Former max bonus: 95%


These numbers are not very descriptive btw.

An incursus Atm does NOT get a 35% boost to its active tanking from links right now.. It gets over 100%

This nerf does virtually nothing. Links are still about three times as powerful as they should be.


To put them into perspective, the current boosts increase the rep power of an incursus about 125% (or less depending on your fit, as gang links and modules and rigs can all suffer stacking penalties).

With the change, the max armor boosts will increase your incursus' rep power by about 70%. (or less depending on stacking penalties).

This is a significant reduction, but it is still more powerful than anything you can get by drugs or even pirate implants. IMO, that means, since they can be provided while off grid, they are still too potent!


One vengence with links will still "solo" 2-3 without links

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#254 - 2013-08-01 20:21:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
All defensive (Siege and Armored) links:
T1: 14%
T2: 16%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 24%
Former max bonus: 35%

Information Warfare: Electronic Superiority bonuses to ECM and Target Painters:
T1: 16%
T2: 18%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 27%
Former max bonus: 35%

Information Warfare: Electronic Superiority bonuses to Tracking Disruptors and Sensor Damps:
T1: 10%
T2: 12%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 18%
Former max bonus: 21%

Information Warfare: Recon Operation:
T1: 16%
T2: 18%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 27%
Former max bonus: 35%

Information Warfare: Sensor Integrity:
T1: 20%
T2: 22%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 33%
Former max bonus: 53%

Skirmish Warfare: Evasive Maneuvers:
T1: 17%
T2: 19%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 28.5%
Former max bonus: 35%

Skirmish Warfare: Interdiction Maneuvers:
T1: 17%
T2: 20%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 30%
Former max bonus: 53%

Skirmish Warfare: Rapid Deployment:
T1: 14%
T2: 16%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 24%
Former max bonus: 35%

The four Warfare Specialist skill bonus changed from the current 100% bonus per level (after the first level) to 5% bonus per level.
Mindlink bonus reduced from +50% to +15%
Powergrid need of all warfare links modules decreased by 100.

This is more like what i would like to see and think is much more balanced at least until OGB is removed anyway.
And its much easier to understand how you get the end result on the bonus
15% CS ..15% mindlink... 20% from skills

Although still not sure what the difference is in the T1 navy and T2 mindlinks

T1 mindlink - 10%
T2 mindlink -15%
Navy mindlink - 12% bonus to the two racial links

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#255 - 2013-08-01 20:25:45 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Now, we all know how much fozzie hates PvE, especially high end stuff like Incursions. He thinks that everyone who plays this game should have a moon goo income, or not play at all.

But he has really outdone himself.
At first run-through with the numbers, I am seeing roughly a 21% reduction in repping power for armour tankers when factoring in both the nerf to resists and to raw amour repping.

That will kill the elite armour fleets, more than likely the same for elite shield fleets, and I have no clue what the ship comp will have to change to handle the Mom's.
Will Incursions still be run, yes, or course (at least until OGB's are killed).

But the income/hour just got hammered, for the 5th time (yes, the 5th time. As Ripard Teg stated, soundwave initiated a quadruple nerf last time in his effort to destroy incursions) .

And of course, all you forum warriors backed by moon goo incomes are going to say "Yay! Kill Incursions!"


A couple counter points:
A.) Local reps are getting a 15% boost at the same time armor links are getting nerfed. Although that's not relevant to logistics based reps, it means ships like the vengeance, incursus, etc... that utilize local reps will still have major repping power.

B.) Shield links are getting hit just as much as armor links.

C.) CCP should balance ship stats and mechanics around Player vs Player interactions. They can then nerf or improve NPC stats to make your PvE content viable again.




Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#256 - 2013-08-01 20:28:55 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


C.) CCP should balance ship stats and mechanics around Player vs Player interactions. They can then nerf or improve NPC stats to make your PvE content viable again.



True, but they never do.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Cpt Arareb
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#257 - 2013-08-01 20:36:50 UTC
Warfare links (other than mining links) can no longer be activated inside a starbase forcefield

and so it begins.. TwistedTwistedTwistedTwistedTwistedTwistedTwistedTwistedTwistedTwistedTwisted

Dobriy
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#258 - 2013-08-01 20:47:25 UTC
I still need to digest the command ship changes but my only gripe so far is that I feel like the command ship bonus should remain per-level. As someone who spent the time to take Command Ships to V, I feel like it's too easy to make a command ships pilot now that is equally as effective.
Jedediah Arndtz
Jedediah Arndtz Corporation
#259 - 2013-08-01 20:54:51 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Now, we all know how much fozzie hates PvE, especially high end stuff like Incursions. He thinks that everyone who plays this game should have a moon goo income, or not play at all.

But he has really outdone himself.
At first run-through with the numbers, I am seeing roughly a 21% reduction in repping power for armour tankers when factoring in both the nerf to resists and to raw amour repping.

That will kill the elite armour fleets, more than likely the same for elite shield fleets, and I have no clue what the ship comp will have to change to handle the Mom's.
Will Incursions still be run, yes, or course (at least until OGB's are killed).

But the income/hour just got hammered, for the 5th time (yes, the 5th time. As Ripard Teg stated, soundwave initiated a quadruple nerf last time in his effort to destroy incursions) .

And of course, all you forum warriors backed by moon goo incomes are going to say "Yay! Kill Incursions!"



Pretty much. And since when has CCP ever really given two ***** about PVE'ers? I highly doubt they'll actually bother balancing the NPCs.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#260 - 2013-08-01 20:56:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

All defensive (Siege and Armored) links:
T1: 4.8%
T2: 6%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 25.9%
Former max bonus: 35%

Information Warfare: Electronic Superiority bonuses to ECM and Target Painters:
T1: 6.4%
T2: 8%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 34.5%
Former max bonus: 35%

Information Warfare: Electronic Superiority bonuses to Tracking Disruptors and Sensor Damps:
T1: 4%
T2: 5%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 21.5%
Former max bonus: 21%

Information Warfare: Recon Operation:
T1: 6.4%
T2: 8%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 34.5%
Former max bonus: 35%

Information Warfare: Sensor Integrity:
T1: 9.6%
T2: 12%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 51.75%
Former max bonus: 53%

Skirmish Warfare: Evasive Maneuvers:
T1: 6.4%
T2: 8%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 34.5%
Former max bonus: 35%

Skirmish Warfare: Interdiction Maneuvers:
T1: 7.2%
T2: 9%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 38.8%
Former max bonus: 53%

Skirmish Warfare: Rapid Deployment:
T1: 5.6%
T2: 7%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 30.2%
Former max bonus: 35%

Mining Foreman: Laser Optimization and Harvester Capacitor
T1: 5%
T2: 7.5%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 42.2%
Former max bonus: 42.2%

Mining Foreman: Field Enhancement
T1: 13.6%
T2: 17%
Max bonus per link with all modifiers: 95.7%
Former max bonus: 95%


These numbers are not very descriptive btw.

An incursus Atm does NOT get a 35% boost to its active tanking from links right now.. It gets over 100%

This nerf does virtually nothing. Links are still about three times as powerful as they should be.


Edit: I find that my posting hasn't described well enough how mad i am at this half assed excuse of a nerf.

This doesn't even come close to fixing this **** and the numbers you give out are all smoke and mirrors to anyone that doesn't really understand how links works. Just GRRR.


I'm really hoping these changes are a prelude to bringing it on grid. They work better then. Entirely agree that the changes in OP aren't nearly strong enough now. Fozzie's last comment was encouraging.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.