Ships & Modules

pff first one is just a multiplyer along y axis, second , is rectangles depend on which ammo you use( if tracking isnt calculated)
dunno which app most ppl use for graps but should be easy as only 2 operands need to be changed

Humm...

Comparing this Tempest fit:


[Tempest, New Setup 1]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Warp Disruptor II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5

To this Mega fit:


[Megathron, New Setup 1]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Warp Scrambler II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Ogre II x5

EDIT: Throwing in an Apoc below just for comparison. Won't post the fit, as we'll probably run out of characters.

*All three have similar EHP
*Mega and 'pest both have a heavy neut; tempest gets a medium neut as well. Apoc has no utility highs.
*Tempest gets slightly more fitting versatility with more mid slots; Mega and Apoc are somewhat constrained.
*Mega's base DPS is 1148, Tempest's is 890, Apoc's is 810.

Now, let's run some DPS graphs:

*The Mega's optimal is 5.5km. After that, its dps begins slowly decreasing throughout its 16km falloff.
*Apoc has a 24km optimal with a 13km falloff.
*Tempest has a 3km optimal with a 24km falloff.

Assuming that both ships are firing at a stationary target with no transversal:

*The Mega experiences a much greater falloff curve than the Tempest; however, its DPS never actually dips below that of a Tempest, despite coming very close. This is probably due to nice ogre damage projection. The Apoc's DPS starts out lower than the other two, but doesn't curve for a long time, due to massive optimal.
*At around 17km, the Apocalypse surpasses both other ships in DPS, due to large laser optimal.
*At around 27km, the Tempest is very close to the Mega in terms of DPS, but doesn't actually surpass it. Apoc is still superior to both.
*After this, the Mega's DPS is pretty much entirely Ogres; the Tempest still does some DPS with falloffed AC's and Hammerheads, but the Mega's Ogres actually do more DPS The Apoc falls below the Mega in DPS at the 37km mark, as its lasers are now in deep falloff; it dips below the Tempest at 53km.
*All ship's DPS drop off completely at 55km, as they exit drone control range.

Now let's assume that the Mega loads null, the Apoc loads scorch, and the Tempest loads barrage, to compare ranged abilities:

*The Tempest now does 742 DPS at point-blank range, while the Mega deals 980 and the Apoc 678.
*Similar story to the last graph. The mega experiences a sharp drop after optimal, while the Tempest's decline is more gradual. However, the Tempest never overtakes the Mega, only coming very close at the 40km mark. The Apoc surpasses the DPS of both ships at the 20km mark, with no falloff curve at all.
*Then, once again, it's a case of Ogres vs. deep-fallof AC's and Hammerheads, which Ogres once again win, until 55km, where both ships stop doing any dps. The Apoc, however, is still going strong, doing FULL OPTIMAL RANGE dps until 60km, at which point it rapidly declines.

These numbers are after the winter expansion's hybrid buff, and I'm actually pleasantly surprised. The Tempest, while being faster and more versatile, actually does less DPS than the Mega, as it's intended to. The Apoc has the least close range DPS capabilities, and little versatility, but has the best ranged DPS, with epic laser optimals. I'll do some more number crunching later, comparing rails and arties and other ship types.

One more thing to note, is that this is against a stationary, BS-sized target. If they were to fire on a moving, smaller target, the Mega would probably do even more DPS, due to blasters being heavily tracking buffed.

Conclusion from this post: Close-range fit Megas, Apocs, and Tempests are all decently balanced with each other, imo.

also 5 ogre II vs 5 hammers II .... yeah ogres would decimate those pesky tacklers i still cant see which pilot would bring 5 ogres only
+ mega would be in more cap trouble
+ tempest is faster a little bit
+ tempest has a disruptor mega only has a scrambler as it doesnt have enough cpu for disruptor even with this fit mega needs+1% implant for cpu, tempest nothing
+the best part is that tempest can controll the distance easily due to 2 vs 1web ,so the tempest can basically warp out anytime if it is 1v1
+and the mega wont be able to do much vs smaller targets

if tempest change 1 web for a tc and meganoob wont bring 5 ogres then tempest would do more dmg than the mega over 14km, hmm very balanced indeed....

