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[Odyssey 1.1] Command Ships

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Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2013-08-01 15:25:57 UTC
Rall Mekin wrote:
To be honest, with HAM range being so limited, the Sleipnir has a huge advantage over the Claymore. What about changing one of the bonuses of the Claymore to be a flight time bonus or missile velocity bonus? I realize the power of an explosion velocity bonus, but, if its serious going to be considered as a HAM ship, HAM's need a little more range in my opinion.

HAM's, in general, are still neglected a lot in PVP except in wormhole space, mainly because basically all short range weapons with similar damage output have better range. HAM legions are popular in wormhole space, but that's because most fighting is done, well, on a wormhole. It will see a lot of use in hole, I believe, but I don't think your going to see HAM Claymore's actually used in PVP very often.

I think the Minmatar just have a good ratting, active, PVE heavy missile boat now.


HAM's have a better effective Range than most Medium sized turret weapons, though they do not have the fall off to play with that most of them have either.



The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Luscius Uta
#122 - 2013-08-01 15:25:57 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Grarr Dexx wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
It's not being changed.


Given up on trying to justify the Astarte nerf?


Astarte is fine l2p Lol


It's fine for the purpose you've intended, so I suppose people should stop using it for other intents, such as ratting or solo PvP. Can we stop calling EVE a sandbox please?
Also it still has a dumb falloff bonus.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#123 - 2013-08-01 15:26:23 UTC
glepp wrote:
Nice changes, but why keep the local rep bonuses? These are gang ships as defined by their role, and local reps are useless in any gang setting. Change it for a hitpoint bonus instead to differentiate from the resist bonus on amarr/caldari.

As it stands it's a logical contradiction that means armor fleets won't have skirmish links when you remove off-grid boosts.

in the sense that info/skirmish is for small ship play, the local rep vs fleet tank cs boosts makes sense.

beautiful ships such as the claymore and nighthawk might die, but you get to fly them first.

sorry i just can't get over how beautiful the kaalakiota drake is going to be. it's a dream come true. i just sold my vulture for a nighthawk in jita.

Help, I can't download EVE

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Sushi Nardieu
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2013-08-01 15:29:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Sushi Nardieu
Command Ships don't feel individualized or focused anymore. They all do similar things even if certain boost types they have are "secondary" to their race. If you, Fozzie, want to make T2 ships truly specialized then just give them a bonus to one link type.

Command ships feels like a blob of the same ships. The main difference between them all is the weapon type. For example, the EOS and Astarte both have armour repairing bonuses. This is hardly exciting for what should be 2 distinct ships.

Certain CS will have resist bonuses across the board. This will be a clear indication of what CS ships will be fielded in large gang warfare and which will not (non-resist bonus CS). This does not feel like the ethos of where EVE should go.

If anything CS are becoming much more generalized than even their T3 counterparts. Unless there is more information to be revealed or data to be made clear, that is what the current iteration feels like.

Secondly, T3s are being thrown under the bus here. Why is there the need to make them generalized ships? This feels like an outdated concept because the majority of the fitting meta is designed to be specialized.

This flat rate 15% bonus Fozzie. Too easy. Make it per level and make CSV a valuable skill.

Making them equal to T2 ships does not feel wrong but making them worse than T2 ships is just weird. I understand that certain modules on T3 ships are just overpowered and certain ones are useless. Warfare Processor at 5% per lvl is overpowered but 2% per lvl feels underpowered.

Also, T3 boosting. Either take it out completely or make it competitive, is what I have in mind.

The Guns of Knowledge 
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#125 - 2013-08-01 15:31:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Andendare
I still think either the Damnation should lose one of its double tank bonuses or the other Command ships should be complimented similarly. Otherwise, the tanking potential on the Damnation is going to be too appealing to use an Abso or any of the Gallente boats in an armor fleet.

Similarly, one of the shield CSs should be compensated with a shield hp bonus to give shield fleet FCs an option.

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Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2013-08-01 15:31:35 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
The damnation still has the 10% HP bonus really OP comes to mind....

Quote:
Also was expecting more HP


Are you sure?

Quote:
EOS has a Hybrid tracking bonus why?


It's brawler? It uses blasters?
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#127 - 2013-08-01 15:32:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
This is a T2 specialized command ship.

Specialized in what: COMMAND

Definition in real world: http://www.answers.com/topic/command-ship

Quote:
Command ships serve as the flagships of the commander of a fleet. They provide communications, office space, and accommodations for a fleet commander and his staff, and serve to coordinate fleet activities.

(...) command ship features the command and control components prevalent on landing ships (command) and also feature the capability to land troops and equipment. These forces will be slightly less than on a pure landing ship due to the nature of the ship as a command vessel (...)


In Eve a Command Ship should be used by a fleet commander (FC).

What a FC does: commands the fleet, calls targets. It should be the last one to die.

What these ships should focus to support the FC Job and support his role of command:

- Give fleet bonus
- Durable (best tank and buffer tank in a fleet)
- Excellent electronic bonus (to allow him to not get jammed/damped easily by no electronic module and allow him to keep calling targets)
edit: scanning / probing

Everything else is secondary, the command ship should not be a ship built to have a good firepower but when I look at the command ship bonuses I only see DPS bonus related stuff instead of COMMAND related stuff.

Get your priorities strait, this is a COMMAND SHIP or a COMBAT SHIP?