There's your problem right there. You're comparing the mega to the apoc, when the 2 have nothing in common aside from their tiers. You have to look at the roles the ships perform and compare them from there, like how for sniping platforms you would compare the apoc to the rokh, not the raven.

It's the geddon you want to compare the mega to, as they are fit/flown in very similar ways, with nearly identical slot layouts/drone bays. I'll save you the time and give you a breakdown of the numbers I remember off the top of my head (go digging through my old forum posts if you want more detailed analyses):

Mega does ~8% more DPS in its optimal (I think it was 12 without drones being factored in)
Geddon matches the mega's DPS at 8km
A mega with null will literally NEVER do more damage than a geddon, at any range.
There is a window in which tracking becomes a problem for the geddon but not the mega (assuming they're shooting each other). This window is less than 1km wide and occurs at about 4km, and it assumes that the mega has a web but the geddon does not.
They have very similar ehp (I think the geddon had 10% more)

Even after factoring in resists, in a 1v1 ignoring range and tracking, the geddon would down a mega before the mega would a down a geddon (It was EXTREMELY close IIRC, like a 2 second difference)

And all that's in a 1v1, where the mega should theoretically DESTROY a geddon, which is much more suited for gang/fleet warfare due to much better damage projection (blasters get exponentially worse the more people you have in fleet)

Why wouldn't you bring Ogres? If you have so much as one fleetmate supporting you, ogres are just plain superior to hammers. Maybe if you're completely solo you'll want to bring hammers, but in a 1v1 situation, sure, that won't make too much difference since you're not going to be fighting from out of your optimal anyway.

In the same post, you say how it's a GOOD thing that the Tempest can fit a long point, then go on to say how it can control more range with dual webs. Sadly for your argument, a short scram helps with range control far more than a second web does, so one of those points is moot, your choice which.

That last point is just utterly stupid, neutron blasters already have better tracking than 800mm arties. After the tracking buff, they will utterly decimate smaller things which AC's will miss entirely.

The only thing you have going for you is the Tempest's slightly superior speed. So it's basically speed and switchable damage types vs. More DPS.

Comments:
- Megas and Apocs aren't at all the same ship. You should look to the Geddon and Mega for that comparison.
- The Tempest and the Mega are a better comparison, but I feel you're being overly generous to hybrids with it. Damage type selection, that 5th mid, the two utility highs, and its better mobility are actually really big deals for example.
- I'm not sold on the Tempest fit. I tend to like comparing fits I'd actually use.
- I'm not sold on the heavy neut Mega fits and it feels like you shoe horned it on just for the sake of an "even" comparison. I don't think I'll ever like the heavy neut mega fits but I know they were all the rage for a while.

All that said, I stand by what I said: seeing as how projectiles and lasers are on a semi even footing I think it'd be a massive mistake to nerf projectiles without first making sure Hybrids are in a good place.

-Liang

Hey when did you sneak back? :)

congratulations! you have reach a new level! here, take a cookie.

indeed. it's not that pulses have quite the huge ranges and dish good damage (it can be silly tho, try to setup a pulse apoc for 80-90km ranges. it's doable), nor it's not that AC's are very flexible and can provide slowly, but steadily decline of damage over quite the range, it's just that blasters simply don't do enough damage for the ranges they have, nor the ships are mobile enough for such a short range weapon.


some of us don't mind blasters having the shortest range of them all. if any some even would like an even shorter range if they could simply melt some guys' face at spit range if they had a weapon that could do it and a ship that could reach it.

it is silly indeed. in fact, it's one of those things that qualify as "broken". pulse apocs can 2-shot AF's from 100km (for example), even if transversal is maintained at highest. why should you be able to do this kind of DPS and have this kind of tracking with a large medium range turret?

good thing there's talk of Scorch getting nerfed.