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
Boltorano
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2013-08-01 15:34:13 UTC
Sushi Nardieu wrote:
Command Ships don't feel individualized or focused anymore. They all do similar things even if certain boost types they have are "secondary" to their race. If you, Fozzie, want to make T2 ships truly specialized then just give them a bonus to one link type..


I'd like to see an Eos in space more than once a decade.
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#129 - 2013-08-01 15:35:24 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
I still think either the Damnation should lose one of its double tank bonuses or the other Command ships should be complimented similarly. Otherwise, the tanking potential on the Damnation is going to be too appealing to use an Astarte or any of the Gallente boats in an armor fleet.


I didn't know large fleet fights were Gallente thing.

Quote:
Similarly, one of the shield CSs should be compensated with a shield hp bonus to give shield fleet FCs an option.


Check Vulture.
Die Warzau
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#130 - 2013-08-01 15:37:02 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
How much of an effect will the decrease in number of turrets/increase in DPS bonuses have on the DPS of command ships like the Sleipnir/Astarte/Abso?


You can look at in terms of effective turrets.

Sleipnir goes from 11.6666 effective turrets to 11.25
Astarte goes from 10.9 effective turrets to 10
Abso stays at 10 effective turrets

Hey Fozzie, where are you getting 11.25 for the Sleipnir? I get the same answer as you for the "before" picture:
7 turrets * 1.25 (+25% damage) / 0.75 (+25% RoF) = 11.66

But for after I only get:
5 turrets * 2 (+100% damage) = 10
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2013-08-01 15:38:09 UTC
Die Warzau wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
How much of an effect will the decrease in number of turrets/increase in DPS bonuses have on the DPS of command ships like the Sleipnir/Astarte/Abso?


You can look at in terms of effective turrets.

Sleipnir goes from 11.6666 effective turrets to 11.25
Astarte goes from 10.9 effective turrets to 10
Abso stays at 10 effective turrets

Hey Fozzie, where are you getting 11.25 for the Sleipnir? I get the same answer as you for the "before" picture:
7 turrets * 1.25 (+25% damage) / 0.75 (+25% RoF) = 11.66

But for after I only get:
5 turrets * 2 (+100% damage) = 10



The two damage bonuses are multiplicative, 1.5 * 1.5 = 2.25 = +125% damage.
Highsec Clarke
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#132 - 2013-08-01 15:41:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Highsec Clarke
OMG! Fail! Let CCP Rise do the job... and Eos/Ishtar bonus on specific Drones makes the other useless, while all other ships channel all their bonuses into one type of weapon... I really hope that Armor Rep will work someday... but it seems not to be in the near future... We wont see any Gallente command ships in the near future...
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2013-08-01 15:43:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Each race should have one command ship that has a bonus to local reps and one that has a passive/buffer tank bonus!

Other than that, the changes look good but i'm no command ship expert What?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#134 - 2013-08-01 15:46:28 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Highsec Clarke wrote:
OMG! Fail! Let CCP Rise do the job... and Eos/Ishtar bonus on specific Drones makes the other useless, while all other ships channel all their bonuses into one type of weapon... I really hope that Armor Rep will work someday... but it seems not to be in the near future... We wont see any Gallente command ships in the near future...


Hell no.
Edit: No offense Rise >.>

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Hathrul
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
#135 - 2013-08-01 15:47:06 UTC
so minmatar and gallente command ships get a local rep bonus which makes them useless in fleet fights and reduce them to small scale fights with active tank or off-grid boosting

i thought you wanted to get rid of off-grid boosting? why cant all races have 1 local tank boost and 1 buffer tank version so all races have a viable choice for either situation
CM Abimees
State War Academy
Caldari State
#136 - 2013-08-01 15:48:34 UTC
Hey Fozzie! I see you improving C-ships but what about command strategic cruisers? I have trained one of my toon only for boosting with strategic cruisers and i have wasted 30 mil IP for that. But with those changes my char is pretty useless. Can you give me skill reimbursment to fix my toon?
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#137 - 2013-08-01 15:48:42 UTC
Looks nice Smile

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#138 - 2013-08-01 15:49:47 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Any chance of looking at the skill requirements to fly these things? Nine months of training just to undock one, over a year for Command Ships V and full effectiveness is frankly absurd, and the majority of those SP will not provide any benefit to you the vast majority of the time.


We want there to be a variety of different ships for people to fly that have different skill levels. Command ships require a lot of training, this is part of their design. Until that training is complete there's a lot of other options including the T1 battlecruisers or Navy Battlecruisers, both of which are a lot of fun in combat and are very capable of providing helpful gang links to your fleetmates.


yes but forcing say an amarr CS pilot to train lv5 skills that are of no use is silly .. armoured warfare is the only skill that should be mandatory not training skirmish.. siege.. info..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2013-08-01 15:50:00 UTC
Hathrul wrote:
so minmatar and gallente command ships get a local rep bonus which makes them useless in fleet fights and reduce them to small scale fights with active tank or off-grid boosting

i thought you wanted to get rid of off-grid boosting? why cant all races have 1 local tank boost and 1 buffer tank version so all races have a viable choice for either situation

Gallente and Minmatar get local rep bonuses yes they both also get skirmish warfare links which makes them better for small scale fights, kind of like local reps

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#140 - 2013-08-01 15:50:27 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Sarmatiko wrote:
Also glad that Marauders are safe, for now..

/Maniacal Laugh
You madman. Don't hurt my Vargur.